The espionage system kinda stinks, and it isn't because spies can't do enough. it's because everything they do comes without risk or cost.
The espionage system kinda stinks, and it isn't because spies can't do enough. it's because everything they do comes without risk or cost.
"Spy Mission: COPY Great Work". Next problem?
game mechanic (a lot of people do this on the forums so I'm glad to have my turn as well )I'll give you copying works, but what precedence is there for copied works to be just as valuable or even half as valuable as the original?
My 2 cents, using spies to steal/copy great works feel like a suggestion in search of a problem
If one bothered to code it, one could even make "copy" works that only added half the original bonus (+1 Culture, +1 Tourism). I'm not saying this would be worth the trouble, not to mention the bother of managing them, but it could work that way. The idea of copying Great Works is not that bad, but one has to consider that unlike the Tech Tree, which you are progressing through, there's no such thing as a progression through the great works, so basically what this would do is give the spies the ability to give an additional influx of great works. This raises two questions, the first being if one thinks that's a good idea, and the second being whether this actually will be good for game balance. It's not exactly like Cultural Victory is the hardest to achieve at the moment.game mechanic (a lot of people do this on the forums so I'm glad to have my turn as well )
Really though it gives spies an extra thing to do and is not too immersion-breaking (imo). Who's to say who's got the real Mona Lisa? Just because civ X had theirs before civ Y doesn't mean it's the original... For some reason non-partisan experts suffer curious disappearances when crossing said civs' borders...
This. As currently implemented, a spy can do nothing that permanently damages a civ. It can permanently benefit the spying civ, of course, as with stealing a Tech, or it can temporarily damage a civ, as with instigating C-S coups, but there's nothing that can immediately and permanently take something away. That's as it should be, imo.100% no on this idea.
You don't lose tech when someone else steals it, so the comparison is not there.
This could be manageable from a game perspective, as a way for a non-culture civ to try to keep up with others by obtaining lesser-value Great Works. And it would indeed give spies something else to do. But this could really wind up backfiring. Recall that you cannot destroy a Great Work once you have one, and who would possibly want to trade a real GW with full bonuses for a copy with half bonuses? The spying civ would be permanently stuck with the half-value GW, with no options for Theming. Perhaps this could be of value to a civ that has no intention of competing in the cultural game, but as we all know, the culture game isn't really optional anymore, especially in the mid/late game when spies become active.If one bothered to code it, one could even make "copy" works that only added half the original bonus (+1 Culture, +1 Tourism). I'm not saying this would be worth the trouble, not to mention the bother of managing them, but it could work that way. The idea of copying Great Works is not that bad, but one has to consider that unlike the Tech Tree, which you are progressing through, there's no such thing as a progression through the great works, so basically what this would do is give the spies the ability to give an additional influx of great works. This raises two questions, the first being if one thinks that's a good idea, and the second being whether this actually will be good for game balance. It's not exactly like Cultural Victory is the hardest to achieve at the moment.
Actually, many statues are displayed as copies in museums around the world. I'm not really advocating for this idea, but it does in fact happen, although admittedly, it does seem to be limited to statues more than paintings. I don't even know how that would work for writings or music works ...Regardless of the gameplay element, this would be really hard to justify from a real-world standpoint. Sure, forgeries are made all the time...but how many of them are prominently displayed for viewing by the rest of the world, brazenly competing with the original?
Right, but they are not then presented or viewed or passed off to the rest of the world as the real deal, as the highlight of a culture's artistic prowess, which is what is represented by Great Works. "Regular" art, including (I would argue) copies of great works, is already reflected in the culture produced by the game's regular culture buildings.Actually, many statues are displayed as copies in museums around the world. I'm not really advocating for this idea, but it does in fact happen, although admittedly, it does seem to be limited to statues more than paintings. I don't even know how that would work for writings or music works ...
Right, but they are not then presented or viewed or passed off to the rest of the world as the real deal, as the highlight of a culture's artistic prowess, which is what is represented by Great Works. "Regular" art, including (I would argue) copies of great works, is already reflected in the culture produced by the game's regular culture buildings.
That's not true, losing a spy means losing valuable tech steal time (or having an opponent steal a tech from you!).
However, a far more painful cost is also possible: failing a coup. That costs a lot of influence as well as the spy...
Imagine being handed a stack of complimentary poker chips at a casino. You may make out well with them or poorly, but at the end of the day you got the chips for free. Similarly, spies are doled out freely and derive their outputs freely without being integrated into Civ through customary inputs. The net effect is that since espionage is all but isolated from inputs such as gold, production, culture (via social policies), or research (via techs), there is no way to devote more or less attention to espionage, no way to become more specialized, meaning everyone is as good as everyone else. Therefore, it is just a tedious seesaw at best. I steal a tech from you, you steal a tech from me. I coup an ally of yours, you coup an ally of mine. What we have now is actually worse than that: the AI is as good at espionage as the player, but declines to use them effectively (otherwise we'd see the constant coups that were once familiar). The diplo victory is kind of a cakewalk now due in large part to that.How are big diplomatic hits, the loss of spies (so they lose their ranking and you lose tech stealing time) and the loss of CS influence after a failed coup not a risk?