Furor Teutonicus = Poor choice

Veltemaster said:

there are plenty of ways in which you can increase your production by just playing a little smarter. The Furor Teutonics allows you after buiding just a couple of what I like to refer to as "negotiators", units that go after barbarian encampments and get those brutes to join you by beating the holy bejeezus out of them. So when you have to spend less time producing units, you can spend more on developing your cities or anything else you might like to uses those hammers for.

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asmartlittleman said:

Germany's UA has a lot more hidden effects that actually help Germany's production and economy that reflects modern day Germany. You can save a ton of production early in the game by not having to build military units. You can focus on building up your cities and have an army with essentially an army that did not cost you one hammer. With your cities now having lots of buildings they will be more powerful and production in those cities will grow. Economically you save gold on arguably the number one or two gold maintenance issue in the game your army. So this UA makes perfect sense your economy will be better and your cities will also be better.

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I just wanted to point out by quoting these two passages that I agree with you smart little man

Rooftrellen said:

What I don't understand is why you would be happy that a civ like Polynesia would be included but also say Germany is fine as is, from a historical perspective...

It would be like renaming Polynesia as New Zealand...using a modern country in the area to represent all that time.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania_(book)

"Tacitus says (Ch. 2) that physically, the Germanic peoples appear to be a distinct nation, not an admixture of their neighbors, as nobody would desire to migrate to a climate as horrid as that of Germania. They are divided into three large branches, the Ingaevones, the Herminones and the Istaevones, deriving their ancestry from three sons of Mannus, son of Tuisto, their common forefather. In Chapter 4, he mentions that they all have common physical characteristics, blue eyes (truces et caerulei oculi = "sky-coloured, azure, dark blue, dark green), reddish hair ( rutilae comae = "red, golden-red, reddish yellow") and large bodies, vigorous at the first onset but not tolerant of exhausting labour, tolerant of hunger and cold but not of heat"

German peoples, ethnically/culturally, same geographic area, same applies to polynesians, another ethnic/cultural group. Germany became (with the exception of Austria and some parts of other nations) unified under Prussian leadership into "Germany", they decided to name their nation after their ethnic group.. surprising? not really. I'm sure if Hawaii, Tonga, New Zealand, Fiji, etc all one day came together to form one nation they might name themselves "Polynesia".

I may have posted this before, but I think the Germans should get a rush of bonus happiness every time they take a city with a World Wonder in it. Conquering advanced cities with Wonders greatly speeds up the next golden age.

Guys... guys... guys! Aren't we going just a little over the top in the history lessons we're trying to give one another.

I admit I was applying some historical knowledge myself to illustrate the point I was trying to make. Which is simply that I don't agree with the position that Furor Teutonicus = Poor choice... the original topic of this thread.

It might not be great for some gamers, but when I read so many post with people agreeing that the UA and UU's that Germany has in this game are just about worthless and not even appropriate to the German history, I felt someone needed to defend some of the considerations the game designers seem to have based their decisions on.
So I applied some of my own logic and pretty soon came up with a couple of very good reasons why all this Bismarck bashing is doing an injustice to the creators of this game.
Most of the arguments I presented try to explain the viewpoint the designers must have had when deciding on what kind of edge the German Civilization should have over the other Civilizations. So far very little effort has been done to disprove any of them.
Furthermore I am amazed about this increasingly hateful discussion about some of the playable Civilizations' political history and that it somehow matters when they officially became a nation. Do I really need to point out that the name of the game is "Civilization". If those things had mattered to the designers they would have probably called the game: "Nation"

Well that's all I have to say about this for now... I just got a little frustrated and even feel a little responsible for somehow invoking the urge in some people's hearts to bite one another's head off (And please try not to abuse someone's use of sarcasm, by taking it really seriously all of a sudden and then feel offended about it)

Happy gaming people and once again I will add: Peace!

Veltemaster said:

Guys... guys... guys! Aren't we going just a little over the top in the history lessons we're trying to give one another.

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thanks.

Veltemaster said:

Guys... guys... guys! Aren't we going just a little over the top in the history lessons we're trying to give one another.

I admit I was applying some historical knowledge myself to illustrate the point I was trying to make. Which is simply that I don't agree with the position that Furor Teutonicus = Poor choice... the original topic of this thread.

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In a game like Civilization, history has a profound influence upon gameplay. If it didn't, Firaxis would have simply made up fictitious civilizations.

To that end, it is worth discussing history as it applies to the gameplay. Obviously a post that only talks about history is off point, but so long as a thread intertwines history and how it applies to gameplay, there is never too much history.

Veltemaster said:

It might not be great for some gamers, but when I read so many post with people agreeing that the UA and UU's that Germany has in this game are just about worthless and not even appropriate to the German history, I felt someone needed to defend some of the considerations the game designers seem to have based their decisions on.

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The choices that the developers made are appropriate and I don't think anyone said they weren't. However, they could certainly be improved upon, more so than most civilizations in the game.

Veltemaster said:

So I applied some of my own logic and pretty soon came up with a couple of very good reasons why all this Bismarck bashing is doing an injustice to the creators of this game.
Most of the arguments I presented try to explain the viewpoint the designers must have had when deciding on what kind of edge the German Civilization should have over the other Civilizations. So far very little effort has been done to disprove any of them.
Furthermore I am amazed about this increasingly hateful discussion about some of the playable Civilizations' political history and that it somehow matters when they officially became a nation.

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I thought I was doing fairly well in eloquently and concisely explaining my opinions. It is a simple matter to see what the developers were thinking or what they were trying to convey, but, after reviewing their design choices, I still find Germany lacking (not absolutely, but to a degree greater than the other civilizations in the game).

Veltemaster said:

Do I really need to point out that the name of the game is "Civilization". If those things had mattered to the designers they would have probably called the game: "Nation"

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A "nation" falls under the category of "civilization," along with "kingdom," "empire," "tribe," or whatever other term you can think of.

You have the nation of Germany, which was previously the Empire of Germany, which was previously small, seperate nations and kingdoms, which was previously the Holy Roman Empire, which was previously small kingdoms, which was previously small tribes (I might have mussed up the sequence, but my illustration is made and you get the idea).

It becomes rather difficult to pick three things (UA/UU/UB) that will sufficiently represent any civilization, no matter the class of that civilization, when you attempt to represent so many iterations of that particular civilization. Germany, more so than most, has gone through way too many incarnations to comfortably be represented by such a wide spanning collection of uniques (Furor Teutonicus, Landschnekt, and Panzer). The developers would ultimately do more credit to history and more credit, most importantly, to the gameplay by making Germany a more focused, well-honed civilization, and perhaps by adding in a new civilization to represent the older German kingdoms/empires/tribes.

Oh, and Germans didn't come together and call their country "Germany." That is just what it is in English. In Germany, they call themselves "Deutschland."

In English, we just went with a name that Latin writers ascribed to a certain tribe. Similarly, in Romance languages (Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, French, etc.), it is a derivation of "Aleman," which is merely another tribal name described by Latin authors.

ferretbacon said:

Oh, and Germans didn't come together and call their country "Germany." That is just what it is in English. In Germany, they call themselves "Deutschland." .

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haha! good point.

anyways, while i agree with some of what you say, i think the reasoning suffers one fatal flaw.. focusing upon only modern germany would mean - modern uu's/ub.. which i dont think anyone really wants. an attempt to form a civ based around a political creation that only took place in 1871 would mean the earliest uu you might get is a rifleman replacement.. but really it would be more realistically a great war infantry replacement. the same for any second uu (assuming you scrapped the panzer), or ub. the american civ already stretches things a bit by turning the minuteman into a uu.. which, despite patriotic american's perceptions, is probably a military unit not really worthy of inclusion into a civ game, a ragtag bunch of rebels? but, it was the devs attempt to provide a relatively early unit for the american civ so they weren't screwed with completely modern units.

You know, the Germans are proud of their beer. Maybe they're UA is +1 Happiness for improved wheat resources. , or wheat is a luxury, or 1 turn every year they get "Octoberfest" and happiness triples for that turn.

...sorry, couldn't resist.

woodshadows said:

anyways, while i agree with some of what you say, i think the reasoning suffers one fatal flaw.. focusing upon only modern germany would mean - modern uu's/ub.. which i dont think anyone really wants. an attempt to form a civ based around a political creation that only took place in 1871 would mean the earliest uu you might get is a rifleman replacement.. but really it would be more realistically a great war infantry replacement. the same for any second uu (assuming you scrapped the panzer), or ub. the american civ already stretches things a bit by turning the minuteman into a uu.. which, despite patriotic american's perceptions, is probably a military unit not really worthy of inclusion into a civ game, a ragtag bunch of rebels? but, it was the devs attempt to provide a relatively early unit for the american civ so they weren't screwed with completely modern units.

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I agree with that. That is definitely one of the challenges I can imagine the developers faced. On the other hand, it would be interesting to have a civilization that really shines late game. Right now, there aren't any civilizations that absolutely dominate that time period.

One way around it would be to give Germany some sort of building replacement that comes a little earlier than it should (similar to how the Mohawk is anachronistic: they existed in the 1700s, but they show up in the game as early as ~500 A.D).

Perhaps a brewery that replaces the Garden? Yeah, I know, a little tacky, but there's a suggestion...

fatboris said:

You know, the Germans are proud of their beer. Maybe they're UA is +1 Happiness for improved wheat resources. , or wheat is a luxury, or 1 turn every year they get "Octoberfest" and happiness triples for that turn.

...sorry, couldn't resist.

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Just as I was suggesting the same thing... you know, that would be cool. Perhaps a UI that they can build on Wheat. A brewery that increases food, but also gives a + or +?

It would give them something early game that, along with the Panzer and a revised UA (I'm still in favor of 25% reduction to land unit maintenance with a combat bonus against fighting multiple enemies), would make them a decent civilization throughout the game. They'd be able to warmonger the entire time, but would reach their apex late game with the Panzer, as is appropriate.

It would also still open up the possibility for an earlier Germanic civilization, like the Holy Roman Empire, without stepping on any toes (I don't think the Holy Roman Empire could appropriately possess a brewery UI).

i like modern units, if they were made dominant enough that could be a fun game, give germany howitzers for instance, insane power artillery replacements or something. when i think of germany i think of howitzers. if they were given a good ua it would get them through the early game until they reached those dominant late game units.

ferretbacon said:

I agree with that. That is definitely one of the challenges I can imagine the developers faced. On the other hand, it would be interesting to have a civilization that really shines late game. Right now, there aren't any civilizations that absolutely dominate that time period.

One way around it would be to give Germany some sort of building replacement that comes a little earlier than it should (similar to how the Mohawk is anachronistic: they existed in the 1700s, but they show up in the game as early as ~500 A.D).

Perhaps a brewery that replaces the Garden? Yeah, I know, a little tacky, but there's a suggestion...

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Well, from a gameplay perspective, they nailed Germany. The civ has lots of parts working together very well. The UUs and UA work well in combination, particularly if you get many barb spearmen.

As I said, if I had the power to change Germany in any way I want, but only Germany, I would hesitate due to their unique feel.

However, making things too modern shouldn't be much of a concern. Theodora manages to get two ancient era UU's, as leader of a civ that didn't even start to exist before at least 400 AD, so it's not like it couldn't be pushed back, and America reflects a very modern civ, having a musket and bomber UU. France also only starts getting UU's at muskets, reflecting it's modern side, not it's land's history.

The trick, of course, is that both of these have UA's that benefit the civ from early, which a changed German UA would need if it were to reflect the country, not the land over time. Actually, a UA that would point to a time when Germany was fragmented would even be able to follow in the footsteps of those civs, expiring at some point when the UU's should start taking over (America's UA loses it's umph at flight, when you get huge sight from air units, and France's stops with Steam Power).

Maybe to keep it unique, Germany could get two modern UU's and a UA that gives a benefit that stops when the first UU is bought or finished, giving the option to ignore the UU's for some time in order to keep the UA working.

I don't want to go into the matter any further, because I feel most of what anyone might say has already been said.

I'd just like to remark that I wasn't refering to anyone in particular with my comments and as you can see, I refrained from naming anyone specifically. So if anyone got the impression I was adressing them personally, perhaps they could point out in a private message which particular phrase of mine gave them that impression.

Right now I am really enjoying the wonderful synergies that Germany has by gathering a barbarian horde, while only ever having built three units myself. I can't wait to get to the point where I can upgrade all those extra sprearmen to landsknechts.

And off course I know that my neighboring country is called Deutchland in their own language... I am not stupid !

Greetz

Another thing you all seem to be ignoring is that Germany was a huge cultural state... especially post Renaissance. Martin Luther? Gutenberg? Not to mention the composers and philosophers who followed. Bismarck's time and just before him was marked by a huge surge in German culture. It is easy to pigeonhole Germany as warmongering, but if we're going back to the Romantic era Germany, then let's give them their due.

A boost toward philosophy would be cool and some Great Science stuff... not sure what.

I miss the old Civ that had the same civilizations with choices of leaders. That was a great idea. You could play the war mongering Germany or the more composed Germany. Made lots of sense to me.

I think that the new Civ V people are afraid of offending, so Hitler, Stalin, Hirohito, and other just get ignored. I also wish America had more than just Washington, but that's neither here nor there.

Zaimejs said:

Another thing you all seem to be ignoring is that Germany was a huge cultural state... especially post Renaissance. Martin Luther? Gutenberg? Not to mention the composers and philosophers who followed. Bismarck's time and just before him was marked by a huge surge in German culture. It is easy to pigeonhole Germany as warmongering, but if we're going back to the Romantic era Germany, then let's give them their due.

A boost toward philosophy would be cool and some Great Science stuff... not sure what.

I miss the old Civ that had the same civilizations with choices of leaders. That was a great idea. You could play the war mongering Germany or the more composed Germany. Made lots of sense to me.

I think that the new Civ V people are afraid of offending, so Hitler, Stalin, Hirohito, and other just get ignored. I also wish America had more than just Washington, but that's neither here nor there.

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which was the more composed Germany... Bismarck or Frederick the Great?

Zaimejs said:

Another thing you all seem to be ignoring is that Germany was a huge cultural state... especially post Renaissance. Martin Luther? Gutenberg? Not to mention the composers and philosophers who followed. Bismarck's time and just before him was marked by a huge surge in German culture. It is easy to pigeonhole Germany as warmongering, but if we're going back to the Romantic era Germany, then let's give them their due.

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I think this is actually already modeled. Think about it: You get free units and low unit maintenance. You have a super-cheap defensive medieval unit that's extremely versatile, but not so good for attacking. So what are you going to do with all of the extra money and hammers and such you have during the period in which you have no strong UU and your rivals have come close to catching up with your army size?

Spend it on cultural buildings, maybe?

Veltemaster said:

I can't wait to get to the point where I can upgrade all those extra sprearmen to landsknechts.

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Apparently for only 5 gold!! This just keeps getting better

woodshadows said:

I don't really think of the Ruhr Valley industralism as being closely tied with Prussian history personally. When I think Prussia I think militarism, conformity.. kind of the opposites of ingenuity. Really Prussia would have done well with Ethiopia's UA, tiny Prussia did well against much bigger enemies through it's history.. suits them much better than Ethiopia, who (thought politically incorrect) could have gotten a Foreign Aid UA, +2 food in the capital +1 food in every other city for every declaration of friendship.

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Ethiopia is now a net food exporter.

I just can't seem to wrap my head around the idea that Germany somehow has a disadvantage in Civilization V... after upgrading all those freely gained spearmen to landsknechts for five gold a pop (Never regretting for a second filling up the Honor Policy tree)

And the citystates love me for clearing out all those pesky barbarians for them, without ever having to adjust my gameplan

Soooo... what was all the fuss about again?

PS. And another great thing I just realized is: of the 15 units I now have under my command... I only had to produce four of five in one of my cities... (in the 147th turn of the game I must add)
PPS. 45 turns later is already difficult to keep track of how many landsknechts I have running around, cause I have to scroll through the military overview in order to count their numbers... guess I just stop writing posts about this and start waging some bloody war!

3335d said:

Ethiopia is now a net food exporter.

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gotta raise foreign capital for the elite somehow right.

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landsknechts are amazing, spam them like mad and throw them at your opponent, even on deity the ai can't keep up with the production bonus you get on pikes through the landsknecht. people talk about production bonus for germany, well.. having half price pikes *is* a production bonus.