Furor Teutonicus = Poor choice

JohnBlack

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I'm just gonna put it out there. Furor Teutonicus, with all its barbarian bonuses, seems like a strange choice for Germany's "unique ability".

Granted, in ancient times, the region today known as Germany was little more than a collection of unruly patches of land held by various tribes - or barbarians. But as a political and administrative unit, the German Empire or nation state is distinctly modern. Of which I'm sure most of you are aware, the formal unification of Germany occurred in 1871.

So to the point: It is my opinion that Germany's "unique ability" should be one that reflects the ethnocultural/national/imperial traits more commonly associated with the modern conception of a unified Germany.

Without too much detail, some suggestions spring to mind:
1. + X amount of production or X percentage increase in production from cities connected to the capital by railroad.
2. X additional percentage increase in city productivity, either from improvements (factory etc) or from technologies. General idea is that it specifically pertains to the industrial revolution.
3. Germany enjoys an advantage that focuses on the synergy between production and infrastructure from the very outset of the game.

My point is that Germany is known for its production, engineering and manufacturing prowess, and I believe that this ought to be reflected in its Civ 5 "unique ability" one way or another. Forget about ancient primitive barbarism. How was that unique to Germany's ancestors when compared to the rest of continental Europe north of Rome?

Some facts to consider: Today Germany has the 16th largest population in the world, but comes in 3rd in terms of export. As Germany is and has always been naturally low on raw materials, most of Germany's products are in engineering, especially in automobiles, machinery, metals, and chemical goods.

I'm done ranting. What do you guys think? Am I way off here?
 
I'm done ranting. What do you guys think? Am I way off here?

I do also don't like the Furor Teotonicus ,because it overly depends on barbarian encampment spawns,but I do think that the land unit maintance discount should stay . Possibly,one buff on their UA could be about receiving units when they conquer Capital of other civilizations,if their Happiness is equal or superior to +0 . What do you think about it?
 
Yeah it needs to be reworked. It is way to warmongering. All the more newly made civs have UA which are much more versatile. I even consider Attilas production bonus very valuable. Maybe I am just the kind of guy who pefers a peaceful start.

Also it is way to random. And the barbs and not even on the upgradepath to the UU pikes. It also feels out of line with Bismark as the leader.


I'd suggest something like: (combination of a couple of those).
+1 in every city connected by a road/raidroad.
+1 production in the capital for every 4 cities connected via traderoute. Up to a maximum of 3-5.
+1 production from coal
+2 production from settled great engineer (german engineers - get it)
+ generation of great engineers is increased by 10%
Maybe lower that upkeep bonus in return
a few less hammers for the Panzer
Make the Landsknechts (which were often Mercenaries) idential to pikemen but give them a bonus in foreign lands that carries over or a free march or anty cavalry promotion. It is kinda strange that the only UU-pike (?) is not better against horses then others.
 
I don't love Germany's UA, but I don't want to see a UA that's just a bunch of boring flat, static production bonuses.

Furor Teutonicus isn't a great ability per se, but it is an ability that you can milk with a little effort. Encampments can be farmed, mostly by spending a little time *not* looking for them. I can't say I love it, but I like it a heck of a lot more than just "here, have some bonus hammers".

The ability is too random, you say? Arguing against randomness is an argument against Civ's basic design. We are dealt a hand of cards by the map layout, and the challenge is making the best of them. Many people seem to want assurances that they'll get a decent hand every time, which is why we have nerfs to things like swordsmen. Now all civ's are equalized because it doesn't matter whether you have access to iron or horses because neither are particularly stronger choices than spearmen. Lame sauce.

The ability is too warlike? Well, most civ's lean towards a victory condition, and Germany's is domination. However, you can always just use the barbarians for defense, or delete them for cash. I think establishing the Germans as a militant civilization isn't unjustified, considering it incorporates elements of Prussia, Goths, Vandals, Burgundy, etc.

The ability doesnt fit with the modern conception of a unified Germany? Well, that's true, but that's the nature of Civ V. You get only three uniques and for a civ with a long history, that doesn't really cover much. I'd prefer the approach Civ Rev took, where each era unlocks appropriate abilities. That provides a sense of evolution. But that's not what we got.

Having said all that, I think the idea of alternate leadrs is worth looking into, and then we could get something more modern. But hopefully more interesting than just flat production bonuses.
 
I'd like to see something on the production side.

Both the Ottomans and the Germans suffer from abilities petering out very quickly. But that's where the second part of the ability comes into play. Reduced upkeep!

As far as abilities go, having a 1/3 off your army costs is big, coupled with some social policies and you can field an army twice the size of other civs with no extra cost.
 
Actually, the Ottomans' ability no longer mirrors the Germans. They just get a free pirate ship promotion.
 
Ah, I missed that!

Scrap the point about the Ottomans, they're nice and strong as they are
 
As far as abilities go, having a 1/3 off your army costs is big, coupled with some social policies and you can field an army twice the size of other civs with no extra cost.

From my perspective, such an ability has less to do with historical Germany. The Prussians, for example, were known for their quality and discipline, not quantity.

But, yup, def. A very handy advantage when used correctly.
 
The ability doesnt fit with the modern conception of a unified Germany? Well, that's true, but that's the nature of Civ V. You get only three uniques and for a civ with a long history, that doesn't really cover much. I'd prefer the approach Civ Rev took, where each era unlocks appropriate abilities. That provides a sense of evolution. But that's not what we got.

Having said all that, I think the idea of alternate leadrs is worth looking into, and then we could get something more modern. But hopefully more interesting than just flat production bonuses.

Assuming that this was meant as an answer to what I wrote.

My point is that there wasn't much talk of a German empire, and certainly not a German nation state, before much, much later, in fact to such a degree, that I believe other "unique abilities" would have been more appropriate. After all, my impression is that the Civ 5 crew has attempted to fit the different civilizations with traits that seem somewhat historically familiar. German tradition for manufacturing, mechanics, and engineering seems to hand the Civ team a golden opportunity to create a "unique ability" that would seem very authentic indeed.

The Civ Rev approach and alternate leaders both sound intriguing. Linking infrastructure to production in some way would certainly not be any more unimaginative than other "unique abilities" in Civ 5. Granted, my examples might not have been the best.
 
Sounds like you might've liked what they did with Germany in Civ Rev:

From Start: Automatic upgrades for elite units
Ancient Age: New Warriors are Veterans
Medieval Age: +1 production from forest regions
Industrial Age: 1/2 cost Barracks
Modern Age: 2% interest on gold reserves
 
Ive always thought germanies Ua should be +15% xp for all units as well as their maintnence reduction, as it synergizes well with the bradenburg gate and autocracy.
 
The discount on unit maintanance is plent as it was. That, plus garrisoning plus freedom trees free eight units means fielding rediculously huge armies late game while still maintaing 100+GPT. Its stupid good. The only problem like always is them lasting long enough for it to matter.
 
The discount on unit maintanance is plent as it was. That, plus garrisoning plus freedom trees free eight units means fielding rediculously huge armies late game while still maintaing 100+GPT. Its stupid good. The only problem like always is them lasting long enough for it to matter.

Actually,if you play with Germany and is trying to get domination victory,it'd be better to choose Autocracy over Freedom . The problem with the German's UA is not about this part,but about the another part,which overly depends on the number of barbarians encampments spawn and such part is completely useless after Classical era and in maps with more than 2 continents . I think it's kinda necessary to find something to replace that part of its UA,but I think that this new UA should be primarily focused on Conquest .
 
Actually,if you play with Germany and is trying to get domination victory,it'd be better to choose Autocracy over Freedom . The problem with the German's UA is not about this part,but about the another part,which overly depends on the number of barbarians encampments spawn and such part is completely useless after Classical era and in maps with more than 2 continents . I think it's kinda necessary to find something to replace that part of its UA,but I think that this new UA should be primarily focused on Conquest .

Do you play online? The german rush is stupid, they can powerhouse more units then you simply because they sacked into more camps then you, and rush buildings faster. its not OP, but its still very good. especially online.
 
I'm just gonna put it out there. Furor Teutonicus, with all its barbarian bonuses, seems like a strange choice for Germany's "unique ability".

IMHO your arguments for a "modern Germany" UA don't quite fit in, since this is a game where Japans UA is about their bushido code... And the list of similar examples continues on and on.
 
IMHO your arguments for a "modern Germany" UA don't quite fit in, since this is a game where Japans UA is about their bushido code... And the list of similar examples continues on and on.

In fairness, Japan's leader is Oda Nobunaga, a 16th Century warlord from the period when the bushido code was still relevant. Germany's is Otto von Bismarck, a statesman rather than a warlord; indeed he chaired a conference aimed at curbing colonial expansion by European powers (which didn't quite work since Belgium managed to come out of it with a deal allowing them to annex the Congo). But Bismarck's warrior aspect (he was indeed a successful general and starter of wars) rather than his strengths as a diplomat have been emphasised in both Civ IV and Civ V, so the UA fits with Civ tradition if nothing else. Certainly he was successful in his own wars, and wasn't averse to starting them, so that much in Civ is accurate.

In my only game as Germany I went bankrupt because the UA gave me so many Barbarians...
 
I think the main point was that the high point of Germany wasn't fighting the Roman empire as the various tribes which the current UA seems to represent, but rather the industrious nation it is today, as seen by the UU Panzer.

Compared to Japan, the most famous (arguably, but I'm trying to talk in general terms, i.e: if you asked some randomer off the street "what's the thing about Japan you remember the most") they'll say samurai, and perhaps the Sengoku Judai. (sp?) Sure, we know it as an industrious tech leader nowadays, but that isn't its most famous point.

Germany on the other hand is arguably WW1/2, France has its revolution, Russia has the USSR, Sweden has the Crimean War, Spain has the South American Empire and England has the Great Empire powered by the greatest fleet in the world, from India to America to Australia.

I've always felt Civ tries to capture the glories of the nations it includes. I just feel they are slightly off the mark on this one
 
Its strange that German engineering and/or great people is not reflected in their UU and UA in civ 5. If anything, they should have a huge bonus to GEs, GAs and Great people in general really, and maybe have some sort of production bonus as well...... not being focus around... barbarians..... (?!) :p

EDIT; Thinking about it; it might be as simple as hatred for Germany from the devs side...? Sounds silly but... in these Political Correct days...? Nothing is impossible.
 
Its strange that German engineering and/or great people is not reflected in their UU and UA in civ 5. If anything, they should have a huge bonus to GEs, GAs and Great people in general really, and maybe have some sort of production bonus as well...... not being focus around... barbarians..... (?!) :p

Don't worry . Neither the Engineering/great people of Japan,England,Greece,China... is represented in Civ5 . Also,I think that any change on their UA should somehow have a connection with the name of their UA "Furor Teutonicus",and I think that such change should make them less dependent on the spawning of barbarian encampments .
 
I liek furor teutonicus. Its fun, its something that gives me something to look forward to.

I wander into a distant city state named Mombasa, and its pillaged to death by barbarians and I only have a single scout.

Quite some time later, I'm allied to Mombasa for keeping barbarians off mombasa's lands and the army of scout grew to a barbarians spearman, three brutes, 2 archers.

And the barbarian power fell vastly. And after some time, it was medieval era, and that small army end up marching back to my lands with Mombasa lands now secure against barbarians. 3 ranged units and 2 melee mombasa now haz and safe from being pillaged heavily. There's still barbarians but not as bad as it was.


Not so bad for an ability that basically let a single scout I built early game generate a small army on its own. And my built times was already pressed sore, spamming units as much as possible on frontier map due to constant wars xD
 
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