ALC Game #23: America/Lincoln

I finished the fight with the lone Chariot so I could give it Medic I, ready to be paired with my first Great General and become my MASH unit.

I think it's time you start using a Woodsman III unit with Leadership who then follows the Medic line for this, especially since you develop at least one Woody anyway. You don't go for pure movement 2 stacks anyway.

I see no reason not to take the peace deal, it's very good.
 
The State of the World, 275 BC

Let's start, as usual, with a look at the map. First, the west, focusing on Aztec territory.



I'm convinced that Zara is somewhere on the other side of that tip of land we can see just SW of Aztec territory. I've seen Zara's work boats, but not any of his units. Once the war with Huayna is done, I'll need to do some more exploring of my own.

Montezuma captured that barb city 2N of the northern iron. Notice that there's elephants and marble up there--making the territory all the more desirable. And if I leave Monty for too long, he could use those gems around Teocihuacan to tech past me. Like I said, I think war is inevitable for so many reasons.

Now the east, with the focus here on America, the remnants of the Incan civilization, and Egypt.




Huayna is down to one decidedly mediocre city, Machu Picchu. I decided to keep Tiwanaku, though fighting Hatty's culture is going to be a pain. I figure I'll farm that area, load it up with cultural buildings, and come Code of Laws and Caste System, I'll run as many Artist specialists as I can afford there. Oh, by the way, Hammurabi's territory begins on those three tiles of land you can see just across the bay from Tiwanaku.

As I mentioned above, if I leave him alone, Huayna will likely become someone's vassal as soon as Feudalism comes along. I could try to beeline to that tech myself so he might become my vassal, then I can demand the stone from him. But I rarely pursue Feudalism like that, and I don't think Huayna, in the state I've left him, will be that great a vassal--hardly worth the diplo hit from everyone else.

Another problem is that the only place he can really expand to--which you know he will--is that little strip of no man's land between New York and Cuzco with the fish off the coast. That could cut off my new possessions from my core cities--not good. I'm torn between rushing a Settler there myself (between the flood plains and chopping all the forests, my cities wouldn't mind a health boost), or letting him settle it for me and then taking it from his cold, dead hands.

If I do DoW on Huayna again, should I keep Machu Pichu, raze it, or give it to Hatty? All it's got going for it is the stone and spices--Hatty already owns the wheat and wine to the south--and it will be under tremendous Egpytian cultural pressure.

And which city do you think would be a good candidate for the Heroic Epic? Cuzco is a possibility, though it can also run several specialists, so its duties might become divided, which is not good for a HE city. The clam-wine-flood plain city is another possibility. I don't see a good Maoi Statues candidate yet--that may be much further down the road, up on that marble-fish peninsula north of Monty.

One other thing. There's a barb city that has appeared on the southern peninsula 1S of the wheat. I was thinking of taking my stack over there next and capturing it. I was thinking of keeping that city--it saves me a Settler and claims wheat, pigs, and horses. It's well-positioned to leave the deer-spice city on the SW coast as originally planned, and allows for a clam-wine-flood plain city on the desert hill 1N of the wine. Or is there a better arrangement of these city sites?

Now onto the advisor screens. First off, domestic advisor:



So after focusing on military, I've now switched to civilian builds. Washington, by the way, is perfectly poised to whip the library to completion on the very next turn.

Foreign advisor, relations and glance:





The good news here appears to be that once I'm done with Huayna and Monty, I'm well-positioned to settle back for a peaceful game until America's late-game UU and UB show up. My neighbours to the immediate west, Hatty and Hammy, are both Buddhist and on their way to Friendly; I can likely make them my triangle diplomacy partners, at least for the early game, provided they don't turn on each other for some reason. I'm hoping Gilgamesh is east of Hammy and will provide them both with a mutual enemy to hate. I may try to spread another religion to him other than Buddhism so their glares are turned in his direction.

Active trade deals:



Another reason I stayed friendly with Hatty, as you can see, is for the very beneficial trade deals I'm getting from her. I'll also gradually earn diplomatic bonuses for these deals with her and Hammurabi over time.

Resources:



I could trade gems to Hammy for fish, but I'm reluctant to do so. I already have the clams-for-rice deal for the diplo trade bonus, and I am reluctant to give the AI any more boosts than it already has. Bad enough I'm trading gems to Hatty.

Civics and trade route income:



So like I said, I'm convinced that Zara is on another continent since suddenly, the most lucrative trade routes are with him.

Techs:



Well, between this being Immortal level and my delaying the SE in favour of warring, this is as I expected. But as you saw above, I could close the gap considerably and at very low cost if I go for those deals with Montezuma and Huayna. I would catch up instantly with Hammurabi, Huayna, and Gilgamesh, for one thing. Well, at least on the visible techs, anyway.

I've picked Aesthetics as my next tech target, as it's usually a good backfill tech, but I'm wondering about that. It's the same price as a lot of other contemporary techs like Monarchy, so I usually have to research those for several turns to get the AI to part ways with them. And some techs, like Currency and Calendar, cost more. Should I, perhaps, pursue Metal Casting instead? Forges would be helpful both for production and would give +3 :) since I have gems, gold, and silver now. The AI usually stays away from it (though I notice Zara must have snagged it from the Oracle--it's a monopoly tech for him, so he won't trade it for a while), so it's an excellent backfill tech. And there are supposed to be more barb boats post-3.17 (though I haven't seen any yet), so with all the seafood I have, being able to build a few Triremes might not be a bad idea. What other thoughts do you have on research?

Military Advisor:



I'm only 4 XPs from my first Great General. He'll likely be earned early in the next war, whether that's with Huayna or with Monty. I'm really liking that peace deal from Huayna.

Religion:



I'm building a monastery in New York so I can spread the good word of Buddhism everywhere.

Victory conditions:



It's a little too early to comment, but many of you like seeing this screen as early as possible, so here it is.

Power graph:



I took a dip capturing Tiwanaku, as you can see, but I hop I'm powerful enough to keep Monty off my back until I'm ready for him. I just have to remember, I think, to keep going for military builds and not get caught up with civilian ones. As soon as I get Masonry, Boston gets a wall.

Demographics:



Top 5 Cities/Wonders:



So there you have it. Despite the higher difficulty level, each round contains several turns; I was expecting to go slower, but I'm whipping and warring, two things I'm very familiar and comfortable with. I have to admit that means I'm enjoying it more than the more peaceful (initially) Saladin game, hence the frequent updates.

Let that be a lesson to those of you who urge me to REX peacefully: a brutal, bloodthirsty, warmongering Sisiutil is a happy Sisiutil. ;)
 
I think it's time you start using a Woodsman III unit with Leadership who then follows the Medic line for this, especially since you develop at least one Woody anyway. You don't go for pure movement 2 stacks anyway.
I think the reason I usually don't is because I can have a Medic III Chariot easily available after the first GG, but a Woodsman III/Leadership/Medic III Axe takes a lot longer. So yes, it will have slightly better healing rates, but I'd rather have pretty darn good rapid healing rates ASAP. The earliest wars are the most crucial ones, and the toughest. I'd rather have my units healing rapidly during those wars rather than during later ones.
 
Excellent updates! I'd go for both deals with HC and Monty as they'll let you catch up. You shouldn't wait much longer to take HC's last city though, just to get him out of the way. Whether you should raze it or take it are for better players to debate.. :p Same on the barbarian city to the south.

The deal with Monty hardly assures longer peace but it's a good deal and it'll help you long enough to not get too far behind. You're going to be building up a massive army soon anyway so the more techs you have, the better!

Hatty is being very sweet. I think you should aim for her (and probably Hammurabi, he seems decent so far) to be a long-lasting ally.

I'm looking forward to what happens next! :)
 
Apparently pushing the "back" button can make you double post.. >_> Sorry!
 
Very nice rush. I always thougt Validator's advice is completely useless. He just cannot seem to focus on the small details. :D

Don't take those 3 techs. From what I've learned from the other high level threads you will depend on trade-whoring for a long time. Don't risk WFYABTA. Instead, just take math so you can keep Monty backwards and self-research the small techs when you need them.

Furthermore don't wait with the whip till you have returned on your happy cap. Whip infrastucture like crazy everywhere and then slowly grow back applying specialist if you reach your cap too soon.

I say get construction (for cats in the Monty war) and the other C-techs while building up your empire. After that you should be ready for the crazy guy.
 
I'm not sure if there's any reason for me to comment since you're bound to ignore it ;), but...

Monty was certainly busy in that round. The "war" with you (including the loss of the settler) didn't slow his REXing much. He's up to 9 cities (including 1 you haven't spotted). The city W of Washington is a real problem for you since it denies you one of your cities. He seems to have boxed you in rather well. It's too bad someone didn't warn you that might happen if you concentrated on Huayna. :mischief:

If you look closely you can see Zara's borders on the land W of Tenochtitlan. I guess Zara must have a city right there on the coast since I thought you need to have explored all the tiles along a coastal path to be able to use sea trade. The thing I don't understand is why the barb cities aren't blocking the trade route. I wonder if it's because you haven't spotted the actual barb city to the SW of Washington, just the borders? That would seem to be a bug if it is the reason.

One thing that concerns me about the peace deal with Huayna is that you'd be getting 3 cheap techs. You've already traded for 2 cheap techs from Hattie. So WFYABTA could become a problem. At this difficulty I would think tech trading would be critical to keep up with the AI's boosted tech rate. WFYABTA could be a game killer. I would be looking to finish Huayna off ASAP and get your military back west to capture whatever barb cities are still available. I would probably just raze Machu Pichu. It isn't going to be worth much to you and giving it to Hattie would just make her stronger.

Regarding research, it's tough to say what the most tradeable tech would be. If you research Aesthetics next and can't trade it do you have any use for it? MC might be a better choice just because it would at least be useful to you regardless of its trade value.

If you are going to spam farms around Tiwanaku you'll want to pillage any cottages before the city comes out of revolt.

And it would be nice if you could get a unit out to scout the eastern part of the landmass in the next round so we wouldn't have to speculate about how things are situated there.
 
goto war against monty again is my advice. you can try to capture some of his border cities, which are probably lightly defended. (please note: i love attritional wars)
 
Just had a look at the save:

First up, good war - things look pretty decent to me right now, despite the fact that you went for alphabet rather than aesthetics. That's the main lesson to be learned from the last round.

The trade with Monty's a safe one to make since he's nobody's worst enemy at the moment, and since the rest of the Buddhist club have alphabet he'll be able to trade with them anyway. Huayna will give you maths as part of a peace deal if you negotiate more aggressively, but I'd press on and kill him now - you've got a few swords one win from CR3 and you're only 4XP from your first GG: it seems a crime to stop now and be stuck with motherland unhappiness in your former-Incan cities. Machu Pichu's definitely one for razing though unless you've got a real hankering for a junker holy city (or some stone you're unlikely to use for anything other than Oxford/WP).

And speaking of holy cities, even though you're not spiritual I'd revolt out back to NSR for the first 10-20 turns of the next round. Hatty has a very high peaceweight and is therefore highly unlikely to attack you (especially when your power exceeds hers), and you could do with getting the significant cultural boost being heathen will get you in Tiwankwu and Cuzco. You won't see those FP villages for a long time otherwise. Since there's no other worthwhile city site between New York and Cuzco (apart from a mediocre fishing village), it's important to get the two former Incan cities to 150:culture: and their next border pop ASAP to discourage Hatty from settling there.

==========

Suggested plan for the next set:
  1. Revolt to NSR to get the culture boost in Cuzco and Tiwankwu.
  2. Finish off Huayna to get your GG and some CR3 swords; raze his last city as it's garbage and nobody's Jewish so you won't get a diplo penalty.
  3. Make the trade for maths with Monty. He can already trade with the others anyway and if he's building monasteries and spies, he's not building military units.
  4. Avoid aesthetics and beeline construction followed by currency to pull yourself out of the financial hole you'll be in when you start taking Aztec cities. Dotmaps be damned, they're all actually perfectly serviceable and will save you a lot of production/time in settlers.
  5. It might be worth settling your first GG to get some CR2/barrage cats out of the gate. New York would be the best spot for this as you can get 17:hammers:/turn there at size 7 with a mine on the grassland hill, which isn't bad for this stage of the game.

Edit: even the barb city that's sprung up S of Washington's a keeper IMO; it solves the problem of how to incorporate those horses nicely.
 
Ah so there is info about the Aztecs. Wonder who has caused Hammy to power up so much?

I've never seen an AI settle within one tile of a cultural border. He's more likely to settle in the forests west of Machu Pichu. I think you should beat him to it.

The Aesthetics Literature(Gt Library)-Music path nets a Great Artist, if first, and the other is the Drama-Philosophy path.

I wonder if Hatty's war chariot is scouting or is going to try destroy that Aztec axeman and its city. Hatty may be relying on Hammy and America coming to her aid in war.

Monty's power is rising, so he's busy building units. Concentrating on infrastructure seems suicidal. Aesthetics should be a monopoly tech, one that the ai will pay heavily for. Yara may not have company and may have MC precisely because he's behind in tech.

I can't quite see the logic of razing a city that would enable New York to have four religions, four monasteries, four temples and, conceivably, a cathedral in it.

Remind me, this is 155 turns into a game with a philosophical leader isn't it? Great people?
 
In BtS, on immortal, you should always go for aestethics rather than alphabet. Alphabet isn't needed for anything before PP/bulbing, and most of the AI's will beat you to it. It's easy to trade aestethics for alphabet after 2-3 turns of research invested to it. Aestethics also leads to literature, if you want the GL. So in general, aestethics is the better choice.
 
I'm really loving this quick updates! :D

Good job against Capac, I have to say I was very skeptical on whether or not you could do it.
 
Definitly take the peace, in my opinion. He really isn't a threat and you could really use the techs for backfill if nothing else. You can leave him alone but I'd probably just finish him off in 10 turns, no sense in letting him continue to be annoying, unless you think he might be a tempting target for Monty, in which case it might be a good idea to leave him alone and let Monty go after him.
 
Hmmm, I hadn't considered WFYABTA. That certainly throws a monkey wrench into things. Then again, how am I supposed to get all those techs? Research them myself? I'm balking at that because it's now ingrained in me to NOT research techs the AI already has if it can at all be avoided. Is WFYABTA really going to be a problem with so many civs around? On the other hand, eliminating HC and the :mad: in his former cities, and getting those CR III units and GG, definitely has appeal.

fjordan, not waiting for the whipping :mad: is indeed something I began doing in this game. The time to whip was becoming optimal before all the previous unhappiness went away, so I just did it rather than waste an opportunity. The :) thanks to Charsimatic and Hatty's resources certainly helped there.

I rather like Patagonia's plan and will likely follow it unless I'm convinced otherwise.

As for Scouting, I have one Scout out and about. As many of you noticed, he swung through Aztec territory this round. He's on his way past the barb city on the southern peninsula to finish scouting that area. I will probably build another Scout and send him east while this one goes back to snoop around Aztec territory and spot the troop buildup.

Meanwhile, I think I better get busy building/whipping a lot of Spearmen. Monty will likely be coming at me with a lot of Horse Archers, if past experience with him is anything to go on.
 
I'm really loving this quick updates! :D

Yep, this is nearing warp speed here :D

Nice turnset :goodjob:
I would take both deals. Math will lead to construction and cats (as you already mentioned) - and I'm pretty sure you will need them sooner rather than later.
And the techs from HC may be cheap ones but - hey -who really cares ?
With this and math you'll be one of the most advanced civs on the planet anyway, so WFYABTA will not rise its ugly head for some time, methinks.

Aesthetics should be a good one to trade it to Hatty or maybe Zara - or both. I really, absolutely and totally suck at SE, so I won't say anything about farms or cottages at Cuzco ;)
 
I rather like Patagonia's plan and will likely follow it unless I'm convinced otherwise.


==========
Suggested plan for the next set:

2. Finish off Huayna to get your GG and some CR3 swords; raze his last city as it's garbage and nobody's Jewish so you won't get a diplo penalty.

[convince]

You WILL get a -2 diplo demerit from everyone else for razing a Holy City. No matter if the religion has spread to another city or is anyones state religion.
And these -2 will stay for the rest of the game, there's no way to compensate.

[/convince]
 
My vote would be to do both tech deals. While you're waiting for the 10 turns of forced peace with Monty to wear off, take out the barb cities and consider settling the no-mans-land city SE of New York. Then capture Monty's encroaching city on the clams/FP/wine site. And get going on the SE.

I don't see the point in finishing off HC, other than reducing unhappiness in his former cities. His free techs are pretty appealing at this stage. And you can always finish him off later.

I think Cuzco is probably a hybrid city. Not enough food for a great SE, only three hills for production, and several brown tiles. I would cottage the grassland.

I'd probably whip out culture buildings in Tiwanuku and cottage it, though I'm not sure how big it will be able to grow.
 
My vote would be to do both tech deals. While you're waiting for the 10 turns of forced peace with Monty to wear off, take out the barb cities and consider settling the no-mans-land city SE of New York. Then capture Monty's encroaching city on the clams/FP/wine site. And get going on the SE.

We are not currently at war with Monty and since it is trade there will be no required peace for either party.

Re: WFYABTA: is it likely that Hatty and possibly someone else is going to be friendly with us for a good part of the game? If so then that concern is muted somewhat.

I agree with capturing the last HC city is a good choice, not only to get rid of HC culture but also to start getting your culture in place sooner. The extra XP will also be helpful once you start marching on Monty.

If you do all the trades your next 3 technologies should be: Construction/HBR/Currency. Depending on who else has HBR it could be a good beeline for trade bait as well as the horse archers. Monty has a lot of cities so being able to cut down on possible loses by flanking the top defenders should make life a lot easier.
 
Is this pick religion? How does he have taoism? I wouldn't worry about monty's REXing. He lost 74+180 hammers on that settler, he lost some units in his little attack, and he has some tiny cities in the jungle. They'll be a lot easier to take out then those two incan cities.
 
Top Bottom