SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

Your research estimate assumed that our base science rate wouldn't significantly increase from where it is now. I think that it will rise significantly from the merchants you mentioned, switching off the mines in the capital for commerce tiles, the cottages maturing and bureacracy! So even with my mistake I think 30-5 turns is reasonable as you suggest already...

Yes it will rise from the merchants, maturity and tile use changes. The gain from Bureaucracy was already factored into your 35-turn academy valuation of 1500:science:. There's also some cost to running Bureaucracy, which we're ignoring.
 
Since astronomy doesn't get any prerequisite bonuses, then double bulbing it gives us 3120 research. So each great scientist there is worth 1560 unmodified science (there is no 1.2 prerequisite modifier on astronomy as mabraham indicated)

It is slightly more efficient to double bulb astronomy than it is to bulb something else with a prerequisite. 1800*2 / 1.2 = 3000 (plus we could build an observatory in Washington at least earlier too)

tech costs
PPr 2496 (1.2 modifier)
astro 3120 (no modifier)
Sci Method 3744(1.2 modifier)
physics 6240 (1.2 mod)
electricity 7020 (1.2 mod)
lib 2184 - 330 already done (1.2 mod)
Mass Media 5616 (1.2 mod)

so 26970 / 1.2 + 3120 = 25595 research required
so yes 26.5k is enough

I'm updating the gpp spreadsheet in the mean time.

OK so we have T145 GEng and GSci for an academy, and then 7 more GScientists over T151-T178. Plus one from Physics. Subsequent turn estimates are approximate, and depend when we get Bureaucracy.

There are 8 bulbs total, but life is messy. We don't want to get SciMeth too fast because that will slow down GPfarm by two specialists too soon (GLib dies), and crush our AP monasteries. So probably we put natural beakers on it. If it's convenient, we'd like to double-bulb Astro.

Double-bulb Astro plan
T147 Oxford+academy, start PPr
T153 finish PPr, get Bur, go back to dribbling on Lib (hmm not running 100%, probably)
T157 2 bulbs on Astro, start 100% on SciMeth
T165 done SciMeth
T166 3 bulbs on Physics, finish this turn or next... now things get messy... there's not enough room on Lib and Elec to allow for:
T182 last GSci arrives for 3 bulbs on Elec
T191 MM

Late bulb plan
T147 Oxford+academy, start PPr
T153 finish PPr, get Bur, start 100% Astro
T160 done Astro, start 100% on SciMeth
T168 done SciMeth
T168 3 bulbs on Physics
T170 finish Physics... still not enough room on Lib and Elec to allow for:
T181 last GSci arrives for 3 bulbs on Elec
... and there's two spare bulbs we can't use!
T190 MM

The fundamental problems are
  • that we can only put 6 efficient bulbs on Physics and Elec, and earlier bulbs mean we run out of things to tech naturally (and 7 on Phys+Elec doesn't help either),
  • that bulbing earlier than Physics accelerates killing GLib with SciMeth, which slows the GP generation, and
  • that we can't start MM until we've done our bulbing.
So if the last GSci comes out T181 or so, MM will be about T190. So those 35 turn estimates look a bit generous. Thus the academy is definitely correct. There may be a window of time around T170 when we have to look around at what the AI are doing and temporise on Nat or Gunpowder while waiting for our last GScientist.

It might be best to abandon the second GSci from Gems T175 (in favour of a bigger army :hammer:) and the last from GPfarm T178 (in favour of Globe Theatre for an infinite draft farm). Now we only bulb 6 times and that makes for more breathing room:

Late and few bulb plan - 100% slider throughout
T147 Oxford+academy, start PPr
T153 finish PPr, get Bur, start Astro
T160 done Astro, start SciMeth
T168 done SciMeth - but we have all our GSci already!
T168 3 bulbs on Physics
T170 finish Physics... start Elec
T171 3 bulbs on Elec
T173 done Elec
T176 done Lib for Radio
T185 done MM

This means we have a window after about T170 when it will make sense to have our GAge to switch out of Rep+Caste+Paci into Police+Slavery+Theo and at the end of the GAge into perhaps US+Nat+Caste+Theo if we no longer need to research. We kick off the war around T170 when we have airships (or earlier if we have managed to get a safe holy war started).

We don't have to commit to the few-bulb plan until about T157 when Gems has to start running scientists or not.
 
Grand Strategy:

The obvious goal for our Grand Strategy is to kill The Wizard of Oz, whom or whatever that may be, and win the game ASAP thereafter with any Victory Condition, except Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory.

We have been targeting The United Nations Diplomatic Victory which based on our current development is by far our best chance for medal contention (it even looks promising for a gold laurels win).

We still need to find The Wizard of Oz. He may be hiding in one of the remaining large unrevealed areas of the map (see attached image files).

I propose sending units to investigate each area as much as possible before we can complete Physics and build Airships to more thoroughly investigate each area.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I propose sending units to investigate each area as much as possible before we can complete Physics and build Airships to more thoroughly investigate each area.

I propose we don't worry too much about it, but do what we can. I estimate Airships will be available from around T170. Units that are already near these areas may as well do what they can, but there is little point in spending any significant resources when airships will come a short time later, and there is no possibility of winning a UN vote before after T190 - and we'll probably need some time for wars and diplo mod tweaking.... So I don't think we want any chariots with Sentry, or such, because they won't learn much fast enough.

Spoiler :


If we infiltrate the north, we will see enough tiles to see if there can be non-mountain tiles in the middle.

Spoiler :


We already know there are no mountain tiles in the middle. Look at the peaks on the gridlines.

Spoiler :


We could arrange to see a few more edge mountains, but I don't think we'll be able to prove or disprove until airships.

Spoiler :


Building culture for a border pop would help here, but I don't think we can get the lot without a boat or airship

Spoiler :


There's a spy heading in.

Spoiler :


Same. The caravel building in CB will help there.

Also there is the barb city to Monty's SW, which could have the wizard. Our workboat should head for it planning to find things out with Astro.

I hope you've seen the preliminary work I did with screenshots in posts 2575-2578. :)
 
Wow! I'd say we have reached the fork in the game where we have maximum choices to make.

I vote against expending any more effort on finding the Wizard other than sending our workboat to the bottom-left of the map. Our massive bulbing campaign will net us Airships when we reach Physics. They can base out of any North, West, and South Witch city so long as we keep open borders with them. This will certainly find the Wizard for us. A Galleon strike team should be able to reach any point on the map in 25 turns max.
 
Detailed Strategy:

Detailed Strategy must concern itself with Logistical Capabilities (for those entities in the game that require it, mainly Units). It mainly concerns itself with efficient producing and efficient consuming of Food, Hammers, Commerce, Research, Wealth, Espionage, Units, Great Person points, Great General points, Buildings and Wonders, and others I may have omitted. Some of these things can be only produced and consumed locally within a single City, with some exceptions (a lot of the exceptions concern Corporations).

Research:

Our primary research goal is Mass Media which allows us to build The United Nations which allows us to place the Diplomatic Victory Resolution of the UN ballot.

To acquire Mass Media, we must first acquire, via various means, the following technology path (at a minimum):

Astronomy (3120B) -> (Liberalism - 1t) (330/2184B) -> Printing Press (2496B) -> Scientific Method (3744B) -> Physics (6240B) -> Electricity (7020B) -> Radio (9360B) -> Mass Media (5616B)

The long term plan is to bulb at least Physics and Electricity, use Liberalism to acquire "free" Radio. Currently a Great Scientist will bulb exactly 1500 + 3 x 80 = 1740B, since our Civ-Wide Population is 80. This means that using two GSs to bulb Astronomy would waste 360B. Bulbing Astronomy would also require acquiring Printing Press first. Scientific Method could be bulbed by two Great Scientists with a small amount left over to research. Using three GSs to bulb Physics would waste 480B. Electricity could be bulbed by three Great Scientists with a small amount left over to research.

Assuming we can generate the Great Scientists fast enough, I would suggest no Academy (its too late to get enough research from it this late in a TUN game) and use:

1) one Great Scientist to bulb just almost 3/4 of Printing Press
2) one Great Scientist to bulb just over half of Astronomy
3) two Great Scientists to bulb nearly all of Scientific Method
4) two Great Scientists to bulb just over 2/3 of Physics
5) three Great Scientists to bulb nearly all of Electricity

That's nine GS - one for Physics = eight GS. I don't believe GPFarm can generate that many on its own. Not counting GS generated in other cities, GPFarm can generate the next five GSs in t146, t151, t157, t163, and t170. At that point GP cost increases by 200 to 1200 and GSs would be generated on t179, t190, and t203. These are the turns that I estimated mentally, and due to that the final GS may actually be generated on t200, except that I did adjust for the loss of The Great Library. A test game could more accurately determine the turns when Great Scientists are generated.

I fully expect that we will be able to generate only five Great Scientists before we are ready to complete Radio via Liberalism. It would make sense to use three of them each to bulb Physics and Electricity (third GS from 1st to Physics).

Alternatively, I like bulbing nearly 3/4 of Printing Press with the first Great Scientist to make the benefits of Printing Press available sooner and use two GSs on Physics.

We only still have a Great Artist which could be used for a Golden Age (8t)?

City builds:

Cities will continue building what is in their build queue, except those building Wealth could build Galleys which will convert in the queue to Galleons after Astronomy. Originally suggested by bcool.

Any city without a Courthouse will build one sooner rather than later, even the Capital. In my opinion, they should have been built as soon as possible after Code of Laws in all cities, starting with the ones furthest from the Capital. They reduce city maintenance -50% regardless of any slider setting.

Markets will be considered in high commerce cities and those cities we expect will support a significant number (3 or more) of Merchants.

Washington will complete Oxford University in 3t. After that it will focus on growing its population.

City Growth:

All cities will focus on growth, until they reach happiness cap or can support their tasks most efficiently.

Exploring Units:

<I will incorporate recent posts about exploration later. What follows did not consider it.>

Our goal shall be having at most 5 units out of border for exploration, so we incur no support costs for exceeding this limit.

The Work Boat will be moved to reveal more of the unrevealed NW area from a shore/near ocean viewpoint.

The Chariot will explore the NE part of the SW unrevealed area.

The southern Axeman will move west to explore the SE and S part of the SW unrevealed area.

The War Elephant shall move SE along the coast and then explore the big unrevealed area in the SE corner of the map.

<Other sections of this post will be filled in later in the next few hours. Please comment on what you have already seen.>

Sun Tzu Wu
 
comments in blue.

Detailed Strategy:

Detailed Strategy must concern itself with Logistical Capabilities (for those entities in the game that require it, mainly Units). It mainly concerns itself with efficient producing and efficient consuming of Food, Hammers, Commerce, Research, Wealth, Espionage, Units, Great Person points, Great General points, Buildings and Wonders, and others I may have omitted. Some of these things can be only produced and consumed locally within a single City, with some exceptions (a lot of the exceptions concern Corporations).

Research:

Our primary research goal is Mass Media which allows us to build The United Nations which allows us to place the Diplomatic Victory Resolution of the UN ballot.

To acquire Mass Media, we must first acquire, via various means, the following technology path (at a minimum):

Astronomy (3120B) -> (Liberalism - 1t) (330/2184B) -> Printing Press (2496B) -> Scientific Method (3744B) -> Physics (6240B) -> Electricity (7020B) -> Radio (9360B) -> Mass Media (5616B)

The long term plan is to bulb at least Physics and Electricity, use Liberalism to acquire "free" Radio. Currently a Great Scientist will bulb exactly 1500 + 3 x 80 = 1740B, since our Civ-Wide Population is 80. This means that using two GSs to bulb Astronomy would waste 360B. Bulbing Astronomy would also require acquiring Printing Press first. Scientific Method could be bulbed by two Great Scientists with a small amount left over to research. Using three GSs to bulb Physics would waste 480B. Electricity could be bulbed by three Great Scientists with a small amount left over to research.

I like mabraham's latest suggestion to use 1 GS for an academy, 3 GS for physics and 3 GS for electricity. I believe you made a miscalculation when you suggested that 3 GS would waste some bulbs on Physics. Each GS in 15-20 turns from now would produce approximately ~1800B so 3 would give us 5400B which is less than Physics (6240).
Using 6 GS lets us use Gems and GPFarm to stop running max specialists and to build other useful things for us. Boats, Airships, maybe the globe theater (but I think it is a waste in a diplo game since we really only are drafting units to kill one AI team not the whole world).

I estimated that an academy will give us approximately 1500B (after modifiers research) If we plan to finish our research in ~35 turns. It is close enough to the value of a bulb that I think it is worth investing in the academy. The academy is more flexible than a bulb and will help tech useful things after Mass Media (like Nationalism, Chemistry & Biology if the AI doesn't tech them for us).


Assuming we can generate the Great Scientists fast enough, I would suggest no Academy (its too late to get enough research from it this late in a TUN game) and use:

1) one Great Scientist to bulb just almost 3/4 of Printing Press
2) one Great Scientist to bulb just over half of Astronomy
3) two Great Scientists to bulb nearly all of Scientific Method
4) two Great Scientists to bulb just over 2/3 of Physics
5) three Great Scientists to bulb nearly all of Electricity
I like mabraham's plan to bulb physics and electricity because it also help keep the Great Library and our monasteries working for us as long as possible. If we accelerate the tech to Scientific Method with bulbs we are losing those advantages earlier than we really need to.

That's nine GS - one for Physics = eight GS. I don't believe GPFarm can generate that many on its own. Not counting GS generated in other cities, GPFarm can generate the next five GSs in t146, t151, t157, t163, and t170. At that point GP cost increases by 200 to 1200 and GSs would be generated on t179, t190, and t203. These are the turns that I estimated mentally, and due to that the final GS may actually be generated on t200, except that I did adjust for the loss of The Great Library. A test game could more accurately determine the turns when Great Scientists are generated.
Please look at my gpp spreadsheet where I detailed exactly where and how the great people can be generated. We can realistically get 6 great scientists +1 free one from physics by T167. So 1 for the academy, 3 for physics, 3 for electricity. If we want to we can get another one from GPFarm T177.
See the file attached to this post http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11039337&postcount=2598



I fully expect that we will be able to generate only five Great Scientists before we are ready to complete Radio via Liberalism. It would make sense to use three of them each to bulb Physics and Electricity (third GS from 1st to Physics).
I believe you are wrong because I estimated this already using the spreadsheet.

Alternatively, I like bulbing nearly 3/4 of Printing Press with the first Great Scientist to make the benefits of Printing Press available sooner and use two GSs on Physics.

We only still have a Great Artist which could be used for a Golden Age (8t)?

City builds:

Cities will continue building what is in their build queue, except those building Wealth could build Galleys which will convert in the queue to Galleons after Astronomy. Originally suggested by bcool.

Any city without a Courthouse will build one sooner rather than later, even the Capital. In my opinion, they should have been built as soon as possible after Code of Laws in all cities, starting with the ones furthest from the Capital. They reduce city maintenance -50% regardless of any slider setting.

Markets will be considered in high commerce cities and those cities we expect will support a significant number (3 or more) of Merchants.

Washington will complete Oxford University in 3t. After that it will focus on growing its population.

City Growth:

All cities will focus on growth, until they reach happiness cap or can support their tasks most efficiently.

Exploring Units:

<I will incorporate recent posts about exploration later. What follows did not consider it.>

Our goal shall be having at most 5 units out of border for exploration, so we incur no support costs for exceeding this limit.

The Work Boat will be moved to reveal more of the unrevealed NW area from a shore/near ocean viewpoint.

The Chariot will explore the NE part of the SW unrevealed area.

The southern Axeman will move west to explore the SE and S part of the SW unrevealed area.

The War Elephant shall move SE along the coast and then explore the big unrevealed area in the SE corner of the map.

<Other sections of this post will be filled in later in the next few hours. Please comment on what you have already seen.>

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I am in favor of converting Ghenghis the North Witch to Taoism. He is already at +6 relations with us, and conversion will bump him up to friendly. His partner Elizabeth is also at +6 right now, and will also become friendly if converted to Taoism. That would hurt our espionage, but we could also simply trade for monopoly techs with them.

We should be careful converting the south witches cities to Taoism. If we start a holy war and drag them in with us, then the North and West Witches will like them also. As it is, the West Witches like the South more than us and would vote for them in UN election :( I'm thinking a Holy war with us, the North, and the West might be most ideal.

Also, our diplo with the West doesn't seem to be going so well.
Are we on the right track with wooing the West?
 
I propose we don't worry too much about it, but do what we can. I estimate Airships will be available from around T170. Units that are already near these areas may as well do what they can, but there is little point in spending any significant resources when airships will come a short time later, and there is no possibility of winning a UN vote before after T190 - and we'll probably need some time for wars and diplo mod tweaking.... So I don't think we want any chariots with Sentry, or such, because they won't learn much fast enough.

Finding The Wizard and destroying him is essential. The more intelligence or possibilities we can eliminate, the better the chance that we can destroy The Wizard prior to the earliest Diplomatic win we can muster. Otherwise, we have to delay the Diplomatic Victory resolution. That would not be efficient play.

Same. The caravel building in CB will help there.

Yes, I plan to use the Caravel to explore waterways of interest.

Also there is the barb city to Monty's SW, which could have the wizard. Our workboat should head for it planning to find things out with Astro.

What is Astro? Isn't Optics sufficient for a Work Boat to cross oceans?

I hope you've seen the preliminary work I did with screenshots in posts 2575-2578. :)

I just looked and failed to see how it helps. I did notice some comments about the wizard; However, they make no sense without explanation

Wow! I'd say we have reached the fork in the game where we have maximum choices to make.

I vote against expending any more effort on finding the Wizard other than sending our workboat to the bottom-left of the map. Our massive bulbing campaign will net us Airships when we reach Physics. They can base out of any North, West, and South Witch city so long as we keep open borders with them. This will certainly find the Wizard for us. A Galleon strike team should be able to reach any point on the map in 25 turns max.

Finding and destroying The Wizard is just as important as obtaining a Victory Condition. We may discover that the nature of The Wizard makes a Diplomatic Victory impossible. We may need to pursue a Space Colony Victory instead. The sooner we know that, the better off we are.

Remember, we aren't playing a normal Diplomatic Victory. The Wizard is still out there and we need to find him. We don't even know that Airships can detect his presence.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
City build suggestions
Wahington
Oxford (once finished max the commerce)
Taoist monastery (maybe a hammer tile or two to finish this a turn earlier)
slow build a missionary maximizing the commerce and growth

Stone
Finishes Temple (steals the cottage it shares with Washington, so Washington can get a different cottage growing)
then builds wealth
runs a spy and merchant if it grows 3 more.

perhaps this city should be devoted to building missionaries so we can convert Genghis completely. If it can't build a missionary due to the 3 number limit then it can finish the temple perhaps.

Gems (maximizes food so that it can get a great scientist for us see spreadsheet for how many scientists to run and when).
finishes missionary
then builds another missionary slowly
gives up is other grass mine to Sheep City, doesn't run its Pmine

GPFarm (maximizes food and specialists)
very slowly builds a courthouse, the gpp it generates is far more valuable then building the courthouse in a reasonable timeframe. In fact it could probably give up on the courthouse and slow build a galley for us instead

Silver (maximizes food so that it can produce a great scientist for us) see spreadsheet for details on how many scientists to run and when)

Isengard
Temple (might want to interrupt to build a horse archer or chariot to escort a missionary or two down to the south witches) perhaps we don't want to convert the south.
Elephants
Then Trebs if we get the necessary tech
(or possibly galleons if we somehow get astronomy before we steal engineering)

CB
caravel, then max food slow building a galley. Grows until it can run a spy and 3 merchants and the seafood

Marble, max food while slow building a galley, grows until it can run max merchants and a spy without excess food

Phants, builds courthouse with ivory and mines as it grows, then max food, then merchants and a spy.

Sheep City can take gems other Grass hill mine and build a courthouse, If finishes it, then merchants and a spy after it grows a bit more perhaps.

Fur City max food until it size 8, then works seafood, sheep, lakes, and 3 merchants and a spy.
then slow builds a galley for us.

Cimmerian...
courthouse?? --I know I suggested it, but If we are going to likely lose this city then maybe it makes sense to build a wall and a castle. Then we can 2 longbows in the castle and dramatically slow down Ragnar in the war we anticipate is coming.
if finishes the wall and castle (obviously if and when we get engineering for the castle build)
then slow builds a galley for us.
 
Finding The Wizard and destroying him is essential. The more intelligence or possibilities we can eliminate, the better the chance that we can destroy The Wizard prior to the earliest Diplomatic win we can muster. Otherwise, we have to delay the Diplomatic Victory resolution. That would not be efficient play.

Sure... we've known this for the last hundred turns.

Yes, I plan to use the Caravel to explore waterways of interest.

What is Astro? Isn't Optics sufficient for a Work Boat to cross oceans?

Optics unlocks Caravels. They have the ability to cross oceans. Nothing else can until Astronomy.

I just looked and failed to see how it helps. I did notice some comments about the wizard; However, they make no sense without explanation.

I am anxious to avoid you treating this turn set as an abstract optimization problem. That takes time that we do not have available. Unfortunately, you've duplicated a lot of work with screenshots and tech+bulbing plans that others have already discussed. bc has been publishing a spreadsheet with GScientist timing estimates for several weeks. I compared three different tech plans just today. bc and I have already had a discussion containing what we consider to be sound numbers that an academy is fine for the time span out to MM, and will be better still if we need more tech. By all means contribute your own ideas, but please consider whether they have a chance of bettering what others in the team have already suggested.

Finding and destroying The Wizard is just as important as obtaining a Victory Condition. We may discover that the nature of The Wizard makes a Diplomatic Victory impossible. We may need to pursue a Space Colony Victory instead. The sooner we know that, the better off we are.

Remember, we aren't playing a normal Diplomatic Victory. The Wizard is still out there and we need to find him. We don't even know that Airships can detect his presence.

Sun Tzu Wu

We know this. We've been scouting as effectively as possible for the last 100 turns. We're continuing to do so. :)
 
I am in favor of converting Ghenghis the North Witch to Taoism. He is already at +6 relations with us, and conversion will bump him up to friendly. His partner Elizabeth is also at +6 right now, and will also become friendly if converted to Taoism. That would hurt our espionage, but we could also simply trade for monopoly techs with them.

We should be careful converting the south witches cities to Taoism. If we start a holy war and drag them in with us, then the North and West Witches will like them also. As it is, the West Witches like the South more than us and would vote for them in UN election :( I'm thinking a Holy war with us, the North, and the West might be most ideal.

Also, our diplo with the West doesn't seem to be going so well.
Are we on the right track with wooing the West?

I agree, we could use stone city to produce more missionaries for the purpose of fully converting genghis. Perhaps abandoning the Taoist temple. This is different than what I just recommended.

Good point about the south, maybe we shouldn't convert them.

A holy war with the east and the south perhaps is in order.

A possibility to at least consider...

arrange it so the eastern witches are our rival in the UN vote and get all 3 other teams to vote for us...
 
Any city without a Courthouse will build one sooner rather than later, even the Capital. In my opinion, they should have been built as soon as possible after Code of Laws in all cities, starting with the ones furthest from the Capital. They reduce city maintenance -50% regardless of any slider setting.

I do not think this is consistent with our Strategic Goal of fast Diplo. Once we complete our tech, we do not care how much our empire costs. It might be necessary to do a lot more tech, or it might not. We don't know. Our MM tech will complete by T185 per my latest estimate, and we need no more. In that case each 120 hammer courthouse will save at best 35 turns of about 4 gold/turn, and earn 2 EPs/turn. That's not a good return. If we learn we will need massive tech, then we should reconsider.

Markets will be considered in high commerce cities and those cities we expect will support a significant number (3 or more) of Merchants.

We have one in Washington. My T185 plan expects us to run at 100% slider until T185. After that we hope we don't care about our economy. Our cities running merchants have negligible production, and building a 150 hammer market from (say) two Gmines will take too long to pay off compared with the gold and beakers those people could have produced as merchants. So I do not think a market is correct anywhere.

Washington will complete Oxford University in 3t. After that it will focus on growing its population.

It should focus on working cottages, then growth. If we need big tech, we have to have a massive pile of towns here.

City Growth:

All cities will focus on growth, until they reach happiness cap or can support their tasks most efficiently.

Exploring Units:

<I will incorporate recent posts about exploration later. What follows did not consider it.>

Our goal shall be having at most 5 units out of border for exploration, so we incur no support costs for exceeding this limit.

We have money to spend for getting useful things done. If they're doing something useful, don't bring them home. Scouting is cheap at any price.

The Work Boat will be moved to reveal more of the unrevealed NW area from a shore/near ocean viewpoint.

No, per discussion he should head to investigate the barb city near Monte as soon as we get Astro.

The Chariot will explore the NE part of the SW unrevealed area.

The southern Axeman will move west to explore the SE and S part of the SW unrevealed area.

The War Elephant shall move SE along the coast and then explore the big unrevealed area in the SE corner of the map.

This cannot be done without open borders. We have a spy and a caravel to head into this region, but I expect airships will finish the job.
 
comments in blue.

I don't like the way you add comments in color interspersed between someone else's quote without using the quoting mechanism of the forum.

It makes it hard to quote what you write.

I like mabraham's latest suggestion to use 1 GS for an academy, 3 GS for physics and 3 GS for electricity. I believe you made a miscalculation when you suggested that 3 GS would waste some bulbs on Physics. Each GS in 15-20 turns from now would produce approximately ~1800B so 3 would give us 5400B which is less than Physics (6240).
Using 6 GS lets us use Gems and GPFarm to stop running max specialists and to build other useful things for us. Boats, Airships, maybe the globe theater (but I think it is a waste in a diplo game since we really only are drafting units to kill one AI team not the whole world).

I estimated that an academy will give us approximately 1500B (after modifiers research) If we plan to finish our research in ~35 turns. It is close enough to the value of a bulb that I think it is worth investing in the academy. The academy is more flexible than a bulb and will help tech useful things after Mass Media (like Nationalism, Chemistry & Biology if the AI doesn't tech them for us).

You are right, I didn't compute the three GS bulb for Physics correctly; it does come close to 5400B which is about 7/8 of Physics. Bulbing three GS on Physics results in no wasted beakers.

Are you sure we can turn off research in ~35t? I believe it can be done in ~30t. Consider the turns that can be saved right now on nearly 3/4 bulb of Printing Press. Too bad we don't have more Villages and Towns that could benefit from the +1C for Villages and additional +1 for Towns.

Absolutely, no Academy. It is too late; I don't understand how you can justify it when it loses 300B by your own calculations when it matters. We can't generate enough Great Scientists to perform all the bulbs that would be possible; we certainly can't afford to expend them on academies, not even one in the Capital.

I like mabraham's plan to bulb physics and electricity because it also help keep the Great Library and our monasteries working for us as long as possible. If we accelerate the tech to Scientific Method with bulbs we are losing those advantages earlier than we really need to.

I agree, but it can hurt us to try too hard to avoid completing Scientific Method just to keep a few TAP monasteries and The Great Library going a few more turns. In my opinion, it is more likely to hinder our research progress than help, if taken too far.

Please look at my gpp spreadsheet where I detailed exactly where and how the great people can be generated. We can realistically get 6 great scientists +1 free one from physics by T167. So 1 for the academy, 3 for physics, 3 for electricity. If we want to we can get another one from GPFarm T177.
See the file attached to this post http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...postcount=2598

It doesn't appear that you took into account a Golden Age which would increase GPP generation by an additional +100% for 8t. We still have the Music Great Artist; when do we use him for a GA? I asked this question in recent post as well.

I believe you are wrong because I estimated this already using the spreadsheet.

Yes, I stated in my post that I probably over estimated the turns and I also only tracked GPFarm and I believe I noted that other cities might add a few GSs of their own.

You are getting into the micromanagement phase of this turn set, before the bigger issues are resolved. I'd prefer to concentrate on the higher level (strategic part) of the turn set development process right now.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I am anxious to avoid you treating this turn set as an abstract optimization problem. That takes time that we do not have available. Unfortunately, you've duplicated a lot of work with screenshots and tech+bulbing plans that others have already discussed. bc has been publishing a spreadsheet with GScientist timing estimates for several weeks. I compared three different tech plans just today. bc and I have already had a discussion containing what we consider to be sound numbers that an academy is fine for the time span out to MM, and will be better still if we need more tech. By all means contribute your own ideas, but please consider whether they have a chance of bettering what others in the team have already suggested.

I'm just trying to put forth a preliminary PPP, without excessive details. I'm not duplicating any detailed analysis. That comes in about 24 hours from now. I will gratefully accept such analyses, but please do not expect me to put it immediately in the the preliminary PPP which I consider to be not much more than a framework for the PPP to be developed later.

The screen shots I took were of t144. The ones you referred to were made on an earlier turn. I'm not going to compare your screenshots to see whether they match the current state of the game; that doesn't save me any work.

You and bcool are possibly wrong about the Academy; it loses 300B in the time frame that matters based on bcool's own calculations, but still you want me to agree that is ok. Sorry, I consider no academy an improvement on what you and bcool have agreed is ok. So what do we get in exchange for the 300B? By bulbing the Great Scientist rather than constructing an Academy we might be able to complete Mass Media 1t earlier and rush The United Nations 1t earlier and win 1t earlier, or maybe 300B isn't enough to save 1t of research; it's hard be sure without a test game, but with an expected Research rate of maybe 600 Bpt, 300B saved won't necessarily save a turn of research.

I don't post things just to have something say. They either have educational value (helping others learn to be better players) or it has a direct bearing on the game. Please be accepting of both, because that is what SGOTM is all about. It isn't just about winning laurels.

Please stop criticizing what people fail to mention in their posts when it is something that could be considered to be already understood by context. For example, I said I wanted to grow Washington after it completed Oxford University. You said it should work its cottages. I considered that understood which would be clarified in the final PPP. I meant move citizens from hammer plots to plots with more food which can include grassland cottages.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Concerns:

This hasn't gone too well, so far. I've spent far too much time responding to concerns about what I haven't included in the Preliminary PPP and concerns about duplication of effort than actually getting the preliminary PPP done.

Unfortunately, I have spent the last three hours responding to concerns about the PPP rather than actually addressing those concerns in the by modifying it appropriately.

We all want this turn set, like all the others, to be a success and be completed in 3-4 days, so anything you can do to help me would be appreciated.

Plan for PPP development:

I will try to gather all the input from the thread to fill out the PPP. By the end of Saturday, I expect that it will be close to passing muster as a solid PPP though there may be some minor tweaks to be done and some some remaining points of contention. By Sunday afternoon (server time zone), I plan to have a final PPP we can all agree to and I can proceed with playing the turn set and complete yet Sunday evening.

Please do not feel offended, if I didn't include your hard work into my PPP. If you have posted something important to include in to the PPP that I missed, please point me to where it is so I can incorporate it.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
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