On tech diffusion

JosEPh_II said:
Does anyone ever try for a Cultural, Scientific, or Religious Victory. I don't use Mastery but do set those 3 plus Conguest Or Domination. But none of my games have ended with either the AI or myself accomplishing a Cultural or Religious. I did have a Scientific way back around SVN 560+ but I was only on Noble difficulty level and was really just testing out things back then.

And I've not done a Space race since the RoM days when zappara was still working on the early 2.0 development stage. And that's been awhile.

JosEPh
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Being almost as much a "Culturemonger" as I am a Warmonger, I've attempted several Cultural victories in AND, but I don't think I've gotten one without some... Ahem, assistance from the World Builder ;)
With the exception of Testing Phase games, I find it hard to keep my grubby mitts out of it for one reason or another :lol:
Gifting the AI new stuff, founding more barb cities because they refuse to do so themselves often, rising new landmasses out of the sea, forming and breaking alliances... I even had a BBM launched at the start of one game into the middle of the map to see how the game would play out with an infection sweeping across the world :nuke:


So a fully legit Cultural - with no WB tinkering of any kind? Don't think I got one yet. But it's the only non-conquest option I've ever gone for, since the others are too darned close to "the end of time" for me to bother with. Given how massive even AND's tech tree is (Not to mention C2C's!) I don't even glance in the direction of Space Race, and while Scientific is intriguing, I see Cultural as the next fastest bet for me when going for a victory that doesn't involve uniting the entire world under my rule, by force if needed. ;)


So summing it up: Nope, never seen an AND victory that wasn't Domination or Conquest. I actually did see one Diplomatic victory, but it was essentially Domination due to most of the world being under my rule anyway. I've shot for Scientific a few times in early AND, but never once bothered or even was interested in the longer-than-usual Space "Race". Scientific I never did get, but tried to aim for.
 
Iirc Space Race is no longer a viable Victory Setting for C2C with it's extra Eras beyond Modern.

In AND and C2C Cultural Victory took some major hits with the game set up options Fixed Borers, Realistic Culture Spread, and City Limits by Civics. Also I also seem to recall that the culture from religions was curtailed in late RoM which carried over to both mods too.

JosEPh.
 
Well, we were going to have some major civics reinterpretation anyway, weren't we? I find it a good idea to actually try and make different civics better or worse suited for different playstyles...
 
Well, if things didn't change in the Spread Culture mission, it's actually one of the best ways of winning by Culture in slow speeds and big maps. I already did this once (in LoR) and it was incredible, as it was a MP and my friend had no idea about what I had been doing.

Spread Culture Mission becomes better as more missions are successful. It reaches a stage that you can put thousands of culture points in a city with a single mission. Then you just have to capture the city.

In AND it seems easier because of the Flip City mission. Get strong, conquer someone else until he becomes your vassal with 2 cities. Then you get the territory around him, making it an isle inside your territory. Now he is protected by you and completely surrounded by friendly land. Then you focus on culture on your best cultural city and start making Culture Missions on him. Just be sure to write down all the :culture: values that are added to the city. When the total value put on the cities exceeds the Legendary Value, just flip them to you. This seems to me a lot easier then grabing several cultural wonders and distribute them between 3 cities that you want to make Legendary.

Imagine the expression on someone's face when he is winning the game and just suddenly you get a cultural victory from under his nose, without the least expectation on his part that you were doing this (because this way you never appear as almost winning in the victory advisor). :cool:
 
Rezca said:
AND's cultural victory requires five cities now, doesn't it? :confused:
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If it's five then get 2 legendary cities and 3 vassal cities to make the missions, or just become the master spy and get 4 cities with this plan. BTW I've just started a game with Franco (Deceiver + UB Citadel) on Deity to see how I can handle things trying to win with this strategy. It's on Epic, so it may take some time
 
I won a cultural victory with my last completed game, but then I "only" had modern technology and indirectly controlled one continent.
 
Bumping thread.

I want to say that with Tech Diffusion improvement, I'm enjoying these small civs more because their armies are only few tech columns behind me. Not a walking over conquests anymore. Plus, my Border Patrolling and ?Hunting units are working harder at their duties :D!
 
I'm worried tech diffusion has gone too far the other way now (it's too powerful). I played a game last night where I was able to easily exploit tech diffusion for essentially free techs. My strategy was to research a techs the AI did not have, and those techs took me 50-100 turns in the classical era. Then, I would be far enough behind in the other areas of the tech tree that tech diffusion would allow me to grab the rest of the techs in the previous row in 1, 2, or 3 turns. I basically didn't even have to care about investing in research, I could have run a full-culture/espionage economy and gotten free techs from the AI's as they gave me tech diffusion.

I think what needs to happen is that research costs need to drop some across the board, then drop tech diffusion down some too. If techs are cheaper, normal research (without tech diffusion) will not take so long, and tech diffusion won't be needed as much. I really am just not 100% a fan of TD because I feel it is a crutch for not fixing the real problem with bad AI.

Another idea I brought up a few months back was some kind of Research Agreement Diplomacy (think Civ5) that would pool research between two civilizations. I am not really sure how it would work though. Civilization 5 has tech trees independent for each civilization (no trading) so they don't have to worry about the fact that two civilizations might not be at the same tech level or have the same techs.

One idea to keep Research Agreements simple might be to have an upfront gold cost to starting one (200 * era)? and then for 20 turns or so, half your science is invested into the 'research' agreement instead of your normal research. At the end, each civilization gets to pick a free tech. However, to prevent greedy civilizations from just turning off science and abusing the free tech, there is a chance the research project might fail (and no discovery is made). The failure chance is based on the amount of science each civilization contributed during the partnership (so if I contributed 3000 :science: but my partner old contributed 1500 :science: then there would be a 50% chance of failure). This also has the effect of making partnerships between non-equal civilizations (tech leader and backward civilizations) pointless since the non-equal contributions would almost certainly lead to failure. AI's can be coded to refuse any agreement in advance if they suspect it will have a high chance of failure.

For added fun, successful agreements would yield +1 diplomacy and failed ones, -1 diplomacy.
 
Combat Wombat said:
Is there a way to turn off tech diffusion for human players at a certain difficultly level?
Click to expand...
That's what I've suggested and it was in my old code. At least, it was greatly reduced for human players at increasing difficulty levels.
 
Afforess said:
I'm worried tech diffusion has gone too far the other way now (it's too powerful). I played a game last night where I was able to easily exploit tech diffusion for essentially free techs. My strategy was to research a techs the AI did not have, and those techs took me 50-100 turns in the classical era. Then, I would be far enough behind in the other areas of the tech tree that tech diffusion would allow me to grab the rest of the techs in the previous row in 1, 2, or 3 turns. I basically didn't even have to care about investing in research, I could have run a full-culture/espionage economy and gotten free techs from the AI's as they gave me tech diffusion.

I think what needs to happen is that research costs need to drop some across the board, then drop tech diffusion down some too. If techs are cheaper, normal research (without tech diffusion) will not take so long, and tech diffusion won't be needed as much. I really am just not 100% a fan of TD because I feel it is a crutch for not fixing the real problem with bad AI.

Another idea I brought up a few months back was some kind of Research Agreement Diplomacy (think Civ5) that would pool research between two civilizations. I am not really sure how it would work though. Civilization 5 has tech trees independent for each civilization (no trading) so they don't have to worry about the fact that two civilizations might not be at the same tech level or have the same techs.

One idea to keep Research Agreements simple might be to have an upfront gold cost to starting one (200 * era)? and then for 20 turns or so, half your science is invested into the 'research' agreement instead of your normal research. At the end, each civilization gets to pick a free tech. However, to prevent greedy civilizations from just turning off science and abusing the free tech, there is a chance the research project might fail (and no discovery is made). The failure chance is based on the amount of science each civilization contributed during the partnership (so if I contributed 3000 :science: but my partner old contributed 1500 :science: then there would be a 50% chance of failure). This also has the effect of making partnerships between non-equal civilizations (tech leader and backward civilizations) pointless since the non-equal contributions would almost certainly lead to failure. AI's can be coded to refuse any agreement in advance if they suspect it will have a high chance of failure.

For added fun, successful agreements would yield +1 diplomacy and failed ones, -1 diplomacy.
Click to expand...

I agree TD is kind of a workaround for a dumb AI and it can be exploited by human players like you've done. That's why in my old code there was a part increasing or reducing TD for human players based on handicap level: if you play on harder levels, you shouldn't get that much tech diffusion but just a fraction. Couldn't we just add back that part of the code? TD works like it's working now for Noble or lower levels, but if you're using a higher level, human players will get tech diffusion divided by 2, 5, 10, whatever you think it's necessary.
I like the idea of Research Agreements but wouldn't that only help stronger civs to become even stronger (or advanced)?
And furthermore, like I've said yesterday

99 little bugs in the code
99 little bugs.
Take one down,
patch it around,
117 little bugs in the code.
Click to expand...

:lol:
I would prefer easier ways to solve some AI problems but if there are none, well, let's do it the hard way. :) [hard from my point of view, of course; possibly these problems are trivial for an expert programmer]
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;13350024 said:
I like the idea of Research Agreements but wouldn't that only help stronger civs to become even stronger (or advanced)?
Click to expand...

How would it benefit advanced civilizations? The top tech leader would be unable to use research agreements at all, they would almost always fail.
 
What about research agreements about certain techs? Like, you agree to give beakers for Machinery, Guilds and Alchemy, but nothing else?
 
Tolni said:
What about research agreements about certain techs? Like, you agree to give beakers for Machinery, Guilds and Alchemy, but nothing else?
Click to expand...

How is that different than just trading the tech?
 
You gain the tech automatically; if you give beakers, you'll need to wait several turns while it's researching.

Right? Isn't that the Research Agreements (in truth, I've never played Civ5, so you can safely ignore me) are - an exchange of beakers for money?
 
Afforess said:
How would it benefit advanced civilizations? The top tech leader would be unable to use research agreements at all, they would almost always fail.
Click to expand...

Mmm, I've read again the part about failing research agreement. I think you're right, I shouldn't worry about that.

Edit: but would it work between humans/AI and between human/human too? I fear this is the kind of improvement that makes OOS easier. I still suspect that there's some source for OOS in the trading code (my idea is that the problem is in the trade war code).
 
I was looking around for mods' ideas. I found Realiticus Invictum idea for Tech Transfer through Open Border agreement. Would this be an useful alternative?
 
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