So Machine Gun has the strength of a Panzer?

CYZ said:
It should not be too hard to take that out. Such a purely defensive force needs some sort of counter and artillery, early planes and the early tank all seem likely.

Still, I would hate for crossbows to go to mortars directly. But also dislike the idea of 2 range grenadiers.


I'm guessing that crossbows turn into grenadiers (which basic range is 1). Grenadiers are strong in the fact that they can deal a blow without taking damage, and may move after attacking, however they're not very good when attacked directly.

Then Grenadier can turn into machineguns, also range of 1. The machine gun is strong on defense and offense. However it's range of 1 doesn't allow you to use it as the spearhead of your assault very easily. They will be a great defense against counterattacks though.

I don't really see the need for mortars personally, if they do come I hope it's not in the WW1 but WW2 era. Otherwise WW1 will have way too many ranged defensive units.
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I like that idea for Grenadiers: Range 1, move after attacking (and slightly poor but not bad defense)

then upgrade to MG: Range 1, must set up to attack? (with really good defense+attack)

Then Modern upgrade to Mobile Machine gun: Range 1, move 3, move after attacking (but defense+attack no better than MG.. a cheap unit)

Finally (Future Era) upgrade to Combat Robot: Range 1, Move 3, move after attacking (but with good Attack and Defense)
 
Krikkitone said:
I like that idea for Grenadiers: Range 1, move after attacking (and slightly poor but not bad defense)

then upgrade to MG: Range 1, must set up to attack? (with really good defense+attack)

Then Modern upgrade to Mobile Machine gun: Range 1, move 3, move after attacking (but defense+attack no better than MG.. a cheap unit)

Finally (Future Era) upgrade to Combat Robot: Range 1, Move 3, move after attacking (but with good Attack and Defense)
Click to expand...

Hmmm... That could certainly work!

I'd call the mobile machine gun a modern machine gun. Also, give it 2 moves instead of 3 and strong defense+attack. Weak attack makes it useless, it would work best as an upgraded machine gun with the only real difference being able to move after attacking. Then the combat robot (mechanized machinegun?) will have the 3 moves, making it much more of a come in, shoot and go out unit.

But I think this upgrade path would be awesome, it's like every next unit has an evolution compared to the next one and it seems to make sense. Let's hope some developers at Fireaxis had a simmiliar idea.
 
CYZ said:
Hmmm... That could certainly work!

I'd call the mobile machine gun a modern machine gun. Also, give it 2 moves instead of 3 and strong defense+attack. Weak attack makes it useless, it would work best as an upgraded machine gun with the only real difference being able to move after attacking. Then the combat robot (mechanized machinegun?) will have the 3 moves, making it much more of a come in, shoot and go out unit.

But I think this upgrade path would be awesome, it's like every next unit has an evolution compared to the next one and it seems to make sense. Let's hope some developers at Fireaxis had a simmiliar idea.
Click to expand...

oh, how about we convert the GDR into a ranged unit and have it do a 2 hex wide attack with those lasers? (A. bomb like spread)
 
I don't see the point of a modern range unit other than rocket artillery. In previous ages, the difference between the two ranged unit is one needs to set up, and the other doesn't. In the modern era, nothing has to set up. Just make machine guns upgrade to rocket artillery?

I kind of like the idea for grenadiers, but am not convinced.

How about a dragoon unit for crossbows in upgrade to. Sure, it sounds odd as an upgrade tree but kind of fills a niche. Movement 3, moderate range attack strength (range 2), cannot move after firing. Moderate strength in defence, but vulnerable to cavalry. Maybe even get rid of the useless lancers and have these instead.
 
MG to Helicopters would be a weird switch. Considering they're defensive units, upgrading to Mech. Inf. would make more sense.
 
Or just make MG upgrade to rocket artillery, thus being convergent with the seige line. The ranged line is currently convergent with the melee line, so it's not a huge leap of imagination.
 
Eagle Pursuit said:
Or just make MG upgrade to rocket artillery, thus being convergent with the seige line. The ranged line is currently convergent with the melee line, so it's not a huge leap of imagination.
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It might be better to just have MG be a dead end 60 attack+def is OK.. particularly if they are cheap. They then become functionally obsolete with Bombers+Tanks, but they still may be good for garrisoning in cities.

Since 1 range is Really different from 2 Range in the function of the unit. So I'd say

Crossbow->Grenadier->Machine Gun...and that's it

(although if they upgrade from crossbows.... imagine Slinger Machine Guns... that would be interesting.
 
I'm ok with a dead end too. In the real world, MG's still operate the way they did in WW2. If you mount a MG on a vehicle, it doesn't improve the MG. It improves the vehicle. The MG definitely has vulnerabilities now that it didn't when they were invented. Tanks, air strikes, bazookas, long range snipers, but they are still being used the same way. They aren't as effective vs Mech Inf as they are against regular infantry, but they aren't obsolete yet. Whatever supercedes the machine gun hasn't been developed yet.

I suspect a robotic sentry will replace machine guns in the next few decades. It could carry its own ammo and be armored while occupying less space than a vehicle. It could be equipped with a variety of sensors and linked to a battlefield network in real time.
 
Eagle Pursuit said:
I suspect a robotic sentry will replace machine guns in the next few decades. It could carry its own ammo and be armored while occupying less space than a vehicle. It could be equipped with a variety of sensors and linked to a battlefield network in real time.
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that already exists, except for the wandering around part (unless on rails, but whatever).

but it's still just a machine gun. The only real difference is the lack of a body at the location.
 
Right. The next step in development isn't to replace the gun, it's to replace the soldier(s). One gunner and one ammo feeder/spotter get replaced by one robot that doesn't flinch and can see in multiple wavelengths and can communicate with all the other robots in the field and master control in real time.

Beyond that, the machine gun itself will probably get replaced by a directed energy weapon such as a solid state laser at such a time as those and their power sources become portable by the robot.
 
Eagle Pursuit said:
Right. The next step in development isn't to replace the gun, it's to replace the soldier(s). One gunner and one ammo feeder/spotter get replaced by one robot that doesn't flinch and can see in multiple wavelengths and can communicate with all the other robots in the field and master control in real time.

Beyond that, the machine gun itself will probably get replaced by a directed energy weapon such as a solid state laser at such a time as those and their power sources become portable by the robot.
Click to expand...

well, there's still 'minor' things that can change:

Range upgrades (better material, a more accurate rifling of the barrel), damage upgrades (.50 cal or better), utility (smaller but same power), etc.

Of course, an MG Gauss cannon would be pretty fun to see (though definitely no invented yet).
 
Those are all incremental changes. They are the iphone 4S to the current MG's iphone 4. Whatever comes next, like my hypothesized robot sentinel, will have to be a leap ahead or else it's not worth turning into a unit.

You don't jump from Musketmen to Riflemen because they changed the caliber or gunsight. It's because of a paradigm shift in how the guns could be used (also, made), which was a result in changing how the ammunition was packaged and loaded. That's the kind of difference that it will take to remove a 2-3 man team lugging around a heavy machine gun, a tri-pod, and several cans of ammo from the battlefield and replace the whole thing with...something.

I propose the robot because it eliminates the 2-3 man team. That's a notable difference, especially if it alters the tactics.
 
I think remote controlled units in some form might be a good addition to Future Tech, since we only have Giant Death Robots currently. At a minimum, Predator Drones are in the "future is now" category, so it would only be an extension from that.
 
predator drones aren't a unit per se, they dont operate independently. They would be better represented as a promotion that increases line of sight or removes defensive bonuses when attacking another unit or something (not that this would necessarily be a good game decision).
 
I like the Predator drones as a unit. I could see them being utilized in a purely recon role and vulnerable to anti-aircraft. It would be neat to see them being set up to fend off spies, if spies are units in G&K.

Otherwise, they might be cool as an action that you can perform via Espionage to view a region in your enemies territory. Maybe it can kill civilian units like workers and GP's if they are in the target tile. You don't even have to be at war, but you take a huge diplo hit.
 
Predator drones would 100% be a cool unit. Would be nice to have but odds are would appear to late to be used often.
 
I think there should be an upgrade dead end for machine guns. There are still machine guns in use today, and like someone else was saying they are operated and used basically the same as in WW2. They may be expensive in say 1900, but if by 2000 they are real cheap then you can pump them out real quick and if they are killed it doesn't matter that much.
 
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