Revolution: with BarbarianCiv, Rebellion, AIAutoPlay

Dom Pedro II said:

I've seen the Mongolian empire die at least three times. The Mongolians as of the last turn I played (around 1906) were just being created.

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I've also noticed that, depending on the specifics of the game setup, one civ can be rather sadistic and keep coming back for more ... one reason for this can be all the asian art style civs other than the Mongols are already taken. Then, if the rebel Mongols never manage to take a city, they aren't considered a legitimate player and can be respawned over and over ... but should they ever take a city, they will never again come back randomly. Only if cities they have some culture in rebel will they rise from the ashes.

Dom Pedro II said:

They had apparently completely caught up with me in terms of techs right at the outset.

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When a rebel civ is spawned, it is given all but a handful of the most expensive techs known by the motherland ... since the Mongols were getting respawned, they were getting new techs. This seemed much more reasonable to me than having civs respawn with only the techs they knew at the time of death ... thoughts?

Dom Pedro II said:

Also, they were at war with THREE civilizations... I don't know how that happened

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This is a bug. Essentially, while the new civ has its slate wiped clean, the other teams do not forget the past transgressions of the player in a slot, even when the player changes ... this will be fixed in the next version.

Dom Pedro II said:

One problem I have at this point with this is that I see these civs coming and going but I never have any idea where they're rebelling from. If I know the civ they're breaking away from, I'd like to have some kind of a prompt to tell me that these rebels have sprung up there. The only reason I knew who the Indians broke away from is when they captured Nara and I got a prompt about it. I still don't know who the Mongols carved themselves out of...

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Are you thinking a popup or just an interface message? Right now, (believe it's in the version posted here) an interface message is shown if you can see the city where the rebellion is taking place ... perhaps switching to a have you met the civ that's suffering the rebellion would be more appropriate.

jdog5000 said:

If you're only looking for this feature, I think someone has already done it ...

After a quick forum search, doesn't look like it has been done well yet, but it is on TheLopez's list:
List
Depending on how his efforts turn out, I may add it in as an optional component. We'll see.

EDIT: Also check out:
Assasin Mod

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But I want play your Revolution mod with Assassin mod, can you make me a fusion of two mods ? In your Revolution mod a your city can become an indipendence state ?

jdog5000 said:

When a rebel civ is spawned, it is given all but a handful of the most expensive techs known by the motherland ... since the Mongols were getting respawned, they were getting new techs. This seemed much more reasonable to me than having civs respawn with only the techs they knew at the time of death ... thoughts?

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Seems fairly reasonable to me. I had recalled you saying that this would be the case. I was just surprised that they seemed to have all of the techs I had and I was fairly advanced... it's also possible that for some reason we weren't able to trade techs and so it just looked as though we were both equal in technology.

This is a bug. Essentially, while the new civ has its slate wiped clean, the other teams do not forget the past transgressions of the player in a slot, even when the player changes ... this will be fixed in the next version.

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Good to know... they'd have been in real trouble if I hadn't swooped in and got the other enemies to declare peace.

Are you thinking a popup or just an interface message? Right now, (believe it's in the version posted here) an interface message is shown if you can see the city where the rebellion is taking place ... perhaps switching to a have you met the civ that's suffering the rebellion would be more appropriate.

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Either a popup or interface message would suffice, but I would indeed like it just knowing the civ in question and not having the city within view. I mean, you have to figure that something like that would be known in real life even if the receiver of the information did not have a direct insight into the affairs of the region in rebellion.

junter said:

But I want play your Revolution mod with Assassin mod, can you make me a fusion of two mods ? In your Revolution mod a your city can become an indipendence state ?

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I have other things to do at the moment, so unfortunately I cannot cobble together a fusion. As stated earlier, my goal is to make this mod stable and functional first, then perhaps explore other components to add in. I don't think adding the assasin functionality is a good idea at this time. As for your other question, please check out earlier post.

I'm sorry but I can't get to work at all I did everything you said but othing happens

Several people seem to be having problems getting it to work, I'll post a new version soon that will warn you if it encounters the most common problems. Just to reiterate, I believe the following is the main problem:

Most likely this is a result of the game being unable to find Revolution.ini ... the path where the mod is installed must be (civ install directory)\Mods\Revolution\, you might have gotten a 1 at the end of Revolution from the .zip (previous version of the mod was taking up Revolution.zip when I uploaded this version).

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jdog5000 said:

Several people seem to be having problems getting it to work, I'll post a new version soon that will warn you if it encounters the most common problems. Just to reiterate, I believe the following is the main problem:

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How can I play to your Revolution mod and to the Assassin mod contemporarily? Help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will just let you look at these screenshots...

I'm playing as the Inca. I invaded Spain. Spain at this point had nothing more than Longbowman, Macemen, and Catapults. I was attacking with Grenadiers and Cannon.

Now... no sooner did I get one of the Spanish core cities than I got a prompt demanding 1475 gold in order to pay off a group of rebels outside the city of Barcelona... I had at that point 600 gold to my name. Consequence: the French Empire revolted against me...

Now... if anything, it should've been the Spanish Empire, but I think you're taking care of that already. However, in addition to this, it seems to me that a land that has been plagued by war and its people have been decimated and subjugated should not have a 25-unit army comprised of Riflemen, Knights, etc. springing up from no where. Maybe the surrounding circumstances should be taken into account?

For example, Barcelona here is a size 17 city with little left surviving in terms of improvements... maybe improvements, population, etc. should be taken into account to determine how much force the rebels could muster? Because this here is a game-ender for me.. Not only did I just evacuate the city and run, but the French will probably take out half the Greek Empire as well... and I'll probably have to evacuate even more cities to spare my army.

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Dom Pedro II said:

I will just let you look at these screenshots...

I'm playing as the Inca. I invaded Spain. Spain at this point had nothing more than Longbowman, Macemen, and Catapults. I was attacking with Grenadiers and Cannon.

Now... no sooner did I get one of the Spanish core cities than I got a prompt demanding 1475 gold in order to pay off a group of rebels outside the city of Barcelona... I had at that point 600 gold to my name. Consequence: the French Empire revolted against me...

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First let me thank you for all of your dillegent play testing! Your ideas and suggestions (and bug reports) have already really helped get this mod going.

Currently, you should get 8-10 turns after taking the city of rebellion free time ... one issue I've noticed and probably bit you really hard here is that large cities are doing the normal just conquered revolt thing all of that time, so you have no chance to "stabilize" the city. I've already made some changes that will help keep these large cities from spiraling out of control like this, but clearly more needs to be done. I think I'll add to the rebel free time you get after taking a city, maybe make it 12 or so turns? Or 50% longer than the revolt timer?

Dom Pedro II said:

Now... if anything, it should've been the Spanish Empire, but I think you're taking care of that already. However, in addition to this, it seems to me that a land that has been plagued by war and its people have been decimated and subjugated should not have a 25-unit army comprised of Riflemen, Knights, etc. springing up from no where. Maybe the surrounding circumstances should be taken into account?

For example, Barcelona here is a size 17 city with little left surviving in terms of improvements... maybe improvements, population, etc. should be taken into account to determine how much force the rebels could muster? Because this here is a game-ender for me.. Not only did I just evacuate the city and run, but the French will probably take out half the Greek Empire as well... and I'll probably have to evacuate even more cities to spare my army.

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So yes, in the next version if a city is rebelling against you and you're at war with the dominant culture in the city, the "rebels" will join forces with your enemy. Perhaps to take into account the ravishes of war in the region, I'll cap the number of rebel units in these circumstances to say a third of the city size? So your Barcelona example would generate 5 or 6 Spanish troops.

I'm also changing the method for choosing what units the rebels get ... right now, they get what you can build in the city. It seemed reasonable, but if a city rebels right after you get a new military tech you can see rebel tanks before you've even built one! Sounds like a similar thing may have happened here with the riflemen. The new model will be based on what units you and the dominant culture have in the area, so you won't see units you haven't built yet.

Thanks again all your help and suggestions! The new version will be ready this weekend ...

jdog5000 said:

Currently, you should get 8-10 turns after taking the city of rebellion free time ... one issue I've noticed and probably bit you really hard here is that large cities are doing the normal just conquered revolt thing all of that time, so you have no chance to "stabilize" the city. I've already made some changes that will help keep these large cities from spiraling out of control like this, but clearly more needs to be done. I think I'll add to the rebel free time you get after taking a city, maybe make it 12 or so turns? Or 50% longer than the revolt timer?

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This dynamic actually interests me, because on the one hand, it may seem less fun, but on the other hand, it portrays (IMHO) the real-world difficulty and risk with overextending an empire.

One problem I have with the Civ series is that bigger is always better and there are insufficient disincentives for taking land from other civs. This mod has been a big step towards correcting that -- especially the very ridiculous mechanism wherein you are better off wiping out a civ (eliminating unrest) than capturing a few cities with lots of unrest.

I am saying all of this with minimal reference to current events, of course

Padmewan said:

This dynamic actually interests me, because on the one hand, it may seem less fun, but on the other hand, it portrays (IMHO) the real-world difficulty and risk with overextending an empire.

One problem I have with the Civ series is that bigger is always better and there are insufficient disincentives for taking land from other civs. This mod has been a big step towards correcting that -- especially the very ridiculous mechanism wherein you are better off wiping out a civ (eliminating unrest) than capturing a few cities with lots of unrest.

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I definitely here what you're saying and I agree that rebellions should be more than just a nuisance... especially in a newly conquered empire.

However, rebellions, like many wars need time to build up. A rebellion starts out small and can becoming increasingly larger. There have been certain times where an imperial force has been caught off guard by a large rebel army... one that leaps to mind immediately was the Romans in Britain going up against Boudica. The Romans really got caught with their pants down. However, even then, they were fighting a force with vastly superior numbers but greatly inferior training and technology... and that was why the Romans managed to win in the end.

That said, a massive force of technologically comparable units with no training disadvantages springing up out of nowhere just doesn't fly. I don't mind losing some of the cities I'd just captured and having to wage a new war to get them back.. I do, however, mind having to fight against an unstoppable force that sprang up out of a backwards and undeveloped civ who I was not even done conquering yet.

But yes, I think it should be difficult to hold onto territories, and I also think that massive empires should jeopardize not only your possessions but even your homeland as well since, as they say, the bigger they are the harder they fall.

I suggest that the quality of city tiles should influence the city's chance of rebellion. If a city has any number of desert or tundra tiles, it should add to the chances of a rebellion. People are already affected from surrounding jungle and flooded plains with poor health.
Poorly placed cities should place a higher strain on keeping those people happy with their leaders.



How are you working on the pirates concept?

The next version is almost ready, will be posted this evening ... I think it's a major step forward for the Rebellion part of the mod. More on that later ... But now, to wet your appetite, I present the history of the English Empire:

First, there were 5, spread unevenly on two continents ... I was "playing" (almost entirely automated) the salmon colored Spanish Empire.



Then, in 695 AD Victoria organized the the Barbarian horde and formed the English Empire! Will it stand the test of time?



Things were looking pretty good for England for nearly a thousand years. They expanded and had a nice area between the newly formed Persian Empire and an old Civ, the French led by Napoleon.



But then, with the pounding of hooves, Napoleon struck! Victoria was caught unprepared and was easily overrun ...



A dark period ensued for the English people, subjugated by the French for nearly 60 years. But Napoleon was overconfident, and attacked Tokogawa and the Japanese. With Napoleon occupied elsewhere, the English people saw their oppurtunity and rose up to throw off the shackles of French oppresion!

Over the years they slowly worked away at Napoleon's power, and managed to free most of their people. While they never regained their former glory, they did manage to make a solid claim to independence and ended the game a free people.



Here's the power history for the whole game. There were other interesting stories as well, but I thought this one captured the BarbarianCiv and Rebellion parts quite well.



(Yes, Alexander shows up twice ... incarnation 1 is actually the one in slot 17, his rebellion failed to capture a city and therefore the Greeks and Alexander were not considered taken. Then, when another rebellion occured later, the rebellion in slot 15 had died and Alexander was again chosen to lead a rebellion. No one subsequently overwrote those slots).

This looks great! I'm looking forward to your next version.

New version 0.35 posted on front page. As you can see in the change log, a lot of changes to the Rebellion component and some bug fixes. A few tweaks to BarbarianCiv as well.

The most exciting change is the ability to take control of a rebellion and fight your own empire! This is a serious challenge ... I'll post a brief guide on how to maximize your chances some time soon.

Notable fixes include personalities now changing whenever a leader is changed and at war status being reset for a civ spawned in a "pre-owned" slot. The ridiculous super-rebellion encountered by Dom Pedro will also not happen in this new version.

As always, feedback is very much appreciated ... Enjoy!

jdog5000 said:

New version 0.35 posted on front page. As you can see in the change log, a lot of changes to the Rebellion component and some bug fixes. A few tweaks to BarbarianCiv as well.

The most exciting change is the ability to take control of a rebellion and fight your own empire! This is a serious challenge ... I'll post a brief guide on how to maximize your chances some time soon.

Notable fixes include personalities now changing whenever a leader is changed and at war status being reset for a civ spawned in a "pre-owned" slot. The ridiculous super-rebellion encountered by Dom Pedro will also not happen in this new version.

As always, feedback is very much appreciated ... Enjoy!

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It's possible comunicate to Barbarians as a normal civilization ? This'd be great !

junter said:

It's possible comunicate to Barbarians as a normal civilization ? This'd be great !

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Can you create in this mod the spy that can make a riot and can steal a technology from a rival civilization ?

Hello, the new version of Revolution mod doesn't work, I tried the new mod today and the rebellion there isn't ! When I begin a game there is always written 10 remaining turns! Is this a bug?