Warhammer Fantasy Mod 2.5

It seems that there are some confusion here, but not from my end. Maybe one last attempt to clear it up? Besides, who can resist refuting an article that mentions human private parts...

I never said I own the mod. In fact, no one can claim its ownership because the mod is a collection of many works by different authors. I do own, however, most of the content I created. The fact that they are in the mod is irrelevant, because they are independent works, available on this site, and not related to GW IP. See below.

No one can claim its ownership because the mod is derivative work of Firaxis and GW. Please re-read my post earlier or http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.html#derivative/. I was contending with the fact you are claiming you own all of the content you created for WF mod. Now you are claiming you own most of the content...

There is a misconception that if you created it then you own it. It is one of those "common sense" ones that is not compliant with law. It all depends on whether it is derivative work and if it is, whether the original IP owner (i.e. GW and Firaxis) transfer the ownernship/copyright to the authors (i.e. modders of Civ3 WH mod) of the derivative work.

If you created a description describing great cannon of WF world (which is GW IP), then the description itself is derivative work of GW WF IP. Images are in the grey areas depends on what they created for and origination.

For example, let's use a pcx of your p* which is an example in your post. If you created it, then it is owned by you. But if you released to public domain, which you and other authors did with the portion of images not created based on GW IP or Firaxis images, then no one can claim ownership or copyright to it. Public domain is also where IP go when their copyright or trademarks expire. See, in this case, you wouldn't have the ownership of rights to the said pcx of your p*.

I am very sorry this mod caused such a blow to creativity of the Civ3 modding community. Depriving the creators of rights to their work, however, is not stimulating either.

Not depriving, just stating what is governed by law. You were just misguided that those content were owned by you. If you want to change the law, either run for public office, or contact your federal senators and representatives.

I am sorry this might not stimulating modding community. But rest assured that even though many companies retain the rights to their IP and derivative works, as long as the usage is used according to their IP policies, they won't pursue any legal actions or even threaten legal actions.

All right, peace out.
 
Sorry to interrupt, but what rights do modders have in creating derivative work that is allowed, say by GW? Of corz the orginal owner owns the derivative works that infringes the IP of original materials. However, if the derivative works are created within the limits set out by the IP owner of the original material, I don't see why the authors of the derivative works do not own all rights except those reserved by the limits set out by the IP owner.

In short, my understanding of the IP of derivative works is that the creator of derivative works own all IP of it unless restricted by the IP holder of the original works. And unless stated otherwise in the users agreement, even Firaxis and Gamesworkshop can't just copy this mod and release it to the market by claiming these derivative works are owned by Firaxix & GW. [for the sake of making my point, i assume all works are based on Firaxis/GW works]

Thus, if anyone is suggesting the mod is placed on public domain and thus the IP owner losses the IP, one'll have to ask who owns the right of modifying the derivative works and have they waived their right in IP without restriction on public domain.

P.S. I havn't read the agreement from Firaxis. But that from GW doesn't say derivative works are owned by GW. It only limits how you should base your work form GW's IP for non-commercial purpose.
 
pff, seems the http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.html#derivative/ is quite powerful. But then you'll have to ask again if the derivative works are open to be modified by Firaxis/GW, as you can expect what they say in the original agreement to be limited to the modification of the original works...

i wonder if we can start a thread somewhere else to discuss this interesting issue. The discussion on IP is enlightening but quite inappropriate to proceed in this thread.
 
No one can claim its ownership because the mod is derivative work of Firaxis and GW. Please re-read my post earlier or http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.html#derivative/. I was contending with the fact you are claiming you own all of the content you created for WF mod. Now you are claiming you own most of the content...

No author suddenly loses rights to his work because someone has put his work into another, larger work... right? After all, that's why GW retains the right to its IP used in the mod. Can you finally understand that an "Elf" leaderhead created and released to CFC for use in fantasy mods, is first and foremost the author's work? The fact that it's then included in another work and named "Tyrion", does not suddenly deprive the author of rights to his work, as the very document you linked states.

There is a misconception that if you created it then you own it. It is one of those "common sense" ones that is not compliant with law. It all depends on whether it is derivative work and if it is, whether the original IP owner (i.e. GW and Firaxis) transfer the ownernship/copyright to the authors (i.e. modders of Civ3 WH mod) of the derivative work.

There is a misconception in your head that if something was included in the Warhammer mod, it's automatically based on GW IP policy. Most of the units and leaderheads were not created for this mod, but for the general use of civ3 community, or for other mods. More than that, these works are often original, and by default, copyrighted works, that have been later put into a larger work, the mod. But I'm repeating myself. If you don't understand that, you're in the wrong place.

For example, a pcx of your p*. If you created it, then it is owned by you. But if you released to public domain, which you and other authors did with the portion of images not created based on GW IP or Firaxis images, then no one can claim ownership or copyright to it. Public domain is also where IP go when their copyright or trademarks expire. See, in this case, you wouldn't have the ownership of rights to the said pcx of your p*.

Another law you've made up? So now, publishing something on the internet makes it "public domain"? A photo of my penis automatically receives copyright upon creation, unless I state otherwise, see your own link: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#hsc

Not depriving, just stating what is governed by law. You were just misguided that those content were owned by you. If you want to change the law, either run for public office, or contact your federal senators and representatives.

You have severe difficulties in understanding such basic terms as public domain, or realizing that a work does not suddenly lose it's copyright when included in another, so don't teach me law, thank you.
 
pff, seems the http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.html#derivative/ is quite powerful. But then you'll have to ask again if the derivative works are open to be modified by Firaxis/GW, as you can expect what they say in the original agreement to be limited to the modification of the original works...

i wonder if we can start a thread somewhere else to discuss this interesting issue. The discussion on IP is enlightening but quite inappropriate to proceed in this thread.

I agree this is getting off topic. If I see an IP thread in off topic section, I will subscribe to it.
 
No author suddenly loses rights to his work because someone has put his work into another, larger work... right? After all, that's why GW retains the right to its IP used in the mod.

I agree. Never said so. See below for clarification.

Can you finally understand that an "Elf" leaderhead created and released to CFC for use in fantasy mods, is first and foremost the author's work? The fact that it's then included in another work and named "Tyrion", does not suddenly deprive the author of rights to his work, as the very document you linked states.

In this case, you do not own the rights to the said "Elf" leaderhead (assuming it is not based on any other work owned by another person, then would be derivative work), because you release the work to public domain when you published WF mod to public. You yourself even stated that in the readme file. that the content is public domain.

Here is the definition of public domain.

Public domain comprises the body of knowledge and innovation (especially creative works such as writing, art, music, and inventions) in relation to which no person or other legal entity can establish or maintain proprietary interests within a particular legal jurisdiction.

As you can see, you lost the rights to the said "Elf" leaderhead.

There is a misconception in your head that if something was included in the Warhammer mod, it's automatically based on GW IP policy. Most of the units and leaderheads were not created for this mod, but for the general use of civ3 community, or for other mods. More than that, these works are often original, and by default, copyrighted works, that have been later put into a larger work, the mod. But I'm repeating myself. If you don't understand that, you're in the wrong place.

I cleared stated there are two reasons why you do not own the content. Whatever is created based on GW IP, you do not own since it is derivative work. Whatever you do create originally (completely), you do own until you release to public domain which is what you and other authors did, even stated by yourself in the readme file.

Another law you've made up? So now, publishing something on the internet makes it "public domain"? A photo of my penis automatically receives copyright upon creation, unless I state otherwise, see your own link: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#hsc

Yes, I am not denying that you do own the rights to your said pcx but only until you release the photo to public domain. The section of the article only denotes immediate rights of the created content, not content published to public domain.

You have severe difficulties in understanding such basic terms as public domain, or realizing that a work does not suddenly lose it's copyright when included in another, so don't teach me law, thank you.

Please see above in the post (two reasons of not owning rights), as you are confused about my points.
 
ED, if you want to continue this debate, let's open a different thread as it is getting off topic. At this rate of posting, this thread will overtake RFRE soon as in post counts, :D. I will be looking in the off topic forum.
 
In this case, you do not own the rights to the said "Elf" leaderhead (assuming it is not based on any other work owned by another person, then would be derivative work), because you release the work to public domain when you published WF mod to public. You yourself even stated that in the readme file. that the content is public domain.

"Most of the mod's graphics were created either by me or other CFC and CDG members, and can be used in other mods without our permission, as long as proper credit is given." - that sounds like a CC license, not PD. I don't even have to right to release other people's works into public domain. The fact that I've added a (C) and notice to VisualParadox's work, comes from his request that this specific note is given.

As you can see, you lost the rights to the said "Elf" leaderhead.

No I didn't, same as GW didn't lose their IP. No one can establish the ownership of the mod, but the constituent intellectual properties are retained. Otherwise I'd be able to deprive a lot of people and companies from their copyright laws, wouldn't I?

Moreover, from the same wiki
"A creative work is said to be in the public domain if there are no laws which restrict its use by the public at large."

The use of the mod is restricted by both GW and Firaxis, another reason why it is not public domain.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove? That you can freely modify the mod and publish it on your own? Of course you can, I can't stop you. But I can forget about common sense as well and ask you to remove my work from it.
 
"Most of the mod's graphics were created either by me or other CFC and CDG members, and can be used in other mods without our permission, as long as proper credit is given." - that sounds like a CC license, not PD. I don't even have to right to release other people's works into public domain. The fact that I've added a (C) and notice to VisualParadox's work, comes from his request that this specific note is given.

Notice that I didn't say all image content wherever they are applied in previous posts.

No I didn't, same as GW didn't lose their IP. No one can establish the ownership of the mod, but the constituent intellectual properties are retained. Otherwise I'd be able to deprive a lot of people and companies from their copyright laws, wouldn't I?
The difference between GW IP and your IP (the part that is completely original yours) is that they didn't release to public domain.


Moreover, from the same wiki
"A creative work is said to be in the public domain if there are no laws which restrict its use by the public at large."

The use of the mod is restricted by both GW and Firaxis, another reason why it is not public domain.

Never said the mod is public domain. There is difference between mod itself and content that went into mod. It seems that you are confused between the two. Mod itself is derivative work off GW and Firaxis as it infringe on their IP. And please refer to my previous post for details on the two reasons modders wouldn't own the rights to mod content.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove? That you can freely modify the mod and publish it on your own? Of course you can, I can't stop you. But I can forget about common sense as well and ask you to remove my work from it.

If you want to know my original point, please refer to my previous posts in this thread. But here is a short recap.

My original point was about the caretakers of WF2.5 are restricting or try to restrict what other modder wish to mod WF2.5 and share between them. Momentum was build up to add new units and perhaps more unit balancing earlier this month. All that momentum was squashed when Mtrn came out said it is against his wish for others to mod and post alternative biq and no new updates are planned. That is quite stiflingly the creativity that would otherwise gone to WF mod. I can understand why Mtrn wouldn't want to support a version of WF that is not blessed by him, and he doesn't have to. Just ignore the "can't find certain file" posts, etc.

Of course at certain point the conversation turned into a debate of IP between you and I.

I have no reason to take work originated from others and call them my own. It's not my style.
 
Never said the mod is public domain. There is difference between mod itself and content that went into mod. It seems that you are confused between the two. Mod itself is derivative work off GW and Firaxis as it infringe on their IP. And please refer to my previous post for details on the two reasons modders wouldn't own the rights to mod content.

You did not give any valid reasons. You somehow claim that I released all the mod contents into the public domain, which I didn't. I do not have right to release original, copyrighted works by 30+ people and companies, to public domain.

My original point was about the caretakers of WF2.5 are restricting or try to restrict what other modder wish to mod WF2.5 and share between them. Momentum was build up to add new units and perhaps more unit balancing earlier this month. All that momentum was squashed when Mtrn came out said it is against his wish for others to mod and post alternative biq and no new updates are planned. That is quite stiflingly the creativity that would otherwise gone to WF mod. I can understand why Mtrn wouldn't want to support a version of WF that is not blessed by him, and he doesn't have to. Just ignore the "can't find certain file" posts, etc.

Then deal with it and stop threatening me with law. Go somewhere else and pester other modders, I'm sure they'll love your approach.
 
You did not give any valid reasons. You somehow claim that I released all the mod contents into the public domain, which I didn't. I do not have right to release original, copyrighted works by 30+ people and companies, to public domain.

Please re-read my earlier posts. Never did I mention you alone release all content to public domain.

Then deal with it and stop threatening me with law. Go somewhere else and pester other modders, I'm sure they'll love your approach.

lol, didn't know you take it personally. It was a conversation about freedom or lack of in WF modding. IIRC, you started followed up on my posts. This debate is getting moot as you are getting personal. Actually it was getting moot earlier during the day. Wrote more posts clarify some IP confusions for you. If you want to discuss IP issue in general with me or others, there is always the off-topic forum.

As I have said before, it is a good mod. Keep up the good work in Med mod.
 
Wrote more posts clarify some IP confusions for you.

A great way to end discussion, indeed. Likewise, I'm happy that I could clarify your confusions about the mod's content, which you seemed to think is pretty much all based on GW or "Firafax" IP.
 
guys just give up, ED is never wrong. Ever. It is a little anoying at first but you'll soon get used to it.

Best post today. And so true. :)
 
To the best of my knowledge, posting your creation up to the internet doesn't constitute waiving your IP to what's called public domain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain
Here clearly states

"Any work (of certain, enumerated types) receives copyright as soon as it is fixed in a tangible medium."

If you want to claim some work has entered into public domain, it should either be an IP that's waived/disowned by it's owner, or that it is no longer copyrightable (mostly due to expiration of the copyright protected period). Thus if Disney didn't extend the copyright on mickey mouse and other characters created long ago, all would be able to use those disney characters as the IP leaves the "private domain - where the owner can own the IP privately to the exclusion of others" to "public domain - where no one can claim exclusive ownership and exclude other people to own it"

Thus, it's a misconception to think anything that are released to the internet are in "public domain". Making your work available to the public, be it through paper, CD or internet, doesn't automatically make destroy your ownership of the IP of your creation. Rather, it serves as an evidence that you have created your work and you can use the release date as evidence of earlier creation to claim infringement of your IP when you think someone else has infringed your IP.

No software companies loss their IP by releasing patches through internet. And unless contrary evidence are presented, the best argument should be that the IP of derivative works are owned by the original owners and they allow other users/modders to use those works under the restriction agreements. And try to carbon copy NY Times's web page and print it out for sale, and you'll get sued immediately.

EM has been correctly focusing on this point and stating again and again, many works in this and the previous warhammer fantasy mod are original creations of the people here. The work for bug-clearing, balancing stats, and choosing/begging for various art and units to be included are IP and should be considered as original creations that are owned by this fantastic team.

Other people may borrow the artworks and units from this forum as mtrn and EM did for the creation for this mod, but the .biq file that this team worked out and maintained are clearly hardship that deserves respect and recognition.

Thus, use this 2.5/2.51 mod under the terms set up by this team of owners.
No no for releasing derivative works of this mod. ;)

[Edit: Internet is considered as a tangible medium as it can be perceived by our senses. As contrasted to intangilbe medium like "idea in my brain" that cannot be sensed by other parties until they are fixed on tangible medium - like paper or internet]
 
guys? let it be. Those who want to post alternate .biq files don`t have time to do so, the rest of us are fine with the mod team`s wishes, so it pretty much a closed matter. If you guys want to discuss legal stuff go to the OT forums, and be sure to invite Scytale, he`s a lawyer :)

Now, does anyone have a good story about how they gave their neighbouring civs a good trashing? :bounce:
 
I regret to say i'm quite noob in playing this game :p
always get into a mess of not expanding quick enough.

Q1. Is Skavan's Warp lightening Cannon and Lizardmen's Slann Mage the only units that has Bombardment Range of 2? All other ranged units seem only having a range of 0 or 1.

I'm quite stucked in using all horsemen/knight etc 2 movement points units for my invasion force and usually fared badly against spearmen/pikemen in cities.

Q2. Any suggestion for good invasion force?
 
If ya have some Ogre's then their fun, as are vampires, dragons, anything big and nasty really...

oh and pick on weak people to start with untill ya armies larger helps too, and pick on the guys lacking recources, cos they cant fight back to well, anyone without Iron and/or horses is a prime target :)
 
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