The AI CHEATS! (Admitted to by Sid) lol

I really don't think it's quite fair to simplify "people generally have perception biases that mean they will often misinterpret statistical odds" down to "people are stupid."
I absolutely agree with you. It felt awkward writing about "stupid gamers" or "smart gamers" for exactly that reason, I'm perfectly aware that it's a pretty far stretch from an (in)ability to understand odds to a general (and potentially derisive) statement about someone's intelligence. And I'm probably hurting my own argument by using these simplified terms because I'm sure I'll come across a bit elitist this way, which is neither intended nor (imho) true. The problem is, I couldn't find a better wording which didn't lead to overly complicated sentences ("gamers who don't understand odds" is a rather unwieldy term). And "statistically handicapped gamers" sounded just silly. I'd be happy if you know a better wording.

I'm pretty sure that the majority of people have a grasp of what 50% odds mean, 75% odds mean, etc., but that doesn't stop them from feeling frustrated when they lose 4 75% chance battles in a row.
Sid Meier very clearly disagrees though. Imho he really ridiculed these gamers in his speech. He depicted them as people who not only don't understand that they ought to lose some of the battles with 3:1 odds, but even as people who cannot understand this concept if it's told to them. Because (in his words) they think that 3 is such a biiig number, and 1 such a small one.

Your argument that even players who do have a grasp on odds may feel unnecessarily frustrated when losing a battle they expected to win, is definitely worth discussion, but it's also very different from the theses that Meier put forward.
 
Your argument that even players who do have a grasp on odds may feel unnecessarily frustrated when losing a battle they expected to win, is definitely worth discussion, but it's also very different from the theses that Meier put forward.

Yeah, I get that he said it too, but I don't think the forumgoers need to adopt a line of thinking just because El Hombre said it. :lol:

Also, grats on 2.5k posts!
 
The issue is that El Hombre is ... El Hombre ;) Obviously his opinion in any subject will be listened and most of the times respected inside Firaxis ... and if El Hombre says the players are so stupid they can't understand odds even if you sit down and explain them, most likely the coders will act on that assumption while making the game :/ ... and so everyone that buys the game gets a "I'm stupid" card with the game ;)
 
Heh, how appropriate that the proud Portuguese forum-member (who quotes El Hombre himself, no less) would respond to that. Seems like the humor wasn't lost on you, either. ;)
 
Heh, how appropriate that the proud Portuguese forum-member (who quotes El Hombre himself, no less) would respond to that. Seems like the humor wasn't lost on you, either. ;)

How do you say El Hombre in portuguese?
 
The issue is that El Hombre is ... El Hombre ;) Obviously his opinion in any subject will be listened and most of the times respected inside Firaxis ... and if El Hombre says the players are so stupid they can't understand odds even if you sit down and explain them, most likely the coders will act on that assumption while making the game :/ ... and so everyone that buys the game gets a "I'm stupid" card with the game ;)
Yep, that's what made me worry too. And there's also the fact that, for a long time, El Hombre's name stood for a different approach which regarded players as intelligent beings.

The trend to see players as dumb entities that need to be pampered to the extreme, isn't new. I first noticed it about 4 years ago when the RPG Oblivion was released with a "quest compass" that (almost) always showed the player where he had to go. Solving the quests in the game basically came down to "follow the green arrow", no thinking required. (Interestingly, Oblivion was published by 2K as well, but I doubt that the trend is limited to only one publisher). Other games picked up on that trend, which made (and keep smaking) games less enjoyable for me. Civ4 and its expansions definitely did not follow that trend, so Sid Meier and Firaxis have actually been a bit of a beacon of hope for me. Now I learn that Sid Meier has succumbed to the trend too, and that he sees his previous approach as a failure. That's pretty disheartening.
 
Heh, how appropriate that the proud Portuguese forum-member (who quotes El Hombre himself, no less) would respond to that. Seems like the humor wasn't lost on you, either. ;)
Not my favourite quote of him ;) but the one that makes more sense for foreigns without a good knowledge of his backround. My favourite is the one where he says that he inherited from his father the title of the King of the roads of Portugal, given how much land his father took from the crown assets to give to the biggest noble families ;)
How do you say El Hombre in portuguese?
O Homem. Don't force me to put IPA , please ;)
Yep, that's what made me worry too. And there's also the fact that, for a long time, El Hombre's name stood for a different approach which regarded players as intelligent beings.

The trend to see players as dumb entities that need to be pampered to the extreme, isn't new. I first noticed it about 4 years ago when the RPG Oblivion was released with a "quest compass" that (almost) always showed the player where he had to go. Solving the quests in the game basically came down to "follow the green arrow", no thinking required. (Interestingly, Oblivion was published by 2K as well, but I doubt that the trend is limited to only one publisher). Other games picked up on that trend, which made (and keep smaking) games less enjoyable for me. Civ4 and its expansions definitely did not follow that trend, so Sid Meier and Firaxis have actually been a bit of a beacon of hope for me. Now I learn that Sid Meier has succumbed to the trend too, and that he sees his previous approach as a failure. That's pretty disheartening.
That has been my point since the beginning. I can understand that some players have the issues Sid describes ... I have seen enough of "me wants a tank that kills all the muskets in the world" or " I lost a 60% chance battle. The AI cheats!!!" ( both real examples ) around here ( and probably in average forum gamers are a little more equipped to deal with this kind of thing than the average buyer of the game ) and I can understand that he doesn't want those people going away. The issue is that not all the people that plays the game acts like that , and IMHO, Sid took the decision of shunning all the rest of the players to pamper a certain and very specific portion of the game players at the same that pretends that all gamers are like that. Not good ,especially on a type of game that has in his selling points the fact that actually we have to use extensively the neocortex ;)
 
...And my point was that under new combat system we have completely different approach, in which we no longer have unit lives and wins vs unit lose and dies outcome, and this puts warfare in a completely different perspective. What the exact algorythm will be we'll know only after the release (bear in mind that the thing about odds and 3:1 was said about CivRev, not Civ5).

So knowing that we have completely new environment of which we know nothing really it seems rude to me going all "Sid cheats! Sid lies to us!", based only on mixed experiences of CivRev and Civ4. That was my ignition point, and if people are good enough to ask others to stop calling players stupid, I'd be grateful if we would stop calling Sid a liar or assuming he thinks about us as little kids.


...He was 100% correct on saying that gamers are paranoid:
"So Sid said that in CivRev odds are tweaked in human favour? Oooh and now in Civ5 percentage odds are gone? The bastard, now we'll never be sure of what's going on, maths and statistics no longer matter, the universe is collapsing, aaaaaaah!" :p
...I still remember that in one of the Civ5 previews somewhere I saw this Diplomacy screen in which your leader was fighting another leader in a 2D Street Fighter game style, with "Fight" sign etc. In my smallness I assumed that Civ5 will suck and omg whatishappeningwiththeworldwelivein. Only much later I've realized that it was all CivRev :goodjob:

:rolleyes:
In one week after release we'll have combat algorythm dissected, explained, and THEN we can decide about calling creator of our favourite game title of all times a liar, ok?
And if it really is the case that when odds are >90%=autowin (which I'm sure won't happen) that we'll mod it out and job done.


All I see is that Sid is making his games as flexible and easy-to-approach as possible, and in my mind it's pure genius that whole family can play the same game and thoroughly enjoy it - a toddler son playing on Chieftain and watching the explosions, my wife building three cities up and wandering around the map with few units to explore on Noble and myself cracking up that Immortal to get that fuzzy feeling of accomplishment.

In all my life I got disappointed by every name in the gaming industry. Except Sid Meier. So I'm trusting he'll blow my mind again without fail.
 
Look, I don't care if percentage odds are shown or not ( I bought Civ IV before they were added, and I could live without them or with a label system instead of the crude odds ... something like "Decisive victory expected. Unless something unusual happens , this is on the bag", maybe weaved with a story-telling hover with a efabulation on why did your high odds unit lost ), I just care about the possibility of a assured win/loss, a thing that, IMHO does not add anything to the game and the fact battle results are untampered ( feel free to difer ). True, we don't know that, but I assume there is enough on Sid speech to be worried about that , especially the part you quote above ;)

Be careful about the "we can mod it out " argument. First, the combat mechanics will surely be on the SDK area , that is still being thought if it will be released ,so you obviously can't mod that as easily as that before the SDK comes out without reverse engineering of the dll files, a very dubious thing in terms of legality :p Second, as combat mechanics are a core feature of the game, messing with them is a almost assured unbalancing event, even if you only change little things. Third, you would also need to teach the AI about that, and again the AI code is on the SDK ;) It is more close in work intensive concerns to making a game from scratch than of a simple hand wave :p

I've seen your "family" argument applied to civ II, III, IV and SMAC, so excuse me if I don't consider it relevant ;) And obviously that only applies to countries that have their native language supported ( that BTW is not my case :D ). And Sid already disapointed me twice atleast, by his obsession on giving naval UU to the Portuguese at the same time he designs games where land is power and sea is only there to not be land everywhere ... so again I don't share your enthusiasm and faith, atleast in the same degree.
 
...And my point was that under new combat system we have completely different approach, in which we no longer have unit lives and wins vs unit lose and dies outcome, and this puts warfare in a completely different perspective. What the exact algorythm will be we'll know only after the release (bear in mind that the thing about odds and 3:1 was said about CivRev, not Civ5).
I agree with you that there's little reliable info on Civ5's combat algorithm. As I said, I was criticizing the general approach that Meier advocated in his speech. Whether or not this approach was used in the design of Civ5 isn't known yet. I think it's not unreasonable to be a bit worried (Meier is the boss of Firaxis, so if he really thinks that gamers should be seen as dumb, then there's a good chance that this will permeate into his games somehow), but I also think it's not unreasonable to put trust in Firaxis and the Civ5 dev team (they have proven that they are able to provide complex and challenging games, and Meier wasn't part of Civ5's day-to-day design decisions anyway). Time will tell.

So knowing that we have completely new environment of which we know nothing really it seems rude to me going all "Sid cheats! Sid lies to us!", based only on mixed experiences of CivRev and Civ4. That was my ignition point, and if people are good enough to ask others to stop calling players stupid, I'd be grateful if we would stop calling Sid a liar or assuming he thinks about us as little kids.
Well, I'm not calling Sid a liar or cheater, that would be an unwarranted personal attack imho. I always held him in very high regard, because he was one of the first designers who managed to successfully make games that were hugely complex for their time, and yet immensely replayable. That appreciation hasn't changed, and won't change. I also think that his design influence on some following games that carry his name, but were developed by Reynolds, Johnson, or Shafer, is probably overestimated, but that doesn't change my appreciation for the groundwork that Meier laid. And I think that he's a very likeable guy who, despite being one of the most successful game designers of the world, somehow managed to remain the natural, somewhat shy, and slightly geekish (in a positive sense) person he always was.

However, being a nice guy with an impressive track record, and a hero of my youth that I still hold in high regard, doesn't remove the possibility that he's on a seriously wrong track sometimes. He'll be the first to acknowledge this, just hear him talking about the Dinosaur game. ;) The approach he advocated in his speech is such a wrong track imho, and that's what I'm trying to bring across.
 
@R_rolo1
Last part of your post made me understand your concerns - with the Carrack and all that ;) But hey, at least you've got your civilization represented in CIV, whereas Polish people can now forget about Poland being a part of official release (what with Warsaw being a city-state).

I just simply don't think that Sid can "damage" the game for us. If anything, he'll create it more interesting to explore. And the whole irrelevant as you kindly have put it part about family play is to show that from one difficulty level to another you re-discover the game anew, digging deeper into the mechanics and using it to your advantage, which is always fun, regardless whether you're hardcore or a "statistically handicapped" player.

If you got burned on Civ franchise (even it is something as easily moddable as UU of an existing civilization) then I guess you can be concerned. I'm not however, after initial burst of disappointment with Civ5 (no religion, no stacking, art deco graphics etc etc) I'm a full-blown fanboi now :lol: Everything I can find about the game makes me a happy bunny. CivRev had completely different target audience to Civ series, so mechanics used there won't hold for oncoming Civ5 imo


EDIT to Psyringe's post

Well, I'm sure that Sid won't treat his faithful CivFanatics as dumb because dumb players do not play CIV games for years, spending months on forums (be it Apolyton or CivFanatics), playing GOTM's Democracy games etc. Lead designer for Civ5 comes from such place, and Firaxis is fully aware of their target audience.
Heh, I've never heard about that Dinosaur game before his speech, that was a funny one.
 
"It's not from the fanboys, but of the critics, that game designers learn the lessons on making good games" :D ( I hope Herodutus is not spinning on his grave right now :p ).

I'm just trying to make the game better ;) My gripe about the Portuguese and the obsession about naval UU for them is simply a example I got about on my experience in dwelling inside civ III and IV and the impression that a lot of stuff is not exactly carefully pondered in Firaxis while they are in the game design time ( better not talk about the sometimes very ... creative ;) code they use ): if you do a game where land is power , giving a naval UU is actually handicapping that civ compared with the others ( better not talk of a aerial civ III UU that was both late and virtually useless :D ) ... this in general. The carrack is even worse because pre Astro intercontinental naval invasions are useless in 95% of the times in Civ IV, simply because you can't use the resources of out there to your mainland and vice versa. So a civ gets a 33% str boost in their land UU and other a boat that allow attack and conquer cities you can't possibily profit at the time ....

Getting back to topic, I simply feel that a change in that direction will bring not much to the game compared with the potential damage. And because I actually like the game, I have the duty of not being a fanboy and actually say that IMHO they are wrong ;)
 
The only thing that Sid agrees is that some very vocal people don't like tanks being beaten by spears ( or similar ) and that things will probably get quieter if we remove that possibility ( that is very theoretical already in civ IV, btw ... in fact the only time I actually seen a spear beating a tank it involved a barbarian tank in a level with free barb wins for the human ). I can live with that, but :
That's not quite right. Sid was responding to play testers reactions, not the vocality of community members. And the playtesters started complaining not with spear vs tank odds, but much closer strength numbers, namely 3:1/4:1 and higher. Also, I suspect the initial revision of the combat system was simplified from civ IV, resulting in increased variability, similarly to how civ 3 has more tank vs spear problems then civ 2.

1) I don't see exactly how that can be acheived with what is being proposed, as i already pointed, since it does not remove the biggest gripe around this, that is be visual effect of a spear beating a tank ... just drop enough spears first :D
What are you responding to here?

2) I really don't see how this add a iota to the game value either in realism ( in here it even takes out ), gameplay in general , or to honest , in anything at all. And all the arguments I've heard so far trying to contradict me in this point boil in pretending that a thing that is certain and a thing with high/low enough odds are the same thing ( but then you would have to define what is high/low enough ... for some persons it would be in the 90% area, but I've seen people arguing with seriousnesss that any battle above 50% should be a assured win ) and/or some very vague and dubious stuff regarding how this will add to the flexibility of plans or something like that... that is stuff we can't prove or disprove without seeing how the rest of the game interacts with this feature ... in other words, ATM meaningless as argument.
It's 4:1 ratios according to Sid where the cut off should be. That's 80%, back in the old system.

It's about immersion. Not realism, not general gameplay, but player expectations. Players and people in general do not have an intuitive grasp of normal odds.

3) You are accusing me of putting too much emphasis on small diference, but think, in the 1:7 CivRev system, 1:6,99 is fundamentally diferent of 1:7 while 1:7 and 1:700 are equal for all proposes. IMHO there is no minimal justifcation for putting a brick wall in combat behaviour like that and infact, the features that behaved like that in Civ IV are bitterly loudmouthed even today ( like the military deterrence factor ... ). said in other words, why does a 1 str unit has a admitedly small chance of winning the fight with a 6,99 str unit , but no chance of winning vs a 7.00 str unit? With all the defects a behaviour like civ IV might have, it has no jump of faith limit like that... The only reason I make diference between 0% and 0,001% is because they are diferent : one is a certain the other is a chance ( admitedly low ). Can you justify any ratio of strenght as limit like that? Using your own words liberally, you attach too much value to little diferences between strength ratios.
It's a digital system, there has to be a cut off at some point. But the difference between certainty and near certainty is artificial. In my field, when a magnitude is less than e^-5, then I can treat it as 0. And in general, the word is probabilistic, so there are non zero chances of strange things happening. For instance you could theoretically pass though a wall (if no one's watching ;)), but the odds are tiny.

In my mind certainty isn't a binary condition anyway. But that's a discussion for another thread.

I had more to say, but it looks I made another wall of text. Not that walls of text are a bad thing it self, but I agree they can hurt the eyes :p
In my book walls of text are bad, and brevity is a virtue. ;)

But this post is probably a case of do as I say, not as I do.




Overall you seem to be repeating yourself, so I'll restate my points so you can attack them directly. The point divisions are somewhat arbitrary and poorly organized, but this does contain what I feel are all the major points:
1) Players and people in general do not have a good intuition about odds. But it's better for odds to behave how people expect, then how mathematics dictates.
2) The reason that surprising the player in this way is bad is because it makes the player step back and evaluate what happened. It's possible that a surprise feature has a net gain, but there's no real gain in this case.
3) In the case of spearmen vs tank the conclusion is that they were screwed by the RNG. That's a gameplay issue, and it's persieved in the moment as unrealistic. It's therefore a break of the suspension of disbelief. It is not a traditional realism issue.
4) If you're trying to sell a spear men beating a tank, then you gotta show in detail how it happens. Maybe a big pop up with a picture of a lone spartan standing in a narrow gate, and an explanation of how amazingly well the spear-men fought.
5) The other reason that loosing with high strength differences sucks, is because it messes up plans. Being able to loose with high strength differences means that the outcome of combat is more variable; the distribution of possible damage is wider. This makes plans more likely to fail. It also makes plans more likely to go better then average, but the possible satisfaction of plans going better than normal does not possible disappointment of plans failing. This point applies to plans of both the stronger and the weaker side.
6) It's not a big change. The combat algorithm is mainly just less variable. And the computer is more readily willing to round near-zero numbers to zero. And combat is more in line with expectations in general. But that's it.
 
Don't worry R_rolo1, even the fanboi in me won't leave me blind to obvious errors in design when the game will come out - there's thin line between love and hate ;)

But for now, without playing at least demo and based on previews I honestly think that Civ5 will dwarf previous installments. Heh, in Civ5 even Carrack would probably prove useful, what with revamping of naval combat and all :goodjob:

EDIT
Wow, just read Souron's post, very nicely put, well done!
I'll just add to your #4:
That's why I have no problem when in Civ5 a dozen Spearmen units will eventually kill a lone Armour. That's a story in itself, and make the death of that monster believable. But for one Spearmen unit to eradicate an Armour? No way, the AI is out to get me :D
 
That's not quite right. Sid was responding to play testers reactions, not the vocality of community members. And the playtesters started complaining not with spear vs tank odds, but much closer strength numbers, namely 3:1/4:1 and higher. Also, I suspect the initial revision of the combat system was simplified from civ IV, resulting in increased variability, similarly to how civ 3 has more tank vs spear problems then civ 2.
Note that I said "very vocal group" ;) There is no more vocal group, atleast in terms of influencing a game in the build, than playtesters :p You might be obviously right regarding on the where this came for, but we are discussing the solution they got ( or atleast the one we think they got )
What are you responding to here?
To the fact you think that what you sugest will remove the :spear: . People complain they lost a 80% fight , surely, but the spear is not that, is it the visual spectacle of a spear beating a tank ( or pike beats gunships or something like that ) , that btw normally ( but not always ) is linked to losing at high odds of win. Like I pointed to others, if people complain of the odds, this might ease their pain, but if they complain about the :spear: in itself, as this does not remove the possibility of a high tech unit being beaten by a low tech unit. I know you have not made that argument directly, but it is clearly hidden lurking in the sahdows of the reasoning you're using
It's 4:1 ratios according to Sid where the cut off should be. That's 80%, back in the old system.

It's about immersion. Not realism, not general gameplay, but player expectations. Players and people in general do not have an intuitive grasp of normal odds.
True, but it depends on how much it breaks the immersion vs the erosive effect in the fun you got by the feeling you are playing a babysitted FPS instead of a strategy game. Psyringe made a far more detailed point than me, so i direct you there.
It's a digital system, there has to be a cut off at some point. But the difference between certainty and near certainty is artificial. In my field, when a magnitude is less than e^-5, then I can treat it as 0. And in general, the word is probabilistic, so there are non zero chances of strange things happening. For instance you could theoretically pass though a wall (if no one's watching ;)), but the odds are tiny.

In my mind certainty isn't a binary condition anyway. But that's a discussion for another thread.
True, it has to be cut somewhere. The point is where ;) You might not know, but civ IV also has battles with 100% odds ( atleast in the e^-5 margin of error ), but that implies conditions that nearly never happen ingame. No one complains about that. The cut on situations that actually happen in decent ammounts in game is a completely diferent issue. OFC we don't know enough of the combat mechanics of Civ V to say how much 4:1 battles we will acually have, but they will surely be more likely than "Full health Combat VI Drill IV shock modern armor fights 0,01 str warrior" in Civ IV
In my book walls of text are bad, and brevity is a virtue. ;)

But this post is probably a case of do as I say, not as I do.
Sure, brevity is a virtue, but IMHO coherence and clarity are bigger ones.



Overall you seem to be repeating yourself, so I'll restate my points so you can attack them directly. The point divisions are somewhat arbitrary and poorly organized, but this does contain what I feel are all the major points:
1) Players and people in general do not have a good intuition about odds. But it's better for odds to behave how people expect, then how mathematics dictates.
2) The reason that surprising the player in this way is bad is because it makes the player step back and evaluate what happened. It's possible that a surprise feature has a net gain, but there's no real gain in this case.
3) In the case of spearmen vs tank the conclusion is that they were screwed by the RNG. That's a gameplay issue, and it's persieved in the moment as unrealistic. It's therefore a break of the suspension of disbelief. It is not a traditional realism issue.
4) If you're trying to sell a spear men beating a tank, then you gotta show in detail how it happens. Maybe a big pop up with a picture of a lone spartan standing in a narrow gate, and an explanation of how amazingly well the spear-men fought.
5) The other reason that loosing with high strength differences sucks, is because it messes up plans. Being able to loose with high strength differences means that the outcome of combat is more variable; the distribution of possible damage is wider. This makes plans more likely to fail. It also makes plans more likely to go better then average, but the possible satisfaction of plans going better than normal does not possible disappointment of plans failing. This point applies to plans of both the stronger and the weaker side.
6) It's not a big change. The combat algorithm is mainly just less variable. And the computer is more readily willing to round near-zero numbers to zero. And combat is more in line with expectations in general. But that's it.
Well, if I'm presented with the same arguments, I have to deliver the same counterarguments , no? If i didn't I would be accused of incoherence and of being jumping points because I didn't wanted to acept a loss ....

Just for fun, I actually sugested your point 4) in this page :p Just check some posts above. But let's cut straight to the point:

Yours points are correct. I never disputed them ( well, besides the very dubious reasoning that plans should always work in strategy games, the core of your 5) ). The only thing we are actually discussing is how important is to cater the player sometimes wrong expectations vs delivering a fair fight that is both fair and a fight, since that aparently it is not possible to deliver both at the same time in the fullest degree ( Sid's opinion ). You seem to put in high regard not breaking some players expectations in terms of odds, no matter how wrong they might be and that obviously tilts your opinion there. I prefer to consider that there are also a good groop of players that would have a rage attack if they perceived the system as tampered or simply that some fights aren't actually fights, in spite that reducing the spear shock is a nice goal in it self. And we will probably never agree in adjusting our perceptions to a point somewhere in the middle on this :p
 
A strength ratio of 2:1 meant much stronger odds than 2:1 in Civ4. Perhaps that could be the reason for CivRev players getting frustrated at the lower effect of strength.
 
A strength ratio of 2:1 meant much stronger odds than 2:1 in Civ4. Perhaps that could be the reason for CivRev players getting frustrated at the lower effect of strength.

Civ rev wasn't especially transparent on this. It just said: "Your strength:Their strength" with "ADVANTAGE!" if one side had a significant advantage (1.5:1 or more IIRC). It was this that lead to all sorts of BS combat situations, where catapults lost to warriors %10 of the time.
 
That's not quite right. Sid was responding to play testers reactions, not the vocality of community members.
He was continually talking about players, not testers.

1) Players and people in general do not have a good intuition about odds. But it's better for odds to behave how people expect, then how mathematics dictates.
I disagree, because:

a) This argument ignores the bad side-effects on people who can deal with odds (they will choose suboptimal decisions because their expectations will be different from those of the target group towards which the game was geared).

b ) This argument does not take alternative solutions into account, for which these negative side-effects don't occur. Alternatives brought forward in this thread already are "Better information / helping the player to understand odds" and "designing the combat system in a way that the intuition matches better with the mathematics"

c) This argument reinforces a wrong understanding of odds, in one of the few games that actually has a reputation of teaching something useful once in a while. (As my spouse just put it after reading this discussion: "If I cross the street quickly now, I have an 80% chance of not being run over by that bus. Yay, I'm totally safe! *run*"). Okay, that's a slightly ideological argument, so feel free to ignore it - it might explain why for some people it feels extremely awkward to rig a mathematically sound system in order to meet false intuitions though.

2) The reason that surprising the player in this way is bad is because it makes the player step back and evaluate what happened. It's possible that a surprise feature has a net gain, but there's no real gain in this case.
The net gain is that the player re-evaluates his intuition and concludes that an 80% chance of surviving isn't as safe as he thought it to be. (That's actually exactly what I did after a few games of Civ4. I did have an understandings of odds before, but my intuition still made me attack with 3:1 odds when I shouldn't have. So I re-evaluated my intuition and as a result became not only better at playing Civ, it's also actually helped me in other situations too.)

If you don't see "understanding and learning how the game works" as a worthwhile net gain, then you could basically throw the progression of difficulty levels (that Sid also talks about in his speech) out of the window, because it uses the same process: Your powerful axeman slices through the AI's units. You see a chariot attacking and killing your axeman despite having a lower base strength. You are surprised. You step back and re-evaluate the situation. You learn that the chariot has an innate bonus which makes it a dangerous counter against axemen. You improve your strategy and start to look out for chariots when you march axemen against an enemy.

I'll skip points 3 and 4 because I think the whole spearman-vs-tank paradigms hinders discussion rather than helping it. Sid didn't mention it in his speech either. And the problem of high odds vs low odds is by no means limited to that paradigm either. I see little use in combining a general discussion about odds and intuition with an already incredibly loaded year-old discussion that represents only one special case of the topic in question.

5) The other reason that loosing with high strength differences sucks, is because it messes up plans. Being able to loose with high strength differences means that the outcome of combat is more variable; the distribution of possible damage is wider. This makes plans more likely to fail. It also makes plans more likely to go better then average, but the possible satisfaction of plans going better than normal does not possible disappointment of plans failing. This point applies to plans of both the stronger and the weaker side.
I think that this is a rather one-sided perspective. You can apply this argument in exactly the same way to any random element of any game that involves planning, so in effect you're advocating the removal of random elements in favor of more reliable planning.

This argument ignores that many players enjoy random elements, ask for them when they are not present, and/or even regard the ability to make plans which can handle unforeseen or improbable events as superior to make plans in a purely deterministic environment.

6) It's not a big change. The combat algorithm is mainly just less variable. And the computer is more readily willing to round near-zero numbers to zero. And combat is more in line with expectations in general. But that's it.

I agree that, seen for itself, it's a small change. I disagree that this is the only perspective under which it should be seen though. I think you're ignoring several implications of that change 8and the other advocated by Meier) which actually are big changes. Three examples:

a) It changes the way the game is played. If 4:1 odds and above constitute a safe victory, then this does influence my decision of whether or not to attack a lot. This may be a desired change though, and even if it isn't, it can be balanced out by other changes in the combat system (letting defeated units survive may have such a balancing function). The change may not be bad, but it is a noticeable consequence that arises directly out of the change that you label as "not big".

b ) So far, in the Civ series the game could always be trusted with regard to the combat calculations. In early versions of Civ, the match was simple enough to do it in your head. In Civ4, your chance of victory was displayed accurately (this accuracy of the calculation for Drill effects can be argued, but the problem there is that the effect doesn't lead itself well to a representation as a single percentage number, not that the game didn't want to give you an accurate number). With the system that Meier advocated, the numbers can't be trusted anymore. In effect, Meier is breaking the "Unholy Alliance" (the term that he explains later in his speech) between designer and player by rigging a display of values that the players so far could rely on as being truthful. This is a rather big change in concept, and it casts a shadow on the reliability of other displayed values in the game.

c) If this change is the result of a new conviction that players are unable of grasping mathematical concepts, and incapable of learning (and that's unfortunately exactly how Meier presents it), then there is a definite danger that this conviction will have other undesirable results as well.


In short, I think you've fallen for the same fallacy as Sid. You correctly determine the way one group of players perceives and plays the game. But instead of thinking about the other groups of players too, and trying to find solutions which work well for more than one group, you're limiting your discussion to only this single group. This is certainly easier to handle (in game design as well as in a discussion), but the groups of players who don't fit to the personality you're gearing your arguments and your game design to, won't be happy with that. That's why I said that (in game design) focusing solely on players who are unable to grasp mathematical concepts at the cost of players who can, will lead to unsatisfied customers looking for other products on the long run.
 
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And this is why I think that your arguments Psyringe, though well made are pointless because you're mixing CivRev and Civ4 together while being concerned about Civ5.

c) This argument reinforces a wrong understanding of odds, in one of the few games that actually has a reputation of teaching something useful once in a while. (As my spouse just put it after reading this discussion: "If I cross the street quickly now, I have an 80% chance of not being run over by that bus. Yay, I'm totally safe! *run*"). Okay, that's a slightly ideological argument, so feel free to ignore it - it might explain why for some people it feels extremely awkward to rig a mathematically sound system in order to meet false intuitions though.
There's no "rigging" of the holy mathematics here. Directly above your post bjbrains said that even in that "rigged" CivRev you didn't have "you have 80% or more to win, so you win". You had "advantage" sign and that's it. So even in CivRev case it wasn't like you saw "you have 85% chance to win", after which the game was giving you an automatic win. You knew you had an advantage and that you'll win. Different combat mechanics.

I see no reason to use such pejorative terms like "rigged" or "system lies to us", because this is not the case at all imo.

b ) So far, in the Civ series the game could always be trusted with regard to the combat calculations. In early versions of Civ, the match was simple enough to do it in your head. In Civ4, your chance of victory was displayed accurately (this accuracy of the calculation for Drill effects can be argued, but the problem there is that the effect doesn't lead itself well to a representation as a single percentage number, not that the game didn't want to give you an accurate number). With the system that Meier advocated, the numbers can't be trusted anymore. In effect, Meier is breaking the "Unholy Alliance" (the term that he explains later in his speech) between designer and player by rigging a display of values that the players so far could rely on as being truthful. This is a rather big change in concept, and it casts a shadow on the reliability of other displayed values in the game.
You seem to come from the persperctive that devious Sid who wants more moneys caters to casual players looking for win and if the odds are high it equals autowin.
You can't be further from the truth, because when you'll take under the account new combat mechanics in Civ5 then any type of encounter can create interesting and varied results, and Total Victory can still damage your unit, same as Total Defeat can still damage your opponent. And attacking with several weak units can defeat a stronger unit.

So stop talking about percentages, this is not how it's going to work in Civ5.
 
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So stop talking about percentages, this is not how it's going to work in Civ5.

Unfortunately, there will be % in Civ 5, The combat model does have randomized results.

Now there may be a much more limited impact of the randomized results, but they are still there
 
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