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Cultural Diversity

I'm not a fan of the Science penalty as it is present in the Steppes group and will probably be featured in others as well.

I'd replace it with a Happiness penalty or something like that.
Everything else seems fine though. What would the UB, Unique Wonder and Technology be?
 
All non-Western and non-Central European civs will have a tech penalty. EU-style. I like it and I myself proposed it for Slavic/Eastern group. Just compare Russia and Poland with the West in 17th and 18th centuries. Well, there's no comparison, really, the East was almost an entire age behind the West, save for imported stuff and line infantry doctrine. But they can and will catch up in the Industrial Era.

Perhaps I would decrease the percentage to 10%, and leave 15% for other groups though.
 
All non-Western and non-Central European civs will have a tech penalty. EU-style. I like it and I myself proposed it for Slavic/Eastern group. Just compare Russia and Poland with the West in 17th and 18th centuries. Well, there's no comparison, really, the East was almost an entire age behind the West, save for imported stuff and line infantry doctrine. But they can and will catch up in the Industrial Era.

Perhaps I would decrease the percentage to 10%, and leave 15% for other groups though.

I know but still, just for the sake of uniqueness and diversity.
I mean come on, the project is called "Cultural Diversity".
It would be rather boring if 80% of the Civilizations have a Science Penalty, if anything you should give the other Civs a Science boost.
Would be more simply, really. :lol:
 
Some civs do have a science boost. The Steppes research Horseback Riding especially quickly, and Ancient Mesopotamic civs will likely speed through Ancient technologies (but stagnate quickly after that). As JanBoruta pointed out, this is akin to the system in EUIV, which is what I'm trying to replicate as best I can. Because science is so central (read: OP) to the game, it seems the best fit that every civ have some kind of technological progress modifier. But yes. Overall, Europeans will have the highest tech rate (which will just be the standard research rate).

All non-Western and non-Central European civs will have a tech penalty. EU-style. I like it and I myself proposed it for Slavic/Eastern group. Just compare Russia and Poland with the West in 17th and 18th centuries. Well, there's no comparison, really, the East was almost an entire age behind the West, save for imported stuff and line infantry doctrine. But they can and will catch up in the Industrial Era.

Perhaps I would decrease the percentage to 10%, and leave 15% for other groups though.

Do you mean decrease for the Eastern Europeans? And 15% for the Steppes. I have one report to go on that 15% was fairly negligible through playing as the Steppes. So this is why I've increased the values. If someone playtests it and finds they're too high, then I'll scale them back, but for now, all I have to go on is that 15% wasn't really noticeable. I know 30% sounds a lot, though.

For the one time boost what about:

Kill X number of enemy units using a city's ranged attack

Or

Kill an enemy Great General using a city's ranged attack.

A nod to some of the great sieges in eastern European history, particularly Leningrad. It also fits into the defensive Civ theme.

A bit tricky to code, I think. Good idea, though. However, I think the resistance bonus is a good enough reflection of this idea.

Looks great, can wait to give it a go!

For the culture boost objective how about:

Be the last slavic capital to convert to a (enhanced?) religion

Maybe even scale the bonus up for each era you reach?

What is this based on? Could be interesting for someone.
 
I am strongly against science penalty for Ancient, Greek - Roman, Muslim, Bharata, Japanese and Oriental groups (not sure about Mandala) - at least before Renaissance. Near East, India, East Asia before XVI/XVII century were on European technologic level, not even to mention period before XIII/XIV century when they were clearly SUPERIOR to Europe in terms of technology.

Muslim/Indian/East Asia was scientifically superior to Europe between XIII century, on similar level until XVII?? century and on visibly lower level in XVIII - XX centuries. Giving them general scientifical penalty would be really stupid - or rather, I would give them science penalty but only for certain eras (Renaissance/Industrial/Modern?) or certain techs (naval/social).

Ancient/GreekRoman groups' ancient science penalty would be just ridiculous, Muslim group was far more developed than Europe before Renaissance, similar with whole Indian/Oriental/Japanese group...

Native Americans/Pacific/Africa uhm, yeah, they should have major science penalties :p

[Oh, by the way, I don't like EU technological groups - while they are quite realistic when speaking about areas close to West (Eastern Europe -10% ok, Near East -20%), -50% to science for East Asia is ridiculous... Instead I would give East Asia penalty for naval/government techs ]
 
EU IV has a specific time-frame, which I am bearing in mind. These groups won't all have a static penalty up until the Industrial age. Typically, this is going to be the case for groups that tended not to fluctuate scientifically until very late, such as for the Steppes and the Eastern Europeans.

American civilizations (Tribal and High) will both receive the most significant penalties, which will last until the Industrial Era. However, Tribal Americans will not receive these penalties during the Ancient Era, and High Americans will not during the Ancient and Classical Era.

Another case is Asiatic civs. Again, technological penalties will be limited to a confined time period - specifically, the Renaissance and the Industrial Era. Asiatic civs, I feel, should be the only group that are slower to catch up industrially that others (but the penalty will be fairly modest).

Ancient civilizations would not get a science penalty in the Ancient era, akin to the Native Americans, but, as I said above, would likely speed through them (and Graeco-Roman would speed through Classical techs), before stagnating in the Medieval and Renaissance, before being able to catch up in the Industrial Era (where it levels out for everyone but Asiatic civilizations).

Arabic civilizations are definitely an interesting case. This is why I especially like the faith into science idea, because it would be a way to simulate their scientific advancement during the weakest points in European scientific history, without giving them an explicit bonus to research during certain periods.

Europeans could, possibly, get a small penalty to simulate the Dark Ages at the beginning of the Medieval Era. However, here is where the fine line between realism and sticking to the game's "What if?" spirit starts to snap.

In any case, this is all tentative thinking. Feel free to keep offering ideas on the way science penalties should be managed (but I do intend to have them, regardless).
 
Do you mean decrease for the Eastern Europeans? And 15% for the Steppes. I have one report to go on that 15% was fairly negligible through playing as the Steppes. So this is why I've increased the values. If someone playtests it and finds they're too high, then I'll scale them back, but for now, all I have to go on is that 15% wasn't really noticeable. I know 30% sounds a lot, though.

Oh, if 15% was negligible, than I think it can stay for the Eastern group. :)

I like the draft you posted above - seems good to me. There will be some differences between the civs across the map, but I still think it will be fairly balanced - there is nothing stopping a civ from beelining techs and getting to new eras in which the penalty disappears. And some AIs like beelining.
 
not sure about Mandala
All I know is that we definitely had access to muskets by the 1590s, though they probably already were in use before that. Imported of course.

Nonetheless, Science is much more important in Civ than in Europa in my experience. Be wary.

However, here is where the fine line between realism and sticking to the game's "What if?" spirit starts to snap.
Why? If you're already imposing bonuses and penalties on other groups due to historical reasons, then this is no different. Not in the least.
 
Mostly because the Dark Ages are specifically tied to the decline of Rome. Based on the historical emphasis in this mod, it seems awkward to have such a period if there is no equivalent instigator.
 
Be the last slavic capital to convert to a (enhanced?) religion

Maybe even scale the bonus up for each era you reach?

What is this based on? Could be interesting for someone.

Sadly I've no historical basis for it, I've just been enjoying playing your Lithuania mod and found defending your capital to outside influence to be a fun interesting way to play. I also liked the fact that it is a reverse of the many "be the first..." this mod will likely have.

I suppose a very loose argument would be that this would encourage slavic civs to declare war in retaliation to missionaries/great prophets trespassing on your territory, and further represent the spirit of holding out as long as possible.

Another thought I had to synchronise with this would be a benefit of:
"May sacrifice missionaries/Prophets in cities only following your pantheon for a faith boost." So foreign missionaries and Prophets you'll gain from defending your lands can still be of some use.

Of course feel free to utilise any ideas how you see fit
 
Mostly because the Dark Ages are specifically tied to the decline of Rome. Based on the historical emphasis in this mod, it seems awkward to have such a period if there is no equivalent instigator.

And the end of the Islamic Golden Age came with the Mongols; the end of the Native American empires came with the Spanish. The Chinese and Arabs arguably caused the European Renaissance (Algebra, Alchemy, and good luck finding the New World without the compass, oh yes, and there's gunpowder, etc).

Golden and Dark ages both happen for reasons, internal and external. If you wish to make these things inherent traits for the non-European civs, please don't shirk away from it for the European civs.
 
Hm. I'll have to think about how to implement it. At any rate, I think scaling the bonus is probably a very good point. So I'll incorporate this from now on, and update the Steppes with the Easterns accordingly.

All I know is, I want the High American civs (Aztecs, Inca, etc.) to be able to sacrifice their civilian units for faith :)

And the end of the Islamic Golden Age came with the Mongols; the end of the Native American empires came with the Spanish. The Chinese and Arabs arguably caused the European Renaissance (Algebra, Alchemy, and good luck finding the New World without the compass, oh yes, and there's gunpowder, etc).

Golden and Dark ages both happen for reasons, internal and external. If you wish to make these things inherent traits for the non-European civs, please don't shirk away from it for the European civs.

Hm, yeah. Fair point. Well noted.
 
Hey JFD, just gave the Steppes download a quick go. It does really encourage a Genghis campaign of mounted fury, which is a lot of fun.

I didn't play to the end so I can't say much on balance, but one bug I noticed was the "A great Horde Cometh!" had a TXT_KEY error in its description and would trigger every so often without me knowing why. On one occasion it popped up in my notifications bar repeated four times!

Also for another random idea for the steppes, reverse for slavic civs, or wherever it fits in:
"Units gain +15% against a civ which [has/you have] denounced"
 
Thanks for the bug report. I'll look into it. That notification is only supposed to show if you're not playing as the Steppes, and if another Steppe has just researched their unique technology. I'm thinking of changing it to a small popup, sort of like one had in Empire: Total War, which always made the world feel more alive. As a notification, it's easily missed. But yeah, it shouldn't be appearing that frequently.

That's an interesting idea you've proposed, I'm sure I can find a home for it. Thanks.
 
All I know is, I want the High American civs (Aztecs, Inca, etc.) to be able to sacrifice their civilian units for faith :)

Although it sounds terribly evil to say this... I really like that idea :lol:
 
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