Buildings with Trade Routes Tags Discussion

os79

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This thread is for discussion on new tags for the buildings with Trade Routes. This thread can evolve into other places where there is trade routes as needed but we need to start somewhere. So without further ado:

Key Terms:
1. Building Name
2. Its current Trade Route tag, TR = Trade Route, TRY = Trade Route Yield, FTRY = Foreign Trade Route Yield

Regular Buildings
Spoiler :

Airfield
1+ TR

Airport
1+ TR

Castle
--UB: Citadel
1+ TR

City Gate
1+ TR, +25% FTRY

City Gatehouse
-30% FTRY

Civilized Jewelers' Store
+15 TRY
+10 FTRY

Communication Tower
+2 TR

Customs House
--UB: Feitoria
+50% FTRY

Expressway
+1 TR, +25% TRY

Free Port
+10% TRY
+20% FTRY

Harbor
--UB: Cothon
+25% TRY

Hotel
+5% TRY

Hypermarket
+1 TR, +25% TRY

International Port
+3 TR, +50% TRY, +50% FTRY

Jewelry
+25% TRY

Network Node
+3 TR

Paved Roads
+1 TR, +25% TRY

Personal Rapid Train
+1 TR, +25% TRY

Port
+1 TR, +25% TRY, +25% FTRY

Public Transportation
+1 TR, +25% TRY

River Authority
+10% TRY

River Port
+20% TRY

Seaport
+2 TR, +50% TRY, +25% FTRY

Shopping District[/B[
+20% TRY

Spaceport
+2 TR, +25% TRY

Starport
+3 TR, +50% TRY

Telegraph Office
+1 TR

Telephone Network
+2 TR

Toll House
+25% FTRY

Vacation Resort
+10% TRY

Villa
+15% FTRY

Wheelwright
+1 TR


National Wonder Buildings
Spoiler :

None here :D


World Wonder Buildings
Spoiler :

Adam Smith's Trading Company
+50% TRY

Chichen Itza
+2 TR, +25% TRY

Global Stock Exchange
+3 TR in all cities

Hanseatic League
+1 TR in all Coastal Cities, +1 TR in all Cities

Magellan Voyages
+50% TRY

Marco Polo's Embassy
+3 TR

Petra
+1 TR in all Cities

Pyramid of the Magician
+1 TR in all Cities, +50% TRY

Silk Road
+1 TR

The Great Lighthouse
+2 TR in all Coastal Cities

Via Appia
+50% TRY


Projects
Spoiler :

The Internet
+1 TR in the world


Now discuss new tags as suggested by Afforess.
 
Honestly the list is shorter than I imagined. Here's my recommendations:
Airfield
  • 1 Airlift per turn
  • +4 Air unit capacity
  • +4 :commerce: per turn
Rationale: I'm not really sure the airport or airfield should be giving extra trade routes. Yes, they do generate extra commerce, but besides airmail, few industrial goods are transported by air. Flat commerce fits better here.

Airport
  • Replaces Airfield
  • 1 Airlift per turn
  • +6 Air unit capacity
  • +8 :commerce: per turn
Rationale: Same as above. I also axed the +10 :commerce: with power , it doesn't make a lot of sense and 10% :commerce: is a *lot* in the late game.


Castle
--UB: Citadel
  • +25% Espionage
  • +50% Defense
  • +1 Magistrate Slot
  • +3 :commerce: when connected to the capital
Rationale: I am again not sure why castles would yield extra trade. I guess it could be argued that they would encourage city growth, but that is a stretch, there are just as many isolated castles in history. +3 :commerce: when connected to the capital seems a far compensation.

City Gate
Remove building. No longer necessary, redundant with City Gatehouse.

City Gatehouse
  • +25% Defense
  • +50 Defense against Espionage
  • Requires 1 citizen to work building
Rationale: Previously this building hurt trade, at the expense of some extra defense. I boosted the defense from 15% to 25%, and espionage defense from 20% to 50%, but required a citizen to "work" the gatehouse, to effectively "man" the walls. So it is a great defensive and counter-espionage structure, but really should not be used everywhere.

Civilized Jewelers' Store
  • +5% :commerce: with Gems, Gold, Pearls, Silver
Rationale: All I did was remove the 15% trade route yield, and 10% foreign trade route yield. The commerce boosts here are plenty, the trade route bonuses were very minor in comparison.

Communication Tower
  • +15% Culture
  • +1 happy per 10% culture rate
  • +3 Artists slots
  • -33% Maintenance
Rationale: Replaces Telephone Network, continues that building upgrade chain.

Customs Office & Feitoria
  • + 1 :commerce: per 3 (scaled for map size, 3 is standard) connected foreign cities (max 10 :commerce: )
Rationale: +1 :commerce: for every 3 connected foreign cities should make it easy to rack up extra income and encourage open borders.

Expressway
  • + 1 :commerce: per connected domestic city (max 10 :commerce: )
Rationale: +1 :commerce: for each city should easily replace the +1 TR and +25% TR yield.

Free Port
  • + 1 :commerce: per connected domestic city (max 5 :commerce: )
  • + 1 :commerce: per 3 (scaled for map size, 3 is standard) connected foreign cities (max 5 :commerce: )
  • +1 Merchant slot
Rationale: Should be a fairly attractive build now. Before the +10% TR and +20% Foreign TR yield was actually rather paltry.

Harbor
--UB: Cothon
  • +1 :commerce: from each connected domestic city ( max 5 :commerce: )
  • +1 :health: from Clam, Crab, Fish, Shrimp
Rationale: I removed the default +1 :commerce: it gave. Cities on the water should have loads of free trade routes already, so the 5 :commerce: max should be easy to get.

Hotel
  • +5% :gold:
  • +2 :gold: per turn
  • +1 Merchant slot
  • +1 :c5happy: per 25% :culture: rate
Rationale: Replaced the 5% TR yield with +2 :gold: per turn, more than generous.

Hypermarket
  • +100% Gold
  • +25% War Weariness
  • +2 Merchant Slots
  • +1 health from Cow, Deer, Pig, Sheep
  • +1 food
Rationale: This building is absurdly powerful already. I axed the +20 :commerce: per turn it provided, as well as the +1 TR. I still think it's too powerful, but we'll see how it goes.
 
Split because the above post was becoming too long.

International Port
  • +1 :commerce: on water tiles
  • +3 :commerce: with Whale, Ivory, Fur, Silk, Wine, Coffee
  • +1 :health: from Clam, Crab, Fish, Shrimp
  • +5 :commerce: per turn
  • +3 :culture: per turn
  • +1 :c5angry:
  • +2 :yuck:
  • +1 :commerce: from each connected domestic city ( max 10 commerce )
  • +1 :commerce: per 3 (scaled for mapsize) connected foreign cities ( max 10 commerce )
Rationale:Increase over the port, total commerce maxed out at 25 per turn

Jewelry
  • +10% :gold:
  • +2 :commerce: with Gems, Gold, Silver
Rationale: Honestly the Jewelry seems plenty fine even without the TR bonus. No change, besides axing the +25% TR yield.

Network Node
  • +25% :culture:
  • +3% Great People Birth Rate in All Cities
  • +1 :c5happy: per 10% culture
  • +5 Artist Slots
  • +3 :c5happy: with Hit Musicals, Hit Singles, Hit Movies.
  • -40% Maintenance
Rationale: Carries over the Communication Tower connected bonus, continues that upgrade chain.

Paved Roads
  • +1 :commerce: when connected to city capital
  • +1 :commerce: per 3 (scaled for mapsize) connected foreign cities (max 5 :commerce: )
Rationale: I axed the maintenance cost. It seems silly for a building to both give, and take commerce. Do one or the other! Now encourages trade and well-connected cities.

Personal Rapid Train
  • +0.1 :health: per citizen
  • +1 :health:
  • +1 :c5happy:
  • +10% Maintenance
  • +1 :health: from Oil
  • +1 :commerce: when connected to city capital
Rationale: I simply removed the +1 TR and +25% TR yield. I don't see why personal transport trains would affect trade.

Port
  • +1 :commerce: with Fur, Silk, Wine
  • +1 :health: from Clam, Crab, Fish, Shrimp
  • +2 :commerce: per turn
  • +1 :culture: per turn
  • +1 :yuck:
  • +1 :commerce: from each connected domestic city ( max 8 :commerce: )
Rationale: An improvement over the harbor. Fully maxed out, yields +10 :commerce: a turn.

------

Stopping here for now. I have to go for the evening, I'll finish this tomorrow.
 
Look good so far.
 
I won't pretend to understand the balance, but having understandable quantities is always an improvement over something vague.
 
I won't pretend to understand the balance, but having understandable quantities is always an improvement over something vague.

Right, I think that is the best part of the outcome of removing TR's. What does +1 TR mean? What does +25% TR yield mean? Hard to tell. +1 :commerce: per connected city is easy to understand. Modifiers should be created in such a way that you can glance at them and immediately understand what they do, whether you need them or not, and the long term implications. TR's do not satisfy any of those criteria. They are an opaque, hidden, and very random mechanic.
 
I completely agree. I'm only a dubious Noble player after many years of playing on and off, and I certainly haven't got any idea of what TRs do, other than that it's a vaguely a good idea to have some of them. :)
 
After years of not knowing how to manipulate TRs I just left them alone. Let the "under the hood" stuff do it's thing while I did mine.

Long ago when RoM left many of the simple + or - x gold for % of x commerce/gold I stopped trying to be a math wizard to figure out the "optimum" why to play. I learned to play by "feel" or trial and error to have the desired results I wanted. Of course this made it harder to explain when a problem arose what was going on. Which caused me a lot of grief from the modders/devs because I wasn't "plain" enough in my explanation. I spoke in generalities because that's all I know.

So all that said, I'm greatly in favor of anything that simplifies.

JosEPh :old: simpleton
 
After reading base game help file on City Trade Network (should had done that a long time ago, go figure :p)' here's my understanding of how Afforess will improve over vague TR, TRY, and FTRY.

Your capital is the center of network obviously.
Now few base terrains can connect cities.
  • Rivers
  • Coast after you get Sailing tech
  • Ocean after you get Navigation tech
Now few developments can connect cities
  • Cart Path
  • Road
  • Paved Road
  • Highway
  • Railroad
  • Few more very advanced connections available in late game

I needed to get obvious out of way in case there're people who didn't know the City Network game system in-depth.

As Afforess succinctly stated, we have vague idea of what abstract trade routes and their yields are and how they give needed benefits in-game.

So Afforess' ideas basically use all the connections listed above to actually give clear and useful meaning to the game other than connecting City Networks, both domestically and internationally. :)
 
I (for one) understand city networking. Fortunately, I'm not that dense. :)
 
There is also the issue of Black Tiles and Connection of Networks. I remember once reading about this but I forgot where.

For Resource trade it seems only one of the partners need to to be connected to the other's trade network.

For Trade Routes, the city must be connected to the other city's trade network.

But black tiles don't allow connection.

Even though what I think I've read already is that if your cities' trade network is connected to a tile that is connected to some other civ Trade Network, then you're connected to all Trade Networks connected to his Trade Network (or at least to all cities he own in his Trade Network), even if the tiles are further black between you and this(these) Trade Network(s).

I know we are going down this path already, but TRs aren't so unmanageable as some of you guess (but it's yield being unpredictable is still a reality, maybe only if you play like Sullla and his mates).

I explained some concepts about TRs on the other thread. The most important key on this mechanic is that it's rather predictable the evolution of TRs on your empire opposed to sudden changes predictions of TR yields. You want your best Trade Partner to grow, because distance and size don't stack, and only the highest is chosen for the formula. And you like distant partners more then close partners. Majorly Overseaness makes better partners.

So if you know how much TR :commerce: you get from some player, you know how important he is to your economy. If you know how much a city produces in TR :commerce:, you know how much TR% buildings will give you. And if it gives +X TRs, you may presume additional TRs will most of the time give you a new value weaker then previous ones, but at least close to the old last.

It took me a long time to digest it all, but TRs became an important aspect of gameplay to me as early as the Representation/Mercantilism Combo introduced the conflict of imagining which would be better: Foreign TRs or +1 Free Spec in an Early Representation Strategy (BtS).

TRs even introduce the concept of 'getting to the other sea' in early game. If you can have coastal cities in different seas, you have more chances of keeping good TRs because you'll have more ways to reach the Trade Networks. I doubt connectedness as it's being created will substitute this at least with the same economic and gameplay impact.
 
It took me a long time to digest it all, but TRs became an important aspect of gameplay to me as early as the Representation/Mercantilism Combo introduced the conflict of imagining which would be better: Foreign TRs or +1 Free Spec in an Early Representation Strategy (BtS).

TRs even introduce the concept of 'getting to the other sea' in early game. If you can have coastal cities in different seas, you have more chances of keeping good TRs because you'll have more ways to reach the Trade Networks. I doubt connectedness as it's being created will substitute this at least with the same economic and gameplay impact.

I think there are already enough big advantages to getting to the sea. First to circumnavigate is a huge bonus. With my changes, Harbors give :commerce: with foreign cities, which is also big. I'm not too worried.
 
My enthusiasm lies in the performance enhancement, so I quit trying to defend otherwise, but the idea of getting to the other sea is far superior in potential then to circumnavigate the Globe (if it's still +1:move: only, didn't do it in AND yet). It may be done quite early if you get for example an eastern and western shore (two or more different water accesses). If you get an enemy in the coast that blocks your TRs one way, you'll probably have another. Barb Coastal cities are masters at TR disruption. Having access to different waters mean more stability in managing TRs and more reliability in its bonus.

With connectedness, as long as you have max n° of cities for each device it's ok, independently of a superiority of routes. With connectedness routes become simply bonuses for partner cities (with the distinction of domestic and foreign). It makes War Declaration lose one of its major decision factors: economic recession. Get yourself enough vassals to fill all foreign conncectedness you need and then you're free of economic problems to declare war in the world (besides normal :gold: or resource/resource but that's not as powerful as TRs (that are pure :commerce: bonus instead of restricted :gold:, :) or :health: bonus). And resources BTW are something you conquer from enemies, while foreign TRs aren't.

Colonies will lose any pure economic bonus and will be more resource exploration sites only.

And maybe even more that I'm still not aware of.
 
Get yourself enough vassals to fill all foreign conncectedness you need and then you're free of economic problems to declare war in the world (besides normal :gold: or resource/resource but that's not as powerful as TRs (that are pure :commerce: bonus instead of restricted :gold:, :) or :health: bonus).

*looks at Spain, England*
 
Ok, the rest of the buildings.

Public Transportation
  • +0.1 :health: per citizen
  • +10% Maintenance
  • +1 :health:
  • +1 :health: from oil
  • +1 commerce when connected to city capital
Rationale: I removed the +1 TR and +25% TR yield. I added + 1 base healthy. Not sure what public transport has to do with trade.

River Authority
  • +1 :yuck:
  • +1 :commerce: on river tiles
  • Replaces River Port
Rationale: +1 on river tiles is already powerful, the 10% TR is very minor in comparison. Easy decision to axe the TR modifier. I also made it replace the River Port. Yay building upgrades.

River Port
  • +2 :commerce:
Rationale: I doubled the commerce from 1 to 2 in lieu of the 20% TR modifier.

Seaport
  • +1 :commerce: on water tiles
  • +3 :commerce: with Whale, Ivory, Fur, Silk, Wine, Coffee
  • +1 :health: from Clam, Crab, Fish, Shrimp
  • +5 :commerce: per turn
  • +2 :culture: per turn
  • +1 :c5angry:
  • +2 :yuck:
  • +1 :commerce: from each connected domestic city ( max 10 :commerce: )
Rationale: Increase over the port, total commerce maxed out at 15 per turn

Shopping District
  • +33% :gold:
  • +4 Merchant Slots
  • +1 :c5happy: from Hit Musicals, Hit Singles, Hit Movies
  • Replaces Market
Rationale: I actually nerfed this building, from +50% gold to +33% gold. It replaces the market, which gives +20% gold. A 150% increase in the gold modifier just didn't make sense. Removed the +20% TR yield.

Spaceport
  • Can airlift 2 units per turn
  • +8 Air capacity
  • Requires access to power
  • +12 :commerce: per turn
  • +3 :yuck:
  • Replaces Airport
Rationale: Its an improvement over the 8 commerce per turn from the airport, to 12. Removed the +30% commerce with power (how does space travel work w/o power?!? ) Instead requires power to build at all.

Starport
  • Can airlift 2 units per turn
  • +8 Air capacity
  • Requires access to power
  • +16 :commerce: per turn
  • +3 :yuck:
  • Replaces Spaceport
Rationale: Same as above, really.

Telegraph Office
  • +5% culture
  • -15% Maintenance
Rationale: Switched the +10% Maintenance to -15% Maintenance. My reasoning is that telegraphs allowed for the first time, instantaneous communication, which would vastly speed up government functions and allow for vastly improved response times to problems. Any extra cost in telegraph line maintenance is easily offset by the instant communications advantage.

Telephone Network
  • +10% culture
  • -25% Maintenance
  • Replaces Telegraph Office
Rationale: Same as above. Telephones are even more efficient.

Toll House
  • +1 :commerce: from every 3 (scaled to mapsize) connected foreign cities ( max 8 :commerce: )
Rationale: Replaced +25% Foreign Trade Route yield with foreign connectedness bonus.

Vacation Resort
  • +2 :c5happy:
  • +4 :culture: per turn
  • +10% :gold:
  • +1 Artist Slot
  • +1 happy per 10% culture rate
  • +1 free merchant specialist
  • +1 Free specialist per Safari, Forest Preserve
Rationale: Removed the +10% TR yield, it's minor compared to the rest of the bonuses here.

Villa
  • Requires 1 citizen to work building
  • +3 :commerce:
  • +4 :commerce: when connected to capital city
  • +4 :culture:
Rationale: It previously had +5 commerce and -3 food. Well, -3 food is the same as requiring one citizen to work, so I prefer that option instead. It now gives a maximum of 7 commerce if fully connected.

Wheelwright
  • +1 :commerce: when connected to capital
  • +1 extra commerce with Trade, Chariotry
Rationale: Replaced +1 TR with 1 commerce when connected to the capital.
 
And the regular buildings are done.

Opinion, people?
 
Finally, wonders!

Adam Smith's Trading Company
  • +2 Merchant Slots
  • +2 GP Merchant Points
  • Opens trade routes to all other players
  • +1 :commerce: from per 4 (scaled for mapsize) connected foreign cities ( max 25 :commerce: )
Rationale: 25 max commerce should plenty compensate for the lost 50% TR yield. Add in the fact it is almost guaranteed to be attained due to the forced open trade routes, and it's an easy choice.

Chichen Itza
  • +25% defense in all cities
  • +6 :culture:
  • +2 GP Diplomat Points
  • +1 :commerce: from each connected domestic city ( max 25 :commerce: )
Rationale: 25 max commerce should plenty compensate for the lost 2 TRs and yield.


Global Stock Exchange
  • +2 GP Merchant Points
  • +1 :commerce: from per 3 (scaled for mapsize) connected foreign cities ( max 50 :commerce: )
Rationale: Same as above...

Hanseatic League
  • +2 :culture: per turn
  • +2 GP Merchant points
  • +1 :commerce: from per 4 (scaled for mapsize) connected foreign cities ( max 15 :commerce: )
  • +1 :commerce: from each connected domestic city ( max 15 :commerce: )
Rationale: Same as above...

Magellan Voyages
  • Free Maneuvering I Promotion
  • +2 Experience for Water Units
  • +4 :culture: per turn
  • +2 GP Merchant Points
  • +10 :science: per turn
  • +10 :commerce: per turn
Rationale: Replaced the +50% TR yield with +10 science and +10 commerce. Fits, better, as a scientific voyage more than an economic one.

Marco Polo's Embassy
  • +2 :culture: per turn
  • +2 GP Merchant Points
  • +1 :commerce: from Merchant in all cities
  • +1 :commerce: for each connected foreign capital
Rationale: I wonder if anyone reads these rationales.

Petra
  • +3 :culture: per turn
  • +2 GP Prophet Points
  • +1 Free Priest
  • +1 :commerce: for each connected foreign capital
Rationale: Just makes sense to me.

Pyramid of the Magician
  • +4 :culture: per turn
  • +2 GP Prophet Points
  • Starts a Golden Age
  • Spreads Nagualism
  • +2 Priest Slots
  • +10 :gold: per turn
Rationale: Gold makes sense more than trade routes for a state religion wonder.

Silk Road
  • +100% :gold
  • +1 Merchant Slots
  • +3 :culture: per turn
  • +2 GP Merchant Points
Rationale: Removed +1 TR, replaced it with nothing. 100% gold is huge on its own.

The Great Lighthouse
  • +2 :commerce: on water tiles for this city
  • +1 movement for all water units
  • +5 :commerce:
  • Replaces Lighthouse
Rationale: Made it a more natural upgrade for the lighthouse, and increased movement is due to safer coastal travel.

Via Appia
  • Connects all cities on the same continent with paved roads
  • +1 :commerce: from each connected domestic city ( max 25 :commerce: )
  • +2 :culture:
  • +2 GP Merchant Points

The Internet
  • +1 Gold, Culture, Science, Espionage for all cities in the world per turn (applies to all civs)
 
I read the Rationale :). :lol:

The regular buildings revisions look good. I have no position on Wonders revisions. The Internet revision looks just right.
 
So do I. I think it's more helpful than the actual rules. :D

Why would you spend all that effort building the Internet if everyone everywhere benefits from it?
 
So do I. I think it's more helpful than the actual rules. :D

Why would you spend all that effort building the Internet if everyone everywhere benefits from it?

Good question . Why do modders release public mods when everyone else benefits...

:p
 
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