SGOTM 14 - Fifth Element

That first part does not need further discussion, but you can finish it in 5 minutes or so. You have only to move the warrior.

I'd like to hear more comments until turn 26, which is the target to finish your TS. In any case it won't need more than 10 minutes, i think.

But do what you prefer, some knowledge of the neighborhood can help the discussion.
 
So far only BL and WT have commented - I don't think we should start until we have more green lights.

Wait, I still wanna see the Turn 1 demographics screen before playing!

If it's not too much of a pain, I suggest we capture a demographics screen after each of the first few turns - I'm not yet sure what it will reveal, but we want to learn as much as possible about the other AI teams.

Please be really careful with the warrior - stick to forests if at all possible, and heal after any fights before moving on. Scouting is critical and I don't want to be stuck with only visibility of our BFC if our scouting warrior dies.
 
Sounds good to me! Hopefully we'll find some neighbors quickly.

The only bit that's fuzzy for me is what we're building after worker -> archer, but those two account for the first 25 turns so I guess that's up for discussion next TS.
 
Beestar, you're right i keep forgetting the demographics.

I think there's no debate if WT plays until AH+mining are researched and post 3 demographics: the first turn, 6th and last.

So we can look at them, see if there are horses in sight and what the warrior can reveal.
I don't think there will be much discussion on BW+wheel, maybe just the order.

I think we can on the green light. Set next research as a placeholder, don't upload the save and wait for more discussion.
 
So, WithTea is right, i think we have enough to set the targets for the first TS:
1) settle in the desert 1W of the settler present position
2) worker first (15 turns), then archer work sheeps
3) research AH-mining (the order is NOT important, the sum is 13 turns and the worker needs 15, so...) then the wheel - BW
4) improve sheeps first, then gems
5) the 4 techs should be completed on turn 25, 3000 BC (probably 26 to see copper), so i propose he stops there
6) IIRC, in my test the worker finished to build the pasture and the mine 2 turns before BW, so he can jump on the PH 2NW and mine it
7) the warrior will move 2-3 tiles N (roughly), then S (roughly) along the coast, then NW (again, roughly)

for (2) I think warrior not archer. For (3) perhaps BW first, before wheel, and chop a 2nd worker ASAP, before mining the PH in (6)? I haven't had a chance to test in the modified save, so not sure whether that makes a difference. For (7) I propose a generally anti-clockwise movement for our exploring warrior, sticking to forests/hills as much as possible.

Let's not rush this! At normal speed the Micro is incredibly important for the first 50 turns, so let's ensure that we get it right.

Is it possible to work the lake early on for an extra commerce to speed up a tech usefully?

As I read it, even if everything else gets swapped around later. I should settle on the desert 1W. Build worker immediately. Research AH and mining. Hand off when Mining finishes. If there are no problems with that I'll do that tonight, and send the save in tonight, so people can discuss during their morning. (My middle of the night.)

It's likely that this is the right thing to do.

I second beestar: be ultra careful with the warrior. I'm convinced that earliest Oracle/Academy is vital, particularly with those gems. Building another warrior may delay those by a turn, which can have flow-on effects throughout the game.

As above, I propose a generally anti-clockwise movement of the warrior, bringing him back to guard the second city spot. BLubmuz propsed "the warrior will move 2-3 tiles N (roughly), then S (roughly) along the coast, then NW (again, roughly)". Not sure if others have thoughts about warrior exploration?
 
WithTea said:
We need masonry anyway
Your two sentences seems separated, but actually they're striclty tied.

Can we assume that, until proved the contrary, Culture can be the fastest VC?
I think that yes, we can (i already heard this, can't remember :p)

Why are we assuming that Culture is the best option for this game?
because our investigations on the initial save are telling us that's highly probable that:
1) we're in a land rich map, with no wrap
2) we're facing 8 AIs teamed in pairs, teching like Deity AIs or almost
3) a war can be difficult, since we'll face 2 AIs at once, not considering the usual dogpile if they're friendly with some neighbour (so that we can have 4 AIs sending units)
4) vassal are off
5) Culture is shortest than Space
6) if 2) is correct, Diplo is out of question, not for random personalities itself. In fact we can understand after few turns after met them who we're actually facing. In our latest test game, Toku is offering OB, so he should be someone else. And if there's Mansa and he would not even offer OB he can be Toku, sure like Hell.

Then, back to the above quoted post. We're all but Dredd weak in whipping. If we go for culture running Caste and a lot of artists is the way to go. We can probably use slavery during a GAge, only for few turns to whip something useful, then back to Caste.
And WithTea is forgetting another aspect of researching Masonry: what if we find marble? Better build a quarry than chop like mad. Or we can do both. Once arrived at that point, we can shoot for Mono, to ensure we have 3 religions. I have no doubts that we can found Tao.
And the city by the stone must be up and running asap. So, if we find marble in the neighborhood, city 2 there, city 3 by the stone ASAP.

I think we probably need to run a practice game or two with the AI teams in place, and a similar starting position, in order to test this. I'll set up a game over the next couple days, could be useful for someone else to also do so.

It would be a strange game indeed in which Culture was the fastest VC. This may be that strange game, but I'm not sure that we can assume that culture will be fastest. There are a lot of complications with Culture. On the other hand, it's a nice "guaranteed" VC: Once we are 50 turns from victory there's not much that would stop us rolling it up whever we want to.

This is a tricky decision that we'll need to make based on limited data.

One thing I do agree on is that if we are going culture, then we should pursue it 100%. It will not be competitive with military solutions otherwise. In particular there are two things to do early on: a large investment of hammers into missionaries and cathedrals, and an early GP farm pumping nothing but Artists. Early Music is key for getting the cathedrals built asap - that is often the limiting factor.

I've compared dates for VCs in the HOF, in BTS, at Normal speed and Emperor or Immortal difficulty, on Standard or Large maps. This isn't definitive of course. Some of these VCs have had a gauntlet, which means that the date will be close to the optimal date. Others will be a single attempt.

Emperor difficulty / Normal maps:

Conq: 940AD
Cult: 1530AD
Diplo: 1270AD
Dom: 1270AD
Space:1685AD

Emperor difficulty / Large maps:

Conq: 1480AD
Cult: 1818AD
Diplo: N/A (1800AD for quick and epic speed)
Dom: N/A (>1924 for quick and epic speed)
Space: 1854AD

Immortal difficulty / Normal maps:

Conq: 1070AD
Cult: 1650AD
Diplo: 1808AD
Dom: 1490AD
Space: 1800AD

Immortal difficulty / Large maps:

Conq: NA (2020AD for quick and epic speed)
Cult: NA (1570 or 1665 for quick and epic speed)
Diplo: 1560AD
Dom: 880AD
Space: 1910AD
 
WithTea said:
We need masonry anyway
Your two sentences seems separated, but actually they're striclty tied.

Can we assume that, until proved the contrary, Culture can be the fastest VC?
I think that yes, we can (i already heard this, can't remember :p)

Why are we assuming that Culture is the best option for this game?
because our investigations on the initial save are telling us that's highly probable that:
1) we're in a land rich map, with no wrap
2) we're facing 8 AIs teamed in pairs, teching like Deity AIs or almost
3) a war can be difficult, since we'll face 2 AIs at once, not considering the usual dogpile if they're friendly with some neighbour (so that we can have 4 AIs sending units)
4) vassal are off
5) Culture is shortest than Space
6) if 2) is correct, Diplo is out of question, not for random personalities itself. In fact we can understand after few turns after met them who we're actually facing. In our latest test game, Toku is offering OB, so he should be someone else. And if there's Mansa and he would not even offer OB he can be Toku, sure like Hell.

Then, back to the above quoted post. We're all but Dredd weak in whipping. If we go for culture running Caste and a lot of artists is the way to go. We can probably use slavery during a GAge, only for few turns to whip something useful, then back to Caste.
And WithTea is forgetting another aspect of researching Masonry: what if we find marble? Better build a quarry than chop like mad. Or we can do both. Once arrived at that point, we can shoot for Mono, to ensure we have 3 religions. I have no doubts that we can found Tao.
And the city by the stone must be up and running asap. So, if we find marble in the neighborhood, city 2 there, city 3 by the stone ASAP.

I got carried away and didn't actually address your points!

Firstly we only need Masonry to work the stone. It's not clear to me that stone is better than working more food tiles (up to turn 70ish), but I haven't played around with the second city. We won't really know whether we need to work stone until we see some more land. I do agree that if we are teching Masonry anyway, that Monotheism isn't much extra.

On point 1) - why do we think it's land rich? Also, we could be on an isolated island or have only a long thin link with other landmasses, and lots of water.

On points 2) and 3) They aren't gonna tech like Diety AIs. It's Emperor level, and SGOTMs play easier than normal games. Because this is an SGOTM, let's pretend we're playing Monarch against teams of AIs - I'd be confident that our tech rate would be very competitive! With respect to wars, it's likely that the AI teams are placed at the four compass points. We'll be able to use geography to ensure that we're focussing on 2 AIs at a time - and remember that, as an SGOTM, this is like Monarch level. Other teams will successfully pursue military VCs, despite vassals off and teams. We need to decide whether we can compete in that sphere. In SGOTM 12 we were up there with the best in terms of military strategy.

On point 6) I'm not sure why Diplo will be impossible? Particulary Diplomination, where we own a significant portion of the world popuation, and only need one or two AIs to be friendly. It's naturally deeper into the tech tree than Culture,a nd doesn't require anywhere near as much infrastructure.

This is tricky! I'm actually leaning twoards WithTea's earlier arguments that we seem to have a strong basis in Cultural VCs, and therefore we should head that way. It is a risky strategy, but could pay off with a gold medal (if the map favours that choice) or nothing. In many ways I prefer that to a "middle of the road" approach where we keep our options open.

Keen to hear everyone's thoughts!
 
I got carried away and didn't actually address your points!

Firstly we only need Masonry to work the stone. It's not clear to me that stone is better than working more food tiles (up to turn 70ish), but I haven't played around with the second city. We won't really know whether we need to work stone until we see some more land. I do agree that if we are teching Masonry anyway, that Monotheism isn't much extra.

On point 1) - why do we think it's land rich? Also, we could be on an isolated island or have only a long thin link with other landmasses, and lots of water.

My guess is that assumption based on Meow's statement that it might be a wheel style map. Of course we have no way of knowing until we get some boats and scouts out and about.

On points 2) and 3) They aren't gonna tech like Diety AIs. It's Emperor level, and SGOTMs play easier than normal games. Because this is an SGOTM, let's pretend we're playing Monarch against teams of AIs - I'd be confident that our tech rate would be very competitive! With respect to wars, it's likely that the AI teams are placed at the four compass points. We'll be able to use geography to ensure that we're focussing on 2 AIs at a time - and remember that, as an SGOTM, this is like Monarch level. Other teams will successfully pursue military VCs, despite vassals off and teams. We need to decide whether we can compete in that sphere. In SGOTM 12 we were up there with the best in terms of military strategy.

Agreed someone will successfully take over the world. I think (remember I Think) that Neil will have taken extra precautions to make sure this doesn't end in the same quick fashion as some of the previous games. So based on that assumption, I think that Culture just might be a viable choice.

On point 6) I'm not sure why Diplo will be impossible? Particulary Diplomination, where we own a significant portion of the world popuation, and only need one or two AIs to be friendly. It's naturally deeper into the tech tree than Culture,a nd doesn't require anywhere near as much infrastructure.

Impossible is relative. If the AI are on teams with random personalities then Diplomination is the only form of Diplomacy that will work in a fashion we are all used too. Otherwise the AI will have different attitudes than we are used to and will be hard to get pleased. In general, I think this is a longer VC to get to.

This is tricky! I'm actually leaning twoards WithTea's earlier arguments that we seem to have a strong basis in Cultural VCs, and therefore we should head that way. It is a risky strategy, but could pay off with a gold medal (if the map favours that choice) or nothing. In many ways I prefer that to a "middle of the road" approach where we keep our options open.

Keen to hear everyone's thoughts!

Hear, hear! I agree that we need to go all out and try to either win or die trying. GOLD OR WOOD!!!

As Ricky Bobby said "If you ain't first, you're last! Shake and Bake!!"


I give the green light. Bring home AH and Mining and lets get this show on the road.
 
Up middle of the night. Asthma attack. Caught up on the discussion. Went for settle. Developments and screen shots. Did not want to do anything else till people could reorder with new developments. Especially mess with the tech tree, which will need recalibrating.

1. Deer! Second food source. I don't know where hunting was on the order, but we're going to need it sooner rather than later. The good news is it's cheap.

2. Pigs - not inside city sphere.

3. Demographics screen capture as soon as settled in post.

4. Still say masonry is important. Though definitely less so than hunting.

5. Ran through an emperor level standard map with Lincoln yesterday. Pulled 1838 with wonder based. If we go for wonders, especially the truly useful, MoM and Sistine, we have to have marble. Otherwise we are going to need to slog through with specialists to get a good date. (I prefer wonders myself, but have to be realistic on whether that's the best choice for the map.)

6. I think it was dredd who said that the first military unit should be warrior. I concur.

7. While general warrior movement of mostly counter clock-wise was good. The pigs and early AH lead me to think that finding out the situation around the pigs for a possible replacement site of city two, is now very important.

8. Screenshots.
 

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sweet! except those deer really mess up all the micro I just worked out :(

It's probably best to slot hunting in right now, for the AH bonus, but that will depend on worker moves. We'll need some more testing.

Lotsa water to the west, it's everywhere! I reckon warrior should go 1NE (to scope stone site) then 1NW then head generally W, maximising de-fogging while remaining safe.

Sorry to hear 'bout the asthma, and hope you're all good, but pretty happy that you grabbed those screenies!


Anyway, without the deer, AND AT CHIEFTAN..... GAH... I got:
Oracle for CS on Turn 60 (in NY)
with an Academy in Washington.
Washington built/chopped 2nd worker and settler, both at size 3
NY founded Turn 42
2 workers
3 warriors
43/100 for our 3rd settler in Washington (at turn 60)
Have BW, Wheel
No Masonry or Monotheism
chopped 4 forests surrounding Washington and 4 around NY, most with Maths bonus. That's what forests are for, right?

in detail:

Tech: AH-mining-BW-writing-Maths(!)(for +50% to chops)-wheel-myst-med-PH(turn 50)

Build: worker-warrior (focus on food as priority)-worker(turn 28; work forested spices)-settler(turn 40)-library(still working spices, not mined PHs, switch to PHs on turn 44; on turn 47 switch to max hammers: we lose 3 food but no population) (library compelte turn 48, work sheep, gems, 2 scientists)-warrior(fogbust/explore)-settler(work mined PH once GS pops)

worker1 pastures sheep then mine gems, chops silk, mines forest plains hill, chops forest near 2nd PH (maths bonus), chop forest left by worker2, go to New York (then farm, pasture, chop)

worker2 mines forest plains hill-chop different forest near 2nd PH (leave at 1 turn left, awaiting maths)-mine 2nd PH-build road to New York(then pasture, chop)

New York founded turn 42 between corn and cows. Due to the number of forests surrounding NY, I chop out the Oracle from there.
Build: Library-switch to Oracle ASAP (begin turn 50, complete turn 60)
 
No need to worry on the asthma dredd. Thanks for the concern. It was just what got me up in the middle of the night. Actually the exact middle of my night.

I reckon warrior should go 1NE (to scope stone site) then 1NW then head generally W, maximising de-fogging while remaining safe.

I agree.
 
a) Firstly we only need Masonry to work the stone.

b) On point 1) - why do we think it's land rich? Also, we could be on an isolated island or have only a long thin link with other landmasses, and lots of water.

c) On points 2) and 3) They aren't gonna tech like Diety AIs. It's Emperor level, and SGOTMs play easier than normal games. Because this is an SGOTM, let's pretend we're playing Monarch against teams of AIs - I'd be confident that our tech rate would be very competitive! With respect to wars, it's likely that the AI teams are placed at the four compass points. We'll be able to use geography to ensure that we're focussing on 2 AIs at a time - and remember that, as an SGOTM, this is like Monarch level. Other teams will successfully pursue military VCs, despite vassals off and teams. We need to decide whether we can compete in that sphere. In SGOTM 12 we were up there with the best in terms of military strategy.
a) Can be wrong. What if we find marble?
About Teching Mono, i can be convinced to skip it. In a way or another a 3rd religion will spread and the 3rd cathedral is not so urgent.

b) yes it's an assumption like many of my points. but we can easily have a confirmation looking at the demographics. Our Capital will start with 8 land tiles and 1 lake, thus it willl be easy to see the % and calculate a not-so-roughly land amount.

c) sure, we did very well in SG12 on the military side. probably without that GLH the Ducks won't have beaten us. Not sure what made the OSS so good. But this can be only military if we decide Culture is not the way to go.

On a more close decision, i propose to skip build warriors. They are of no use and with a bad RNG a single warrior/archer can even take a city. Archers are good even against axes when fortified in a city. More expensive, but more safety.

I will run another test skipping Mono but trying to arrive to 3 cities or with the 3rd settler en route by the Oracle.
 
My decision to go with warrior for first military unit is based on the ideas that first we need something cheap to build while we grow a little pop. Second that we won't have archery up and running before it's time to build.
 
My decision to go with warrior for first military unit is based on the ideas that first we need something cheap to build while we grow a little pop. Second that we won't have archery up and running before it's time to build.
We START with archery!

- I need the F8 main screen to know our % of land with those 8 land tiles.
- Then another thing. In my tests i researched AH in 8 and mining in 5. I can read 12 turns to AH in your screenie. WTF?
- have you stopped here? i mean, in turn 1?
we have to restart our saves and our tests, even if i don't know how (for now). Maybe the F8 can tell us something.

Well, our first decision (to jump on that hill to explore) proved to be a great one. Let's try to not waste it. I'm almost sure we have a big advantage on the other teams. For now.

I started a long post, when i submitted i've seen all those news.
 
Shame on you, Dredd!
I checked the F8 settings and the difficulty is CHIEFTAIN!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

We need to start all the tests from scratch.

Sorry UT to have posted you're rusted. You was probably running another test map with the correct settings.
Now, hands off from the tests, let me build a GOOD one. I'm a WB wizard (i think) ;)

WithTea, please gimme the infos i requested as soon as you read the thread. And don't move an atom!!!
 
:lol: chieftain :lol: I was curious how you were getting CS sling so quick on *emperor*

I also noticed all the water to the west. Obviously we need a bit more scouting to confirm, but I think that is more evidence of a wheel style map. We also spot some Jungle which means we are near the equator (to our south I believe based on all the northern forests)

So we started out debating getting an archer asap assuming that we were given archery as a starting tech for a reason and now we're considering not even building a warrior for defense/garrison? Bad idea imo. All our tests and MM mean nothing if this version of Oz has flying monkeys running around to raze our capital.

Other issues:

-No matter our chosen strategy/vc we are going to CS sling. We should focus on that and the founding of another city or two first and foremost.

-We should wait until meeting the neighbors and seeing more of the map to commit to either military options / culture options.

-However, if we haven't gleaned enough info by our Oracle finish date we should still make a commitment one way or the other.
 
Pardon the double post.

I'm no demographic guru, but does our #1 rank in approval rating indicate that we are the only CHM leader? Of course ai teams may muddle things up. Even if my guess was accurate that wouldn't narrow ai leaders down too much, but it atleast eliminates some possibilities.

CHM leaders:

DeGualle
Napoleon
Cyrus
Churchill
Brennus
Boudica
Hannibal
Washington
 
Shame on you, Dredd!
I checked the F8 settings and the difficulty is CHIEFTAIN!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

We need to start all the tests from scratch.

Sorry UT to have posted you're rusted. You was probably running another test map with the correct settings.
Now, hands off from the tests, let me build a GOOD one. I'm a WB wizard (i think) ;)

WithTea, please gimme the infos i requested as soon as you read the thread. And don't move an atom!!!

Yes I have been using my test still so that would be my guess as to the difference but then again, I am rusty! ;)

So Wizard can you wait to build the test game. In about 5 hours my kids will be in bed and I can make a test that has team AI and is on a hub map. Then you can modify the starting location to match what we have so far. I get bogged down in the details in WB but I do know how to make a start that has team AI (not a straight forward process I assure you).

Let me know if this is okay with you.

UT
 
I'll get the F8 screen in just a moment. You're right about the archery. It completely slipped my mind. Then by all means consider my vote on that switched to archer.

WithTea, please gimme the infos i requested as soon as you read the thread. And don't move an atom!!!

:confused:


The F8 screens
 

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Let me know if this is okay with you.
I already have a save with what we can guess are the required settings.

Now, i'd like to wait for WT for the land % to verify if we can be in the right way with the settings you listed (and wich i used, BTW).

If this is true, i will proceed in WB.

BUFFY doesn't let you set any team, so you need to start a game with plain BtS, toy a bit in WB, save and finally load it as a scenario in "BUFFYed" BtS to have it working. Then refine it in WB. Salt and pepper as needed.
 
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