Kazakhstan Diplomacy

They might have obtained Mathematics already, and forgotten about our deal. I mean, it's been a while since we've talked with them so I was worried that their SATURN diplo thread or whatever system they have would have fallen to the 2nd page or be forgotten, etc.

DMOC: I don't quite understand what you mean. Kazs have Mathematics already and they won't forget our deal. We owe Feudalism for them.

Yeah, exactly. If they don't provide Maths to us, they ain't getting Feudalism. And that would be a far bigger loss to them than us, since we can easily trade elsewhere for Maths.

You know, maybe it might be worth us considering breaking our word on the Feudalism deal.



Seriously now: What have we got to lose? MS, Kaz and Cav are clearly allied already, and with their threesome churning through the tech tree they'll have little further need for trading with us. And I doubt SANCTA will think any less of us for denying their rivals a powerful military tech.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think we should consider this option. We have nothing left to lose; the three allies are clearly going to attack us at some point anyway, so our "hurt reputation" will mean next to nothing. And honestly, the circumstances have changed drastically from what they used to be, so I feel like we'd be half-justified in being jerks. We didn't think that Feudalism would become the property of three teams when we originally made the deal.

Hey, if we wanted to be complete dicks, we could even nicely request Maths from Kaz a few turns early! Then, a couple of turns later when they request Feudalism - we refuse them!

What do you guys think? Am I being too radical here? Usually I'd be strongly against breaking our reputation under any circumstances, but in this case I feel like we really haven't got much to lose, and a lot to gain. (I guess noticing that MS have indeed joined with Kaz/Cav while giving us the silent treatment has really pissed me off too, which contributed slightly to this outburst. )

Anyway, do share your thoughts.

Let's ask for Maths 2-3 turns early. Fine with me. We really should start trading all the techs we've got with SANCTA RIGHT NOW, rather than later.

We should probably still research Feudalism, so we can defend with longbows.

Asking it early in return for what?

Bleh, I wouldn't go back on a deal after the other side has already held up their side of the bargain. That's disgusting. Maybe next time we should add a "oh and this trade is valid on the terms that you do not go in an alliance that excludes us in the meantime" clause to our deals before crying about getting left out.

Plus they know where we live and I doubt even longbows would be strong enough to handle the backlash of what would soon follow that kind of action.

I wouldn't break our word. Quite bad trade with current info, but we'll just had to live with it.

We could try to renegotiate the deal, but I don't have hgh hopes that it would succeed.

Okay, I guess the consensus is to leave the deal as is. I wasn't sure it was a good idea anyway.

I totally support Parkin's view on this. We should be complete dicks. After all, they'll invade us eventually.

Actually, the plan right now is to continue with the deal, but see the SANCTA diplomacy thread for more information.

Proposed message to Kaz in light of the SANCTA situation:

Greetings Kazakhstan,

It has been brought to our attention that there has been a disagreement between yourselves and SANCTA over the future of a barbarian city. Though it is technically not our business, the citizens of SANCTA are close friends of ours, and we do not wish for their efforts regarding this barbarian city to go to waste.

Unfortunately, we have recently heard that you intend to destroy the barbarian city in question, which will have the effect of sabotaging SANCTA's efforts to date. Therefore, we would like to offer an incentive for you to allow SANCTA to capture the city in question: we will withhold our deal for Feudalism until the barbarian city passes into SANCTA's hands.

As soon as the conflict is resolved and the barbarian city passes into SANCTA's hands, we will send Feudalism to you. However, until this time is reached, we will postpone sending Feudalism as long as necessary. Be warned that any attempt to destroy the city in question - successful or not - will result in us Feudalism being indefinitely denied to you.

We hope that our incentive will encourage you to reconsider your next move in the conflict over the barbarian city.

Regards,
Lord Parkin of Saturn

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I hate this blackmailing. It leads to troublesome desicions especially, if they retreat from destroying the city and probably forces us to still betray them. I would really hate to deliver Feudalism to Kazs after we've blackmailed them like this. Of course Kazs message to SANCTA seemed quite definite so it might be they are not retreating no matter what we do or demand.

I would formulate the message along these lines:
* we're friends with SANCTA
* we follow closely what is happening concerning barb city
* our relationship with SANCTA might affect to our possibilities to keep our word with you

Furthermore I would ask SANCTA's opinion/responce to Kaz message before sending anything to Kazs.

Message to SANCTA should include:
Is SANCTA going to take the city no matter what and what do they expect from us? What do they suspect to happen when they take the city e.g. will Kazs start war immediately and how should we respond to that. When would this war begin? We should also tell how we presumably approach Kazs, if we can agree on that.

See some answers from SANCTA here.

I'm happy with the blackmailing, so long we don't ever give them feudalism. Even if they retreat, we don't do it. Should be fun. Death to Kazhaks. Either way, we should soon get ready for war.

I say send the message as it is.

I agree with Dux.

I like the idea of blackmailing Kaz, and then not giving them Feudalism at all. It's no secret that the game has turned into a 2 vs 3 situation anyway.

Ehh, I don't like blackmailing or going back on our offer.

We have like no hammers and are seriously in no position to defend ourselves. Why the heck would you start becoming unagreeable with another team that has technically done us no wrong, expecially when you're essentially defenseless?!

I mean we could ask nicely (I wouldn't outright tell them we are close friends with SANCTA when we know they dislike them, possibly due to SANTCA declaring war on them) but we don't need to threaten them with feudalism. It won't take long for them to get it themselves anyway and then kill us.

Joshua368 said:

I mean we could ask nicely (I wouldn't outright tell them we are close friends with SANCTA when we know they dislike them, possibly due to SANTCA declaring war on them) but we don't need to threaten them with feudalism. It won't take long for them to get it themselves anyway and then kill us.

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If we're going to ask something (even nicely) from Kazs, it would be pretty evident we're friends with SANCTA, even if we don't include it in to the message.

I still don't see the benefits of blackmailing Kazs. SANCTA's response including threatening with war seems very strong ultimatum. If SANCTA wants to add something to their ultimatum concerning this, I suggest they say that we are friends and they'll do their best to convince us to give up Feudalism trade.

I suggest we politely tell Kazs about our relationship to SANCTA and request them to give up the barb city. It is probably unnescessary to mention Feudalism in our message. It is better to let them to read it between the lines. If they ignore, we have a half decent reason to cancel Feudalism deal.

Kaz are eventually going to attempt to kill us anyway. My view is that slightly soured relations with us won't change much.

However, if we're not going to pull out the Feudalism card, I don't think it's worth bothering to message Kaz at all. Otherwise they'll just think we sound meek any pathetic... "Hi Kaz, please do what SANCTA wants because we wouldn't be very happy otherwise". I just can't see it having any effect - we'll be wasting our time and making ourselves look a bit silly.

I'll go with the majority, but I think if we don't want to pull the Feudalism card then we should inform SANCTA to just keep messaging on their own. (I do like Plako's suggestion to tell SANCTA to say they're aware that there's a tech arrangement between us and Kaz, and that they will do their best to convince us to cancel it if anything goes awry. It sounds more reasonable and less dickish coming from them, yet it still gets a very firm point across.)

I like Lord Parkin's latest suggestion i.e. no message to Kazs, but SANCTA can add feudalism threat to their message.

A rather amusing message from Kaz:

Greetings Team Saturn,

We are writing to tell you we are having some difficulties with SANCTA. They are threatening a confrontation if we don't cede some strategic territory to them. Right now we kind of feel like Czechoslovakia having to decide whether or not to give up the Sudetenland...

Anyways, we are hoping you will not aid the Ninjas with tech trades in the near future. We'd also like to explore more trades between our two teams. How is progress going on feudalism? Do you know what turn we will be able to complete the math for feudalism trade?

We're not sure how much exploration you've managed. It would be nice if someone invented maps. The reports we have from our own explorers indicate your country is near three others and the land of the Ninjas (aka SANCTA) lies between your country and ours. Do these reports jive with your own?

donsig of Kazakhstan

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Sure guys, we're really going to dump SANCTA and wait for you and your alliance to finish us off.

This kind of message really does make me want us to be much stronger and firmer in our diplomacy with Kaz. It rather annoys me that they think we'd be stupid enough to sacrifice our chances in this game by refusing to trade with the one nation friendly to us, when the other three nations are multiple techs ahead of us. What the heck do they take us for?