Here is my turn 186 and turn 240 savegame (i forgot to save on 180). I dont know if its gonna be useful, as i dont seem to be using the same options. ( I just loaded your turn6000 savegame and changed AI Flexible Dificulty. Ill send some more later if you consider them useful)
Gameplay comparison
- Thread starter 45°38'N-13°47'E
- Start date
triplebassist
Chieftain
I had updated just before trying to load for the first time. Just updated with last night's, and the same error appears.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Downloading the full DL now, if this will be as fast as I think, I'll write an AAR about it!
Make sure you delete civilization.ini and .bak !
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
45°38'N-13°47'E;13230686 said:
Ahh Barbarian Civs? Well that explains a lot
Would you believe that my second build was actually a Settler?
I'm a warmonger a lot, and am quite a fan of early wars (Much to my friend's annoyance since he's very slow to build up his military, but once he does there's nothing that can stop him. Same when we play Age of Empires or Mythology. AgeII and I'm harassing the AI already, but he won't until he's at AgeIV then just bulldozes over everything)
I wanted to declare against Siam when I saw them shuffling settlers up towards my borders like this pair here
View attachment 375683
I had an escort with mine originally, but decided to just risk it and send the settler down on its own, which cut the arrival time in half. And I ended up getting there a turn before he planted the city.
He had a few more cities close to my Border, and I wanted to declare on him to remove them but Genghis was Pleased with the guy and I didn't have anything on hand to bribe him into war so, I just set my military next to the borders and waited. Eventually my Defensive Pact with Khan went up in smoke and war horns sounded out, and I noticed Genghis had declared on Siam himself, took the border city I was eying and then razed it
Siam payed Egypt to declare on him shortly after.
Yeah, even with Tech Diffusion off I'll find some struggling civ and prop them up by gifting them with techs here and there, usually in exchange for declaring on someone. Qin here I got to declare on the Ottomans who were at the time stronger than me and much ahead in tech. Some trades with Genghis and Churchill got me closer to the lead
I've been gifting Qin with stuff every now and then since he's by far the furthest behind (And not being the Worst Enemy of Chruchill or Genghis, both of whom I'm Friendly with)
I like paying the AI to declare on each other, and jump at the chance to get them to do so. Sometimes they even re-declare on each other on their own accord in the future. That one war declaration is often enough to poison relations forever. It depends on the leader though - leaders who will plot war at Pleased will often only need one bribed war declaration to forever stain a relationship.
So, my first 60 Turns! 
Got 3 cities, 2 of them almost up-to-date with buildings, the third founded in T 54 or so. Moscow is about to build another settler to go near those cottons in the forest (now that I can cut them and get
). I should start finding ways to make money, deficit is rising.
Blitzed through the techs, was also lucky to pop a couple from huts, got myself a few wonders, especially Pyramids and Sphinx, revolted to slavery and despotism, founded Hellenism. Didn't exactly beeline to it, but went in the general direction sort of.
Met Shaka (who has founded Hinduism), Hammurabi and Genghis.
The first three religions went to someone else (Shaka included), though I didn't really try to get them. Lascaux and Stonehenge also were taken before I bothered trying (though honestly with Monuments just giving +1
and not the anymore, I didn't really need it).
Lost one poor scout to a Bear.
The terrain is a tad difficult for me, finding decent city spots is a game of compromise.
Oh yeah, I didn't use exactly your same BUG options, some just bugrolleyes me, like that terrain battle damage one, makes my pc stutter if I look at it.
Got 3 cities, 2 of them almost up-to-date with buildings, the third founded in T 54 or so. Moscow is about to build another settler to go near those cottons in the forest (now that I can cut them and get
). I should start finding ways to make money, deficit is rising.Blitzed through the techs, was also lucky to pop a couple from huts
, got myself a few wonders, especially Pyramids and Sphinx, revolted to slavery and despotism, founded Hellenism. Didn't exactly beeline to it, but went in the general direction sort of.Met Shaka (who has founded Hinduism), Hammurabi and Genghis.
The first three religions went to someone else (Shaka included), though I didn't really try to get them. Lascaux and Stonehenge also were taken before I bothered trying (though honestly with Monuments just giving +1
and not the anymore, I didn't really need it).Lost one poor scout to a Bear.
The terrain is a tad difficult for me, finding decent city spots is a game of compromise.
Oh yeah, I didn't use exactly your same BUG options, some just bug
rolleyes me, like that terrain battle damage one, makes my pc stutter if I look at it.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
Interesting how differently the religions fell in your game compared to mine
I more or less beelined to Calendar and the Coatl Religion as I nicknamed it, but also picked up Buddhism and Hinduism along the way completely by accident. Wasn't even aiming for them
Only tech I got from a hut was Archery, not that I'm complaining! It allowed me to push those settlers faster than normal.
As for the terrain, I have absolutely no idea. I thought it was part of one of the updates
A few revisions ago I had updated to.... 700-something, 705/708 I think - and started a game on the Antarctic scenario and noticed the Plains terrain looking a lot different than I was used to. At first I thought it was because I had come from a different mod prior to updating, but since I was always clearing my cache files I don't see how that'd be possible? I was playing a bit of Realism Invictus (Mostly Multiplayer with a buddy of mine) but I don't think the terrain art(s) would get mixed up though... Your guess is as good as mine here
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
As for the terrain, I have absolutely no idea. I thought it was part of one of the updates
A few revisions ago I had updated to.... 700-something, 705/708 I think - and started a game on the Antarctic scenario and noticed the Plains terrain looking a lot different than I was used to. At first I thought it was because I had come from a different mod prior to updating, but since I was always clearing my cache files I don't see how that'd be possible? I was playing a bit of Realism Invictus (Mostly Multiplayer with a buddy of mine) but I don't think the terrain art(s) would get mixed up though... Your guess is as good as mine here
That terrain appeared on SVN after Vokarya's graphical cleanup. But I frankly thought it's the default terrain for BTS. I don't know for sure because I always install Blue Marble from the full installer.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
45°38'N-13°47'E;13231591 said:
Nah, this is the default terrain for BTS.
View attachment 375696 View attachment 375697 View attachment 375698
Not too terribly shabby no, but it feels so strange coming back from C2C/AND/RI and seeing that water graphic. It's hard not to think "My god that water is ugly!"
Some of my very first CivIV games there, back when I was still playing on Chieftain ^^
Hah, my very very very first CivIV game got cut short before the Classic era since I didn't know about Barbarians. Had a barb Warrior waltz right into my completely undefended Capitol on Settler difficulty and lost
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Ok guys, from your saves I get this: if you're expanding quickly, you win easily before industrial; or maybe a bit later but by the time you reach industrial, AI won't be able to keep up. In my game I've used revolution and I've played without trying to invade my neighbours because I'm not a warmonger as I said. This brings me to another problem which has always bothered me: it should be harder (IMHO) to conquer the whole world. Right now going at war and invading your neighbours and keeping their territories is way too easy. I'm wondering if some tweaking is necessary here, like increasing military units production for AI or increasing revolutions rate for humans (not AI!) for conquered cities. Opinions?
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
45°38'N-13°47'E;13231770 said:
Not really sure if there's any easy answer for this, but adding further artificial handicaps onto the player doesn't seem like the right way to go. I think someone suggested putting Settlers at Pottery tech was one suggestion once before..?
I often raze cities I take from the AI anyway, so revolutions from captured cities wouldn't affect me much.
For whatever reason, Noble and Prince in standard BTS always seemed more difficult than their equals in AND. Heck, in History Rewritten I struggle to keep up with the AI on the easiest difficulty. By the time I get to my third city, my neighbor already has NINE.
If the player is expanding too fast for the AI, maybe part of the problem is with how the AI is handling the early game. On top of that, it just seems like the AI doesn't understand how to play AND and tries to approach it like standard BTS at times. It's clear there's a number of features they don't know how to use though (Treasures, coastal bombardment, etc)
Afforess
The White Wizard
Agreed.
Treasures should work now with the AI. I changed the UNITAI to the correct one.
The RevDCM bombardment stuff the AI is clueless about.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Yes, Vokarya did it; I wished to delay this change as it will cause some balance issues I wasn't ready to analyze at the time. Maybe we could change it now. But that doesn't change the fact that humans are expanding faster than AI.
Of course, this is what I was proposing. For the game to be balanced, AI and humans should have at any time a similar number of cities, at least for some AI (definetely impossible for every AI). Only problem is that # of cities founded by humans may vary depending on player's ability and playstyle.
Maybe you're all right and since this game was at Noble, that's enough for now.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
One common reason I end up with more cities in a short period of time is because I'm rushing to acquire certain appealing land and/or resources, even if it does hurt me economically a bit - which since the AI gets big discounts on that, shouldn't be a problem for them to expand expand expand in the early to mid game.
Revolutions are another thing. They often - but not always - hinder the AI, especially in the expansion/land-grab phase, when it often doesn't for me since I expand a bit slower and exponentially increase my military production for every two cities I put out. The AI seems to treat the game no different than any other when Revolutions are on, and I see many empires crumble and split early on, being eaten alive from the inside out because they reject almost every rebel demand even when they simply don't have the military power to back their rejections.
Some empires manage to put those revolutions down with ease and end up remaining a superpower for centuries or even till the end of the game, and expand with abandon... But for the most part the AI will try and expand like a BTS game and then once the revolutions come in... "Rejected their demands!" over and over until they cripple themselves.
It doesn't happen in every game, but it happens a lot. If the AI knew how to handle this component better, that'd solve a lot of problems right there as well.
Revolutions are another thing. They often - but not always - hinder the AI, especially in the expansion/land-grab phase, when it often doesn't for me since I expand a bit slower and exponentially increase my military production for every two cities I put out. The AI seems to treat the game no different than any other when Revolutions are on, and I see many empires crumble and split early on, being eaten alive from the inside out because they reject almost every rebel demand even when they simply don't have the military power to back their rejections.
Some empires manage to put those revolutions down with ease and end up remaining a superpower for centuries or even till the end of the game, and expand with abandon... But for the most part the AI will try and expand like a BTS game and then once the revolutions come in... "Rejected their demands!" over and over until they cripple themselves.
It doesn't happen in every game, but it happens a lot. If the AI knew how to handle this component better, that'd solve a lot of problems right there as well.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
From a different perspective, (here it comes) But maybe you should try a game for balance w/o REV On?
Base game with 1 less option is sometimes a better testing ground for core balance. Otherwise mod becomes slanted towards the Option(s) added in.
Something to think about, another way of thinking perhaps.
JosEPh
Base game with 1 less option is sometimes a better testing ground for core balance. Otherwise mod becomes slanted towards the Option(s) added in.
Something to think about, another way of thinking perhaps.
JosEPh
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
Pretty much this. Games with REevolutions enabled I approach in a VASTLY different manner than ones without. My second build would NOT have been a Settler if Rev had been on (Like it was supposed to). Heck, my initial build list in the first ten turns had FOUR settlers in it. I would not have been expanding this much nor this fast or be planting this many cities if REV was on. Doing so would have been suicide.
It's almost like playing an entirely different game when you enable or disable Revolutions. It's definitely not like the Early Buildings option or Advanced Nukes or so on. I expand slowly when Revolutions are a factor, and I build twice as many or sometijmes even three times as many military units, and I avoid building Tax Offices most of the time.
Revolutions is fun and all, especially if I'm gunning for a nice hectic and unpredictable game, but AND definitely shouldn't be balanced *based on* how REV enabled games play out. I mean, right now I'm in the process of cramming cities onto small little islands for the resources on them. If revolutions were enabled, I'd need a dozen or two troops per city otherwise the citizens there start getting funny ideas. The AI almost invariably loses colonies like this because they *always* send just two or three troops with those settlers, then the demands start rolling in which they always reject, then boom. New civ pops up and they lose the colonies.
My suggestion would be to have two separate save files - one with REV enabled and one without. Since Rev games require a different approach than a normal game... Well, focusing on Rev-enabled games and balancing based on that will produce different results. Honestly, I actually don't know what to suggest
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