Piety is now Ancient - still very weak.

Sure yes, that's the general strategy. And it's the only one. Grab the opener, build a shrine, wait til you have more cities, take the second one. When you've got a religion, fill out the rest. Taking Piety #2 as the second or so policy isn't worth it, the 1 additional :c5faith: does not hold up against the policies from Liberty and Honour. So while it is a worthwile strategy, there isn't much variation here.

If you want to make early shrines viable, wasn't there a way that doesn't involve social policies. Because now they couldn't make those other piety policies "early-game" strong.

And yes, there is some variation on how you are going to take the tree, but it all relates to the outside, namely when you'll take those liberty policies in comparison to the two piety ones.

Again, I think that's kinda the point - Piety being available in the Ancient era is only of any real use for its opener. The rest can wait until after Tradition/Liberty or even Honour. I think you're hung up on comparing the entirety of Piety to the entirety of Trad/Lib/Hon when really it's only the opener (and maybe the +1 faith from shrines etc) that's competing at that level. Every other Piety pick, even though it's available in the Ancient Era doesn't look like it's designed to be selected at that point. If you approach it with that mindset then, obviously, it doesn't make much sense because, as you've said, most of the policies after the initial 2 don't apply to the early game to the same extent that Trad/Lib/Honour do.
 
Honor did get a few buffs:
  • Unlocks the Statue of Zeus
  • Finishing it allows buying Great Generals with Faith
  • Warrior Code, on top of the current bonus also gives this: Great Generals are earned 25% faster.
  • Professional Army, on top of the current bonus also gives: construct Barracks, Armories, and Military Academies 50% faster

Admittedly, none of that is huge. But they do make Honor more competitive and it also helps that some changes in the game make the Honor policies look better now and some of the Tradition policies look slightly less good.

I didn't knew about these changes, thank you!

Still, it is extremely lacking and a no-choice for the vast majority of players. I think that the opener in particular is lacking that first impulse punch that Tradition or Piety has, not to mention that it is only useful at the very early game, thus hampering its adoption. Still, glad to see that it has been (marginally) improved.
 
Again, I think that's kinda the point - Piety being available in the Ancient era is only of any real use for its opener. The rest can wait until after Tradition/Liberty or even Honour. I think you're hung up on comparing the entirety of Piety to the entirety of Trad/Lib/Hon when really it's only the opener (and maybe the +1 faith from shrines etc) that's competing at that level. Every other Piety pick, even though it's available in the Ancient Era doesn't look like it's designed to be selected at that point. If you approach it with that mindset then, obviously, it doesn't make much sense because, as you've said, most of the policies after the initial 2 don't apply to the early game to the same extent that Trad/Lib/Honour do.

Sure, if that's their intention. Doesn't make it bad design. If they want to make early religion more viable, create a mysticism tech or make the shrine not requiring any tech. Just for one in my opinion quite boring (as it's bland) policy to bring one tree forward and thus make the other policies weaker, seems a bit counterproductive. But that's not my main objection. I can live with that.

My main problem and that one is true for all the policy trees is that they make you take stuff you don't want. Essentially it means reducing your options by quite a big degree.

And you just know the AI will gun straight for these policies that are useless for them in the early ages thus crippling themselves...

EDIT: @Ikael I'd say Honor is still very strong, you just need to be actively barb hunting to get the optimum out of it. And then there's the extra happiness which is now quite sparce elsewhere. But of course the 50 % more experience for units is so overpowered (as it snowballs) for HUMAN (!) conquerors...
 
Honor did get a few buffs:
  • Unlocks the Statue of Zeus
  • Finishing it allows buying Great Generals with Faith
  • Warrior Code, on top of the current bonus also gives this: Great Generals are earned 25% faster.
  • Professional Army, on top of the current bonus also gives: construct Barracks, Armories, and Military Academies 50% faster

Admittedly, none of that is huge. But they do make Honor more competitive and it also helps that some changes in the game make the Honor policies look better now and some of the Tradition policies look slightly less good.

Really sad that Honor wasn't buffed better, particularly the early unlocks.
Piety is definitely better, though i don't see it being overly needed.
 
I almost always go Tradition in the early game and never spent much effort on Religion (even though I usually do get one). With this change, I think it's going to be an interesting decision. I have always favored using Faith points for yourself (buying units and great persons, not wasting them on missionaries and the like) and now with the chance to buy late game units and buildings (which is awesome), I'm going to have to think putting even more into Faith building. We must never sacrifice Science but there are going to be times where you have to make a hard choice. That's a great thing.
 
Honor isn't that bad. The policies are strong but it doesn't give anywhere near the same kind of early economic boost that trad/lib give, to the point where even if your goal is being aggressive as early as possible then trad/lib are still stronger because such a stronger economy equals more and better units without crippling yourself.

Also, to me the 2nd (+1 faith) policy in piety is even more important than the opener because:

1. It multiplies with the opener giving x4 effectiveness shrines per early early hammer.
2. It raises your "faith cap" per city early, which is probably a big deal because if your faith situation was actually good you wouldn't need piety nearly as much.

A 20 hammer shrine in each of your first 2 cities giving 4 faith/turn? That... that actually competes with the first ~2 policies of trad/lib. That's really nice. The question is what to do after that, seeing as the rest of piety isn't that good early. There are a lot of options to evaluate.
 
I almost always go Tradition in the early game and never spent much effort on Religion (even though I usually do get one). With this change, I think it's going to be an interesting decision. I have always favored using Faith points for yourself (buying units and great persons, not wasting them on missionaries and the like) and now with the chance to buy late game units and buildings (which is awesome), I'm going to have to think putting even more into Faith building. We must never sacrifice Science but there are going to be times where you have to make a hard choice. That's a great thing.

I frankly I don't know about that reformation belief. The piety tree also allow you to get any kind of great persons with faith and you need more than before because now there are three cultural great persons which you'd need even as a warmonger if you don't want to get heavy happiness issues.

The fact is that you can get units through money and through regular buildings, great persons however can't be acquired so easily. Faith is the only way you can buy them, but they cost a lot of faith.

Do you really want to waste precious faith in units and buildings that you can buy with money?
 
I frankly I don't know about that reformation belief. The piety tree also allow you to get any kind of great persons with faith and you need more than before because now there are three cultural great persons which you'd need even as a warmonger if you don't want to get heavy happiness issues.

The fact is that you can get units through money and through regular buildings, great persons however can't be acquired so easily. Faith is the only way you can buy them, but they cost a lot of faith.

Do you really want to waste precious faith in units and buildings that you can buy with money?

I think part of it depends upon timing. Holy Warriors can come at a really needy time. While gold may or may not be an issue in the later game to buy units with, I am strongly thinking that gold for City-States will be a priority. I generally bet heavily on City-States - for all victories and now I will them even more for the delegates. That leaves faith to take up the slack. Using faith for Great Persons is always a good idea but it goes back to timing and choice to make.
 
"Buying Tanks, Artillery, and Public Schools with faith is weak? "

Yes. Because you can also buy GS or GP from the faith. And you dont have faith for more that 5 tanks or 5 public school in a game.

"Goddess of the Hunt+Fertility Rites"
Very situational - also, the full tradition tree provide more food.

The faith threshold for GP grows exponentially higher with every bought GP. The faith threshold for units only increases by era and will likely depend on the cost in faith, information that we at the moment do not have. Regardless of this, there will come a point wherein buying GP with faith becomes inefficient, and if you are in any position whatsoever to use Jesuit Education or Religious Fervor, you will likely have a steady faith supply, enough at least to act as an extra city in terms of unit production. I've had games wherein the faith production was enough that even in the Modern era, I could afford a Lancer every other turn. We also have to consider the difficulty of actually finishing SP trees now. They take longer to finish, unless of course you aim for a complete culture game.

As for Goddess of the Hunt and Fertility Rites, I also added Sword into Plowshares/Feed the World as possible sources of food and growth, especially for Byzantium, showing that a well-founded Religion can be better than Tradition. This is not to claim that Religion will constantly be better than Tradition in food bonuses; the SP was designed for horizontal growth. It was to show that, given the right circumstances, that Religion can overpower Tradition, and that Religion is powerful because it is flexible. Religion supplements everything, and can be any bonus you wish it to be. That is its strength. It also comes into play earlier than Tradition's bonus, and is another factor to include. +2 food on turn 75 is good, but +2 food on turn 50 is better.

Good question (is it 2 pantheons or 1 pantheon & 1 bonus)

I'm also wondering if it works with a Pantheon. ie if a pantheon is the second most common 'religion' will it still get its effect?

(That would make religious tolerance useful if you hadn't fouded a religion yet, and someone else's was invading your cities)

IIRC, Byzantium gets a Bonus Belief, and not necessarily another Pantheon. I think they would simply restrict Religious Tolerance to Byzantium's Pantheon and not their Bonus Belief, even if what is chosen is technically a Pantheon.

I frankly I don't know about that reformation belief. The piety tree also allow you to get any kind of great persons with faith and you need more than before because now there are three cultural great persons which you'd need even as a warmonger if you don't want to get heavy happiness issues.

The fact is that you can get units through money and through regular buildings, great persons however can't be acquired so easily. Faith is the only way you can buy them, but they cost a lot of faith.

Do you really want to waste precious faith in units and buildings that you can buy with money?

Depends, really. Buying GP with Faith comes with diminishing returns. To get the full use of Faith for GP requires excluding the option to buy post-Industrial land units and as such it is not really a fair comparison. You and I would both agree that we'd pick For the Glory of God and/or Jesuit Education if given the chance but Religion works on a first-come-first-served basis and we may not always have that luxury. Every other Reformation belief aside from those two, and arguably Religious Fervor, are situational at best and tailored to either the Diplomatic/Cultural victory. For Religious Fervor, we must first know how much each unit costs. If it is ridiculous, we skip it, otherwise Religious Fervor would likely be our go-to choice once FtGoG or JE are taken.

Edit: Okay, I've just checked the Screenshot Thread. Apparently, Comanche Cavalry costs about 300 Faith at what we can assume is Quick Speed. We can infer then that Cavalry costs about 340-350 base Faith on Quick Speed. Assuming they increase in costs with era, you would likely be better off spending on the early-Industrial units and late-game buying is probably infeasible. With these costs though, rush-buying Artillery is very feasible at only a slightly higher production mark-up in comparison to the Cavalry, about 400 Faith if my numbers are right. Make of that what you will.
 
Do you really want to waste precious faith in units and buildings that you can buy with money?

It depends on your religious set-up. Sometimes I find that I've set up a religion that generates lots of faith and I don't have much to spend it on, apart from late game great persons, which soon cost too much. If your faith production is low, it's indeed best to choose beliefs that don't cost faith.
 
I think near the beginning of MadDjinn's stream, when he was going over policies, he noted that the finisher was 'semi-important', and said that he'd go over why that's the case later on, though I don't think he actually got back to it (though I have't watched the whole thing yet, so am not entirely sure).

The finisher provides culture for Holy Sites. Hotels, Airports & the National Visitors Centre convert culture from improvements into (base) tourism. To a total of 200%, or 6 tourism per holy site.
 
It depends on your religious set-up. Sometimes I find that I've set up a religion that generates lots of faith and I don't have much to spend it on, apart from late game great persons, which soon cost too much. If your faith production is low, it's indeed best to choose beliefs that don't cost faith.

That is very true. Much depends on how you use your religion. A religion without much focus on converting, but a very large Faith production can put quite a few Holy Sites on the map, increasing the Faith received even more. In late game, any further option to spend them that doesn't increase in cost rapidly is a nice bonus.
 
It depends on your religious set-up. Sometimes I find that I've set up a religion that generates lots of faith and I don't have much to spend it on, apart from late game great persons, which soon cost too much. If your faith production is low, it's indeed best to choose beliefs that don't cost faith.

Don't forget that the piety tree allows you to buy ANY kind of great person, something that you most likely never encountered in any of your games, your experience of the diminishing return in GP buying is probably biased in that regard.
Moreover now there are 2 more GP than before for a total of 7 different GP that are well worth the expense (not including military ones) that's 7k faith you'd want to spend there and up to 17500 to get two of each (which is still reasonable).

Add to that the fact that you still need faith to build holy sites (and you'd want to have them if you can) and missionaries/prophets to make your religion dominant enough, I doubt you will find yourself with excess happiness.

I agree however that it really depends on the faith cost of the new units. If it's something under the three digits then well yeah it's great, but if it's around 500 faith per unit then I'd say no.
 
Wasn't it one of the Reformation beliefs that enabled the buying of any GP type? Not Piety itself?
 
I just watched MJ's video explaining policies too.

It is really good that Piety is ancient - the opener is also very good, and the second policy with +1faith is also good early.

The other ones looks bad hovever, I can imaginge picking Piety for a first policy ever.

Maybe picking the first one mixng with tradition, with Maya or Egyipt.

Honor also not appealing at all for a first policy. Is it good in multiplayer?

Since cultural victory is no longer about accumulating policy trees, it may be that mixing-and-matching between policy trees is a more viable option, and Piety does have a good opening policy (and I at least would value unlocking Djenne). Unless there's a particularly strong finisher, I don't see why you'd necessarily want to confine yourself to a single policy tree from now on.
 
I believe that the main reason why Piety was so weak was because it's Policies were no match to that of Rationalism, but now that is gone, because Piety no longer locks you out from Rationalism and vice versa.
 
Reformation belief doesn't help if you don't find a religion and Piety doesn't help with that. Half building time for Shrines and Temples is still slow. On King, AI's get pantheon super fast. Opener of Piety need to give you 100 faith or something so you get a pantheon right away(the 100 faith would go back to 0 after this) and give +1 faith for shrines and temples.
 
Reformation belief doesn't help if you don't find a religion and Piety doesn't help with that. Half building time for Shrines and Temples is still slow. On King, AI's get pantheon super fast. Opener of Piety need to give you 100 faith or something so you get a pantheon right away(the 100 faith would go back to 0 after this) and give +1 faith for shrines and temples.

Below Deity, it's not a massive struggle to get a religion going if you are making any kind of effort to get one.
 
I think those who think Piety opener is not as strong are still stuck in the G&K mindset. The game is different now, and not just because Piety is in Ancient.

Just a small note that reveals how some people are still thinking about religion in BNW (incorrectly): You can't play a game where your main cities do not have other religions. Other Civs decide where to put trade routes, so unless you DOW on sight and then send a fleet of inquisitors to follow your conquest everywhere (in which case, you REALLY need to go at least 3 down in piety to afford all that)... you're going to get other religions in your cities.

Now, is Religious Tolerance a strong social policy? No, it's not. At the end of the day, it's getting someone else's pantheon, which has a 33% chance of being absolutely inapplicable to your city or what you're trying to do... and a pantheon is really no better than a other social policy to begin with (in fact, it's usually worse). But, every tree has a weak link except for tradition.

You would only go down this tree entirely if you plan on having a dominant religion that you would spread (I think this should be obvious, just like how you would not go down honor if you were going to buy off all your enemies, never go liberty if you were going tall). You would only at most initially go one down this tree otherwise, if you wanted your own religion for your 4-city empire and a couple extra GPs in end game. Then, judging by what religion comes, you might eventually take Religious Tolerance, and late game, the +10% gold from Theocracy is actually not bad.

On the other hand, if you were spreading wide, Theocracy and Religious Tolerance might be underpowered in the early game, but Mandate of Heaven is completely overpowered for buying missionaries (and remember, you have a good shot at building great mosque, and you should if you were trying to spread wide), and even more overpowered if you had a religious building follower belief. Reformation belief (which you will have precious few competitors for, so you can get your top or second choice at worst on 90% of games) of Evangelism, Unity of the Prophets are gold. The converting barbs one on the other hand, is also great as it lets you save a ton of hammers (barbs scale with average civ's tech, so if you keep a couple of nearby barb camps alive by blocking off other civs' units, you can get free era-appropriate units every couple of turns) for your infrastructure.

It's obviously better for cultural/diplomacy/domination victories than it is for science (which kind of makes sense), better for wide than tall, and if you stick with the "Tall Science is King" mentality of G&K, then sure, Piety still sucks, obviously. But assuming all of the victory conditions are roughly balanced in BNW... Piety won't be a bad tree to open with halfway, or go all the way down. It doesn't have to be better than Tradition to be viable, and even optimal for many civs in many situations.
 
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