I agree that is seems like a waste to cottage Washington's floodplains but given the tight map and necessity of early war this gives you the option to be able to whip Washington down, worked cottaged floodplains during the regrowth phase and then, if necessary, work maximum food to happy cap and whip again.
ALC Game #23: America/Lincoln
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
PanzerEric
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2003
- Messages
- 58
And remember, with Charismatic, they'll be fast promos.
Okay, here's my own attempt at a dot map:
Yellow city is the one I suggested before, right on top of the copper; road it to the capital and the axerush is a go. With two immediately-farmable grasslands, fresh water, 4 hills, 2 gems, and cows, it won't be a half-bad city, frankly.
Orange city would be either another GP farm or commerce city, what with 6 flood plains and 6 grasslands (one of them riverside). It also has 4 hills for production and sugar for extra food on top of the flood plains. I'd lean toward commerce with this one, and possibly move the capital there. That's why I made it #2, so I can get a commerce city going ASAP. It seems a waste to cottage Washington's flood plains when I'll just farm over them later. It has only one unworkable desert tile, but who knows--maybe oil will appear there later.
Blue city has 3 flood plains and three food sources and I think it's another GP/whip farm that will benefit from Philosophical and drive the SE. Its surfeit of food is why I think Orange can go commerce--with two excellent food cities, orange can take advantage of its riverside tiles for cottaging.
Red doesn't have a number because it won't be needed for a while, and is sub-optimal what with all those tundra and plains tiles. It's just there to claim the spices and deer. Spices aren't available until Calendar and deer won't be needed until I start having health problems (though with 6 flood plains and no fresh water bonus, Orange will suffer from that sooner rather than later). Plus the other cities block off that part of the map, significantly reducing the risk of the AI beating me to that part of the map. We also don't know where iron or horses are yet, and I wouldn't be surprised to have one of those resources appear down here--the map generator loves placing horses and iron on tundra, I've noticed. If so, those resources appearing there may necessitate moving this city's location; fortunately, the food source (deer) is accessible from almost any position in that area, but the spices would have to wait until a later border pop if the city moved.
The only problem with all this is that the other AIs are apparently quite close, so I could get beaten to these spots; but REXing, even modestly to 4 cities, may slow down the axe rush. That's another reason I made Orange city #2, because just by making it #3, Monty might beat me to it, or at least nearby.
Sis, I like city #1 right on top of the copper. However make your next city after that HC's (former) capitol! At that point you'll have 3 cities, two of them which are capitol cites.
In other words a very early whip/chop axe rush on HC's capitol, plus sneak in a settler chop for another city west of copper city to block Monty will set you up very nicely early game.
I'm guessing a six axe sneak attack on HC will do the job. Try to scout to see if his capitol is on a hill or flatland. If flatland your in the money, if hill then add 2 axe to your original stack. If you attack early enough you might get him before his capitol expands to the third ring (although I doubt it).
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
^^ what he said ^^ 
iamnleth
Warlord
Sisiutil: I'm curious as to why you decided to settle in place as 1W seems a better GP farm location. To get the extra hammer? To avoid wasting a turn?
LightSpectra
me autem minui
1W doesn't get the third clam.
iamnleth
Warlord
Three extra floodplains more than make up for that loss.
Bandobras Took
Emperor
So you're saying that Axe Rushing them doesn't work at BTS Immortal?
No, I'm saying that I'm personally incapable of mounting any sort of effective Axe Rush at a level past Prince. That's partially because of my preferred game speed and also because I'm terribly inefficient with the whip and the chop. Therefore, someone else will have to give the "how" advice.
Hodory
Warlord
View attachment 181864
I tried out a dot map here. I basically agree with Sis that the copper tile should be settled. This place is not very rich in food, and I think it is vital to leave as many grassland tiles as possible. I thought about moving 1N of the copper as well, but you lose the cows. As levels go higher, I try to grab as many resources as possible, and even though cows might not seem like a big deal to lose, that extra +1 health could be huge. And I also noticed that Huayna is extremely close to the east. Since my experience tells me that AIs settle their cities, a lot of times in questionable spots, just to claim resources, this tells me that I should try to grab this cow. As for the fish to the east, I guess Huayna already grabbed it by now?
The 2nd city site, I think it should be found next to the river for fresh water bonus. There are way too many floodplains here, and I would want to avoid having to settle near the deer site too early just to provide health boost. The sugar and silk cannot be worked until we get plantation via calendar anyway, and that is far off. I have a feeling that there will be either fish, clams, or crab on the coast near the calendar resources to the northwest coast as well. Even without those, I think it is possible that we could even see a coastal city there that can grab both the silk and the sugar, depending on how close our other neighbors are to the north.
The 3rd city is obviously a no brainer here, and I reckon this will be the 2nd GP farm of some sort with lots of specialists here as well.
The 4th city site is only a guess without enough information, and I don't even know if we can settle here or not. Chances are Monty or others are already near that copper, so it could be claimed by the time we get to it. Strategically though, I think it will be quite handy in terms of location. If, by the time the first 2 cities are up, and the 3rd settler is out, that city site #4 is yet to be claimed, then perhaps this site could go first before city site #3?
Finally the black ? site is only for the spices and deer, and like Sis said, it can probably wait until we can afford an extra city or in the scenario where we are desperate for those resources. Of course, this can change if iron pops out on one of those tundra tiles... hmmm.
I tried out a dot map here. I basically agree with Sis that the copper tile should be settled. This place is not very rich in food, and I think it is vital to leave as many grassland tiles as possible. I thought about moving 1N of the copper as well, but you lose the cows. As levels go higher, I try to grab as many resources as possible, and even though cows might not seem like a big deal to lose, that extra +1 health could be huge. And I also noticed that Huayna is extremely close to the east. Since my experience tells me that AIs settle their cities, a lot of times in questionable spots, just to claim resources, this tells me that I should try to grab this cow. As for the fish to the east, I guess Huayna already grabbed it by now?
The 2nd city site, I think it should be found next to the river for fresh water bonus. There are way too many floodplains here, and I would want to avoid having to settle near the deer site too early just to provide health boost. The sugar and silk cannot be worked until we get plantation via calendar anyway, and that is far off. I have a feeling that there will be either fish, clams, or crab on the coast near the calendar resources to the northwest coast as well. Even without those, I think it is possible that we could even see a coastal city there that can grab both the silk and the sugar, depending on how close our other neighbors are to the north.
The 3rd city is obviously a no brainer here, and I reckon this will be the 2nd GP farm of some sort with lots of specialists here as well.
The 4th city site is only a guess without enough information, and I don't even know if we can settle here or not. Chances are Monty or others are already near that copper, so it could be claimed by the time we get to it. Strategically though, I think it will be quite handy in terms of location. If, by the time the first 2 cities are up, and the 3rd settler is out, that city site #4 is yet to be claimed, then perhaps this site could go first before city site #3?
Finally the black ? site is only for the spices and deer, and like Sis said, it can probably wait until we can afford an extra city or in the scenario where we are desperate for those resources. Of course, this can change if iron pops out on one of those tundra tiles... hmmm.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
I don't follow your reasoning here. To my mind the capital should be a commerce and hammer-rich city to take best advantage of Bureaucracy. Orange city on my dot map fits the bill; Yellow city will have the gems, yes, but that will be its only commerce; its flat tiles will need to be farmed so the hills can be worked. And cottages are better beside rivers, especially in the capital, each one contributing +1 extra
for bureaucracy to multiply. An interesting suggestion--if it turns out that I have a smaller number of cities than I'm used to, I'll definitely consider this. However, one of the key elements of the SE is using Great People to lightbulb techs, which you can in turn trade for techs you need (not to mention using Great Scientists this way to chase Liberalism). So it may depend on which GP I get.
I have certainly grown fond of settling Great Prophets; I often find that's the best use for them if you get one early on, especially if you have no holy city in need of a shrine, since the early religious techs they lightbulb are so cheap as to make using a Great Prophet to get one a waste. That changes when Theocracy is available, though. However, Lincoln seems an unlikely candidate to generate Great Prophets.
Hmmm... tempting, because its 6 flood plains (2.4
) will be a bit of an issue throughout the game. Nevertheless, I'm in a good position in terms of health. In the early game alone, assuming I grab just the cities in my dot map, I'll have +6 
, +8 with a granary. A grocer in mid-game will add three more (from the wine, sugar, and spices), and a grocer will be a high priority in a high-commerce city. And I may be able to nab those bananas in the north and the fish from Huayna's captured capital for two more , too. By moving it 1E I trade 3 hills, 1 sugar, and 1 grassland for 1 plains, 1 hill, 2 grassland and 1 unworkable peak. So I lose a Calendar resource and a lot of good production tiles for a city I anticipate making the capital with its commerce and production bonus--which will make building health modifiers like an aqueduct and a grocer much faster. And hey--sugar! So no, I like orange city where it is.
EDIT: I notice Hodory is also advocating settling for the fresh water bonus (the only way in which his dot map differs from mine), so I'd like to hear some more debate on the placement of this city before making a final decision. I'd like to get it settled in either location in the next round so the AI doesn't beat me to it.
Mainly because this is a new level for me, so in addition to everything you mention, I'm probably going to play as conservatively as possible. That meant that I was already leaning toward accepting the starting position no matter what.
I agree that trading 1 clam, 2 water tiles, and 2 grassland for 3 flood plains, 1 riverside grassland, and 1 plains would have made it an even more powerful GP farm, but it would have cost me a turn I'm not sure I can afford on this level.
In addition, I'm a little more reluctant to move inland on an archipelago map, even with low sea levels. As you can see now, 1W would have crowded any city to the west, which is what I was afraid that move would do.
Another consideration is the defensive bonus from the plains hill. It's very rare for my capital to come under direct attack, but again, this is a new difficulty level. I've been warned that barbs appear sooner and more frequently, and that wars are more common, and that the AI techs ahead of you. All of which could result in Washington coming under attack.
***
Speaking of playing conservatively--has anyone else noticed the lack, thus far, of wonder-accelerating resources? I have yet to see marble, stone, gold, or ivory. (Though I do have copper for the Colossus and Statue of Liberty.) This also may not be a bad thing. When moving up a level, I think it's a good idea to go on a bit of a "wonder moratorium". Nevertheless, we'll see; much of the map has yet to be explored, and if I manage to pull off an early rush or two, who knows what the conquered territory may contain?
slobberinbear
Ursine Skald
I agree with the fresh water placement for the FP city, 2NW of the corn. Fresh water now and levees later make this worthwhile, especially if you make this your eventual capitol for Bureaucracy purposes. I think you are underestimating the commerce boost of Bureaucracy.
In short, with Bureaucracy, you are enamored by the Hammer.
can't touch this.
In short, with Bureaucracy, you are enamored by the Hammer.
can't touch this.
I just want to add another vote for settling on the copper. Let copper city use 1 clam, the cows and the double gems and your research will get an incredible boost. If washington wasn't close this would have been a hell of a capital (cows, corn, copper, 2 gems and clam). When is the last time you ever got a capital like that 
my advice:
rush HC with axes. rebuild your force and attack monty. you don't have to actually finish off monty but try and cripple him by grabbing some land/workers etc.
as for the copper, i like 1NW of the copper because it gets both gems, the copper, a corn and a FP. the corn is shared with washinton but the capital doesn't really need that much food anyway.
rush HC with axes. rebuild your force and attack monty. you don't have to actually finish off monty but try and cripple him by grabbing some land/workers etc.
as for the copper, i like 1NW of the copper because it gets both gems, the copper, a corn and a FP. the corn is shared with washinton but the capital doesn't really need that much food anyway.
You have copper. Hyena Cupcake is industrious and your neighbor. You have all the wonder building resources you need.
BUT, it seems to me like we are going to be ending his reign pretty quickly here. This probably means that the wonders are going to be built in another place... Probably far away from Sis.
oynaz
Prince
I agree with the placement of city #2 on top of the copper. The barbs will probably start attacking cities as soon as you plunk down that city, so getting the copper online immidiately will probably be a good idea.
Additionally, Washington's two food tiles can be borrowed, if Washington is for some reason unable to work them...
Additionally, Washington's two food tiles can be borrowed, if Washington is for some reason unable to work them...
Elkad
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 1,057
Orange city.
2 hills and 1 sugar
vs
1 plains, 1 grassland, 1 peak, 2 health, 9 hammers (w/levee - if I counted right).
And build warriors to at least partially fogbust S. The AIs should be fogbusting everywhere else pretty well, but a couple warriors on hills will cover most of the peninsula.
2 hills and 1 sugar
vs
1 plains, 1 grassland, 1 peak, 2 health, 9 hammers (w/levee - if I counted right).
And build warriors to at least partially fogbust S. The AIs should be fogbusting everywhere else pretty well, but a couple warriors on hills will cover most of the peninsula.
I would also agree with settling on the copper. It's not really a high yield tile so you don't give up much, and the ability to start building axes immediately will be a great advantage here.
I would prefer to settle the city to the NW along the river. The real attraction to settling off the river is that it brings the sugar into the fat cross (as well as some other workable tiles). But that will only hold if none of the AIs settle to the W. In the last game both Medina and Damascus lost resource tiles to neighboring cities' culture. I've had the same happen to me many times since the AI seems to like settling right along another civs borders to try to "steal" resources.
If no AI settles in that region then leaving the sugar for another city that would also claim the silk is probably better anyway since there may not be any other food in that area.
On a positive note I checked the glance screen and it appears that this collection of AIs seem predisposed to hating each other. Huayna and Hattie are already deeply into the annoyed level because of their different religions. If you can keep your power up relatively well the AIs will probably leave you alone long enough to play your way out of the hole that you start in on Immortal.
Finally I checked the AI espionage ratios and it definitely seems that there is at least one more AI left to meet on this landmass. Hammurabi has only 20 total EPs toward the other 4 civs that we know he knows. So unless he got incredibly unlucky with his scouts dying and only met everyone in the last 5 turns that suggests he's been putting his EPs toward some other leader(s).
I would prefer to settle the city to the NW along the river. The real attraction to settling off the river is that it brings the sugar into the fat cross (as well as some other workable tiles). But that will only hold if none of the AIs settle to the W. In the last game both Medina and Damascus lost resource tiles to neighboring cities' culture. I've had the same happen to me many times since the AI seems to like settling right along another civs borders to try to "steal" resources.
If no AI settles in that region then leaving the sugar for another city that would also claim the silk is probably better anyway since there may not be any other food in that area.
On a positive note I checked the glance screen and it appears that this collection of AIs seem predisposed to hating each other. Huayna and Hattie are already deeply into the annoyed level because of their different religions. If you can keep your power up relatively well the AIs will probably leave you alone long enough to play your way out of the hole that you start in on Immortal.
Finally I checked the AI espionage ratios and it definitely seems that there is at least one more AI left to meet on this landmass. Hammurabi has only 20 total EPs toward the other 4 civs that we know he knows. So unless he got incredibly unlucky with his scouts dying and only met everyone in the last 5 turns that suggests he's been putting his EPs toward some other leader(s).
Lord Chambers
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2001
- Messages
- 1,004
Here's my dotmap, I think You need to scout NW more, to see how close Monty is. You might need to "compete" to some of those calendar resources.
There was some nice dotmaps allready, but lets see now:
1. Is pretty obvious as it claims copper and gems.
2. Might not be a grand city, but it can work few specialists and blocks the peninsula from Monty while You can raise hell on Hyana.
3. This makes a decent city, and you can settle it even 1S if You can afford losing fresh water bonus and one fp.
4. Basically a land fill, to claim deer and spices. Might be nice with Moai statues.
Oh, first post!
Hi all!
There was some nice dotmaps allready, but lets see now:
1. Is pretty obvious as it claims copper and gems.
2. Might not be a grand city, but it can work few specialists and blocks the peninsula from Monty while You can raise hell on Hyana.
3. This makes a decent city, and you can settle it even 1S if You can afford losing fresh water bonus and one fp.
4. Basically a land fill, to claim deer and spices. Might be nice with Moai statues.
Oh, first post!
Hi all!Similar threads
