Inventions (Technical aspects)

Ok guys,

I still do believe that it is a very bad idea to mess with Professions (logical or graphical).
But since I am not the one implementing this, I leave the decision to Robert and the team how this feature should be implemented.

Robert Surcouf said:

Without what? I don't understand... Let's say you pick Peter Stuyvesant as your Leader. Instead of just having (dutch) Veteran soldiers, you will have (European) Arquebusiers, (European) Soldiers and (Dutch) Riflemen. Isn't that an improvement? Of course if you meet some French or English Arquebusiers or Soldiers they will look like yours.

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From a player's perspective, I have to support Robert Surcouf on that.

Since long it has bothered me to see " 'Old Ironsides'/USS Constitution"-style frigates and riflemen of the 18th century during the whole game.

Nevertheless, one has to keep in mind that the game engine has to keep all data in memory which may cause some problems when having different UnitArtStyles for each and everything. This would be something to be tested.

I would like to start with 4 new professions:
Arquebusier, Mounted Arquebusier, Soldier, and Cavalry (we can change those names of course, it's just an example)
Each profession needs 2 nif files (one for regular units and one for veterans)
and 2 dds files. That means we only need 16 files, which is not much. And I believe I've already found them all (check my early Storm and Light...). Most of them are from Bts and some other mods...
..
I still do believe that it is a very bad idea to mess with Professions (logical or graphical).
But since I am not the one implementing this, I leave the decision to Robert and the team how this feature should be implemented.

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Ok, I can accept it too if it can really work.. If you're strongly wanting this & want to implement it, I guess you can try adapting Kailric's existing mod and see how it goes, to verify that it won't cause crashes/performance problems (IIRC his mod allows techs to unlock units/professions and obsolete other units/professions, so perhaps this can be used to allow older and then modern Soldier types). My only worry is this might create weeks to months of work and possible errors for a very small graphical difference, and might cause us not to be able to get Inventions implemented at all

Inventions seems like great idea, but as I see from your posts it is bit complicated.I would suggest that you take a look at Mediavel: Conquests mod.It has implemented solution, maybe it could help you.
In that mod there are some other interesting concepts, it could help to make R&R even better.

Hrvoje193 said:

Inventions seems like great idea, but as I see from your posts it is bit complicated.

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It depends on what we really want to do with that feature.

Also we are discussing this from a very specific perspective of our mod.
(For other mods, things might be very different.)

Hrvoje193 said:

I would suggest that you take a look at Mediavel: Conquests mod.It has implemented solution, maybe it could help you.

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The base feature of Inventions would be an adaption of Kailric's work.
(Basically this is what we are talking about.)

Hrvoje193 said:

In that mod there are some other interesting concepts, it could help to make R&R even better.

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Don't worry, all experienced modders know all other large CivCol mods.
(The scene is small enough so we all know each other and each other's work.)

Kailric is a legend in CivCol modding.
It would be a real shame if we did not know his implementations.

Hrvoje193 said:

Inventions seems like great idea, but as I see from your posts it is bit complicated.I would suggest that you take a look at Mediavel: Conquests mod.It has implemented solution, maybe it could help you.
In that mod there are some other interesting concepts, it could help to make R&R even better.

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Hi thank you, Hrvoje193 ! Of course we're going to use Kailric's work
Don't worry !

@ Team:
Well, let's not argue for a long time on this.
First I'll concentrate on the programming part especially if no one wants to help me/us with the graphical aspect.
I'll avoid locking/unlocking professions and only give promotions.

If everything works perfectly, I'll consider editing UnitArtStyles. I think I've found a simple solution. We could add a tag <iLevel> to each unit/profession/meshGroup
And it would hardcoded. When we discover "matchlock musket" we would obtain level 2 units. We would still have the same units (e.g. veterans), the same profession (e.g. soldier) but the game would consider them as level 2 units. And of course level 2 units would have different graphics. Somehow, this would be analog to a change of Era (this would only concern players and not directly the units... only the units' graphics).
Of course, I would add a global define if someone wants to keep the actual feature and have no evolution. I still have difficulties to imagine some would rather have the same units during the whole game, than have an evolution but without specific graphics for each nation in the beginning. ???!! But I can do this.

Would this be acceptable?

Yes, its not worth any arguing lol anyway details of appearance don't matter to me either way compared to the gameplay strategy, but just hope it doesn't absorb tons of time for such a small feature. I searched for a nif tutorial about modifying weapons. Maybe it's eventually possible to take some already existing units and substitute a different rifle if you want:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=312613

As Hrvoje193 mentioned, Kailric's Medieval mod also includes the Wild Animals feature as well as Inventions, and I think it has some more bugfixes than the original Inventor mod version. It also has a features where some barbarian "Marauders" can appear according to difficulty, perhaps we can adapt that for Pirates with some minor adjustment. If that's the case it could be easiest to merge all those features from the Medieval mod to save time.

orlanth said:

Yes, its not worth any arguing lol anyway details of appearance don't matter to me either way compared to the gameplay strategy, but just hope it doesn't absorb tons of time for such a small feature. I searched for a nif tutorial about modifying weapons. Maybe it's eventually possible to take some already existing units and substitute a different rifle if you want:

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This IS possible. I have already done it (e.g. the "Ranger" is one of these units) and a few months ago I knew how to do it D ), but indeed it needs some time and work.

orlanth said:

Yes, its not worth any arguing lol anyway details of appearance don't matter to me either way compared to the gameplay strategy, but just hope it doesn't absorb tons of time for such a small feature. I searched for a nif tutorial about modifying weapons. Maybe it's eventually possible to take some already existing units and substitute a different rifle if you want:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=312613

As Hrvoje193 mentioned, Kailric's Medieval mod also includes the Wild Animals feature as well as Inventions, and I think it has some more bugfixes than the original Inventor mod version. It also has a features where some barbarian "Marauders" can appear according to difficulty, perhaps we can adapt that for Pirates with some minor adjustment. If that's the case it could be easiest to merge all those features from the Medieval mod to save time.

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Thank you Orlanth for this link and thank you for the information

As Hrvoje193 mentioned, Kailric's Medieval mod also includes the Wild Animals feature as well as Inventions, and I think it has some more bugfixes than the original Inventor mod version. It also has a features where some barbarian "Marauders" can appear according to difficulty, perhaps we can adapt that for Pirates with some minor adjustment. If that's the case it could be easiest to merge all those features from the Medieval mod to save time.

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Medieval and R&R are two best mods for Civ4Col.Combining best of both would result in perfect mod!
As I mentioned in http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=476972 Medieval features like ground combat system(naval could and should be better in all mods) research and beautiful custom graphics are things that could really make R&R better.
Most of this R&R team is already considering, maybe it could make things easier, and save considerable time.
I am not moder so I can't help you much, but I will try to give you feedback on mod.

Keep up with great work.

Hrvoje193 said:

Medieval and R&R are two best mods for Civ4Col.Combining best of both would result in perfect mod!
As I mentioned in http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=476972 Medieval features like ground combat system(naval could and should be better in all mods) research and beautiful custom graphics are things that could really make R&R better.
Most of this R&R team is already considering, maybe it could make things easier, and save considerable time.
I am not moder so I can't help you much, but I will try to give you feedback on mod.

Keep up with great work.

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Thank you very much
I'll see what I can find

I have suggestion for Inventions: unlocking specific techs should in some cases lock others, for the purpose of specialization.For example - In real life you can't be warrior, priest and entertainer all in one person.(ok, Chuck Norris can)
If you have all the tehnologies game(or real life) is sometimes too easy, tough choices what makes fun.
Of course I don't mean locking half possibilities, only some.

raystuttgart said:

Unlocking Professions (and using existing System of UnitArtStyles)

I promise you that this will cause us problems and efforts without end.
(Conflicts with default professions, performance problems because of massive amounts of checks, performance problems and efforts because of massive amount of new graphics, ...)

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A few years ago, I did a lot of work on this. My files from that time are now gone, but I was then able to implement activating/deactivating professions through technology. The technical issues that had to be solved were minor (the only technical issue that I didn't solve was the DefaultProfession one, which made soldiers appear at the docks with PROFESSION_COLONIST, but that too can be solved easily by making DefaultProfession an array, and have the game use the first available profession of the array when creating the unit as the unit's default profession). I'm not entirely sure about performance issues, but I don't recall seeing a significant effect.

So, I don't think the technical issues are that problematic. The more important issues with such a feature I'd say are:

1) Design - design-wise, do we want to have professions unlocked by technology? I think it is a good idea, but if many team members think it is a bad idea for design reasons, then we shouldn't do it.

2) Effort - although the effort to make that professions unlocked by technology work properly wouldn't be extreme, it would still be considerable (because there are only a few technical issues to solve in this regard, but they do exist, IIRC). Is the effort worth it?

3) Graphics - it is unlikely that we can find graphics for these professions for all civilizations. There is also the further problem that we need both normal and veteran graphics for European civilizations. This would probably be surmountable if we didn't use specific graphics for every civilization, but although that wouldn't be a big deal for me, I understand that others may want to maintain the standard of every unit graphic being civilization-specific.

We all know that almost everything can be solved from a technical perspective.

A good feature is always a matter of efforts, balancing, risks(potential bugs), atmosphere and gameplay(fun).
Performance of course is also an important factor.

If I see heavy problems in only one of these areas, I will not do a feature.
Simply because I am not interested in creating technically outstanding solutions alone.
I am interested in creating good features that integrate well into a complete (big) mod.

Please also recall that Religion and Revolution is not Vanilla.
Our logic already is quite complicated and will become even more complicated.

Hi Androrc, Hi everyone,
Sorry if I have not replied earlier!

Androrc the Orc said:

A few years ago, I did a lot of work on this. My files from that time are now gone, but I was then able to implement activating/deactivating professions through technology.

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Great! That's what I've been wanting to implement

Androrc the Orc said:

The technical issues that had to be solved were minor (the only technical issue that I didn't solve was the DefaultProfession one, which made soldiers appear at the docks with PROFESSION_COLONIST,

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Oh! Rally that was the only technical issue? Actually I had more or less 4 or 5 issues (when I tried to adapt Kailric's inventor modcomp).
The soldier problem was one. But there were other problems especially with the training units in a native village feature. However, from a technical point of view this was related to the unlock/lock units feature and not the unlock/lock profession part.

Androrc the Orc said:

but that too can be solved easily by making DefaultProfession an array, and have the game use the first available profession of the array when creating the unit as the unit's default profession). I'm not entirely sure about performance issues, but I don't recall seeing a significant effect.

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Wow! I'm quite impressed!
I never even thought of that... All this time I've been thinking things the wrong way... I've trind figuring a way to set new default professions during time, but my solution didn't seem interesting after all...
You're solution is brilliant. I must check, but I don't see any problem from a technical point of view...

If we simply put a profession that is never unlocked (e.g. PROFESSION_COLONIST) we will never have a CTD from the specific function "change profession"...
That's your trick. Well done !

Androrc the Orc said:

So, I don't think the technical issues are that problematic. The more important issues with such a feature I'd say are:

1) Design - design-wise, do we want to have professions unlocked by technology? I think it is a good idea, but if many team members think it is a bad idea for design reasons, then we shouldn't do it.

2) Effort - although the effort to make that professions unlocked by technology work properly wouldn't be extreme, it would still be considerable (because there are only a few technical issues to solve in this regard, but they do exist, IIRC). Is the effort worth it?

3) Graphics - it is unlikely that we can find graphics for these professions for all civilizations. There is also the further problem that we need both normal and veteran graphics for European civilizations. This would probably be surmountable if we didn't use specific graphics for every civilization, but although that wouldn't be a big deal for me, I understand that others may want to maintain the standard of every unit graphic being civilization-specific.

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I agree! In my opinion this would be quite interesting, and would add some fun. This isn't easy, but it is worth it...
For now not all members were OK with it (If I'm correct, you Androrc, Orlanth and me ar rather in favor, however Ray and Schmiddie don't seem to like it or are reluctant). Let's wait and see.

At least we've found a way to do it logically

raystuttgart said:

Seriously, let us forget about the professions.

You don't imagine in how many problems we could run. This could cause us CTD after CTD !
(AI logic, default professions, special cases where no profession available, ...)

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Sorry. We do not need to decide not. This feature might never be part of our mod, this isn't the issue in my opinion. However, I think Andorc has found a solution to many problems.
I may be wrong but I don't see any AI logic problem anymore. In my idea, with military units (and this feature is strongly related to military units), we would still have few profession available, and new professions would be stronger than old ones, so AI would automatically change to new ones (we could even try to convert all existing units to the new profession ).
And last but not least the cas were no profession is available would be avoided by systematically adding PROFESSION_COLONIST in the default profession array...

Anyway, whatever we do, I must say your solution Androrc from a technical point of view is great. I'm quite ashamed I never thought about it