Economy Civics, Which do you use?

Which Economy Civic do you use/prefer?

  • Mercantilism

    Votes: 3 3.8%
  • Free Market

    Votes: 39 50.0%
  • State Property

    Votes: 32 41.0%
  • Environmentalism

    Votes: 4 5.1%

  • Total voters
    78
No.

1. "You don't need SP if you don't have a big empire".

- Sure SP helps more if your empire is big. FM helps A LOT more if your empire is big. The only reason you would get FM is to run corporations -- corporations need a lot of resources to be worthwhile (namely mining corp has to grant you enough hammers).
No way, man. Corps are *not* the only reason to run FM. Free trade route is plenty reason especially if you have open international trade with a lot of civs. Additionally, having good trade with your neighbors means you don't have to actually have possession of those resources as you can trade with vassals for them if conquest or with other civs if peaceful

2. You need SP for big empires.

- This is still true though! And that's the problem. It still costs a ton of hammers in infrastructure to lower maintenance costs, and you probably wouldn't get more gold from the trade routes then you'd lose to high maintenance. And of course, you get no +10% hammers or food to workshops.
You would DEFINITELY not get more :gold: from trade routes than you'd lose to high maintenance... that's why FM is better for smaller empires and SP better for larger ones!

3. FM is good on pangaea (where you don't need SP maintenance reduction)

- Revert to earlier point about not having resources. But what's worse is on pangaea the game ends a lot faster, and so your economy stops mattering a lot sooner. As george points out on a normal pangaea map you're cuir rushing by the time you have FM open, and it's not even worth the turn of revolt even if SP/merc weren't options.
I don't think referring to canned strategies like cuir rush on pangea is a good way of looking at this, either. Again, a domination win is clearly better with SP
 
Why isn't mercantilism more popular? No foreign trade routes? I like using it for running specialist economy.
 
Why isn't mercantilism more popular? No foreign trade routes? I like using it for running specialist economy.
Don't foreign trade routes typically yield the most commerce though?
 
TLDR: The economics civics come too late, and the main issue at that point should be production not commerce.

Food for thought:

- What if Mercantilism came with Guilds? (I mean.... that is kind of where it originated... well, sort of)

- If Free Market came with banking (and slapping something on Economics to prevent it from becoming a non-useless tech if you are not playing coastal), and/or gave say, an additional % bonus to commerce (say 25% bonus) from trade routes, would its effects become too tangential, or perhaps add power and flavour into the right places? (Shameless crowd-sourcing ideas for personal mod changes :lol:)
 
Don't foreign trade routes typically yield the most commerce though?

Yes they do, that's exactly the problem with Mercantilism.


drewisfat, interesting post, makes me want to try the method you described again as I haven't done so in a long time. The use of State Property, Caste and Workshops to maximize production does need to be compared to State Property, Biology enhanced farms and whipping, however, since Biology comes at the same time as Communism.
 
I've never tried a whipping strategy with State prop and Biology. Usually, by then, the emancipation :mad: penalty is too high for whipping. Caste system hyperdrives the workshop but it's an odd situation to be able to stay away from Emancipation at the point of researching Communism and even if I can, it won't last long afterwards. I used to do the Caste/SP combo for workshops when I was playing Noble/Prince, but once I got to Monarch/Emperor, it became much harder to keep :) without Empanc that late in the game.
 
In my last two games I have gotten a GE in late medievil / early renaissance era. So thats nice I thought, Im gonna save him for Mining Inc. But when the time comes I was so busy with war that I didnt bother. Just went with SP and continue the war instead.
In both games I ended up close to domination, but not quite there, so I just teched Mass media, used the GE on UN, and voted myself king. :king:
I usually dont finish my games, so that was nice for a change. :goodjob:
 
Nationhood +Emancipation +State Property +Free Religion +war pillaging. By the time you reach SP, at least 1 AI will have Emancipation, the hit to your civ happiness requires you switching to Emancipation as well. Playing as a warmonger with SP go capture AI cities with holy shrines and spread as many religions to your cities as possible. By this time you should have extra workers. Bring those workers with the army, and has you roll thru enemy lands pillage. Pillage improvements along rivers, using workers to build watermill's. Workshops + watermills+holy shrine gold provide good income for your civ. With emancipation and free religion happiness should not be a problem. With vassals active victory by conquest or domination is a great strategy tactic. This strategy gives good gold, food and hammers. As for the government civic, rep, or US will work fine. I'm not sure how well these tips will work above monarch difficultly level, but works wonders on prince and monarch. Just my thoughts on the subject, wish to hear any and all opinions on this matter.
 
Why isn't mercantilism more popular? No foreign trade routes? I like using it for running specialist economy.

Foreign trade routes are by far the most valuable, and as a result their commerce output will almost always be greater than the raw yield you'd get from a specialist.

The only exception is in super-specialist strategies (e.g. Angkor Wat Representation Sistine Chapel priests).

The one thing trade routes can't do is provide Great Person points, but the thing is that with the extra trade route combined with the extra commerce from foreign trade routes, you could replace a cottage or two with farms while still probably being ahead commerce-wise compared to Mercantilism, and then you'd be able to run a couple of specialists and generate even more GPP.

As far as I'm concerned, unless you're constantly at war or surrounded by people like Toku who won't sign Open Borders - or, of course, isolated - Free Market will always be better than Mercantilism.
 
Foreign trade routes are by far the most valuable, and as a result their commerce output will almost always be greater than the raw yield you'd get from a specialist.

The only exception is in super-specialist strategies (e.g. Angkor Wat Representation Sistine Chapel priests).

The one thing trade routes can't do is provide Great Person points, but the thing is that with the extra trade route combined with the extra commerce from foreign trade routes, you could replace a cottage or two with farms while still probably being ahead commerce-wise compared to Mercantilism, and then you'd be able to run a couple of specialists and generate even more GPP.

As far as I'm concerned, unless you're constantly at war or surrounded by people like Toku who won't sign Open Borders - or, of course, isolated - Free Market will always be better than Mercantilism.

Thanks for the explanation. I think I might play a new Carthage+Lighthouse game to try and take full advantage of trade routes.
 
Nationhood +Emancipation +State Property +Free Religion +war pillaging. By the time you reach SP, at least 1 AI will have Emancipation, the hit to your civ happiness requires you switching to Emancipation as well. Playing as a warmonger with SP go capture AI cities with holy shrines and spread as many religions to your cities as possible. By this time you should have extra workers. Bring those workers with the army, and has you roll thru enemy lands pillage. Pillage improvements along rivers, using workers to build watermill's. Workshops + watermills+holy shrine gold provide good income for your civ. With emancipation and free religion happiness should not be a problem. With vassals active victory by conquest or domination is a great strategy tactic. This strategy gives good gold, food and hammers. As for the government civic, rep, or US will work fine. I'm not sure how well these tips will work above monarch difficultly level, but works wonders on prince and monarch. Just my thoughts on the subject, wish to hear any and all opinions on this matter.

Nationhood is for drafting rifles. If you are not drafting 3 rifles every turn, then you should be in beuracrasy or free speech. Drafting combined with slaving cannons can be very powerful. It doesnt really matter if your target also get rifles if you got a head start. You can even take on AI with infantry if you have more cities than him to draft / whip from.
 
Nationhood is for drafting rifles. If you are not drafting 3 rifles every turn, then you should be in beuracrasy or free speech. Drafting combined with slaving cannons can be very powerful. It doesnt really matter if your target also get rifles if you got a head start. You can even take on AI with infantry if you have more cities than him to draft / whip from.

Perhaps you should reread my post to understand what I was suggesting. This entire thread discussion is about which economic civic you prefer. Free market = peace time economy, State property = wartime economy. With nationhood +emancipation +state property +pillaging allows you to build and maintain a wartime economy that has momentum. In your core nation cities you draft, drafted units defend core cities. Production cities build your invasion force to capture enemy cities. As you invade you take along workers with your army. During the invasion you pillage tile improvements to gain gold. Tile improvements not on rivers that are not workshops are worked to become workshops. Tile improvements on rivers are pillaged and reworked to become watermills. Captured cities are not used for cottages, instead you reorganize them to provide good gold, food, hammers. Doing so allows captured cities to become productive to maintain momentum in your war. You draft to defend cities, build units to capture cities all the while working a wartime economy that supports itself with pillaged gold, gold from watermills, and low maintenance from state property. As stated in my previous post this strategy works great on prince/ monarch difficultly levels. How well it works above I leave to more seasoned players.
 
In your core nation cities you draft, drafted units defend core cities.

You don't need to defend cities when fighting an offensive war. Most of the time the core is just fine with the same few warriors that have been there since the beginning of time. You draft and build/whip units for offense to quickly roll over the target.
 
Mercantalism was never meant to be a long-term civic. But when the AIs unlock it they usually switch to it for a while, whereas free market gives you an extra trade route, so until severals AIs with OB switch out of mercantalism you're either not missing much or anything at all by running it.
It also comes a time where great people are still important, so your GP producing cities might make them a few turns earlier.

It's usually not worth the civic switch imo, unless you're spiritual obv or built the mids.

Still I probably use mercantalism a heck of a lot more than I do free market ;)


@Blitz
Even with a small empire you don't get that much more gold with FM than SP, if any at all. There are three things to consider that are relatively small and it's very human to just round them out or not account for them in estimating value.

- The extra trade route is overvalued. People will look at their biggest city and the top trade route and see like +8 from Persepolis and get really excited and say +8g per city, 8x7 = 56 gold zomg! Or they will take an average of the trade routes for the average city if they're smarter. But really trade routes estimations are a bit more complicated, and you should be probably taking the bottom trade route -- and A LOT of the times that bottom trade route isn't a highly priced foreign trade route, and some of your smaller cities might have no sweet trade routes at all.
- Upkeep, as already noticed FM is medium upkeep, state property is low. Again this will just mean a few GPT so we usually just don't take it into consideration, but it adds up.
- Maintenance from distance to palace. Again we assume this to be 0 for small, non-overseas nations or insanely high for large empire, but it can be a misleading dichotomy and even with a small empire getting rid of all maintenance cost from distance is a decent chunk of gold, and it saves you from dumping hammers in awkward buildings like courthouses / forbidden palace.

So even in a rather ideal set up, the peace-time economy focused civic will net you only a bit more commerce than SP. Even if you are loathe to build workshops, the +10% production should alone outweigh that consideration. After all even if you aim to be completely peaceful, than you're either putting those hammers in investments or directly into wealth / fail gold....

So this is why even in a situation the game designers clearly meant for free market to be better than SP it isn't, unless you go corporations. And then it may pass up SP, very very late into the game.


Also there was a discussion on having to swap out of caste as soon as the first AI switches to emancipation. That's hogwash. That's why you don't build your cities up to your happy cap. That's why you don't run bad ocean tiles. And if you're building a lot of workshops you city probably won't be growing super big. And beyond tempering your city growth there's many ways to get happiness at that point in the game. I suspect people don't maximize resource trading to their full benefit, like trading health resources 1 for 1 for happiness ones, going for the resources that give double perks, or just trading A to gives you two copies of B, so you can trade your first copy of B for C.
It's honestly rare for me to switch out of caste until very late, after all the AIs have it and I've already fought 1-2 breakout wars.


@ Thor a lot would make sense from a game balancing perspective. The problem is the makers tried to keep the economics civics historical. Namely there was no major economic thought (debatable for sure) until mercantilism, and in game time it wasn't that much longer until free markets became popular. So if you push free market up it would make mercantilism even more awkward, and you'd have to push that up, perhaps even more ahistorically.
I do think it's a bit weird that mercantilism doesn't give a bonus to domestic trade routes -- as that was kind of the purpose. I also agree FM having higher maintenance than SP is silly. Finally environmentalism is really, really bad. The main problem is caring about the environment hurts you and benefits everyone. So it seems really weird to me that you don't get an opinion modifier for enacting it. Also having +25% corp costs (while makes a little bit of sense) is ridiculous when 2/4 four civics ban corps, and free market gives -25% expenses.

I think something like:
Mercantilism +50% internal trade route yield at medium.
FM at low
SP at high
Environmentalism: +0% corp expense, +2 diplo opinion modifier and maybe even +1 global health.
 
@drewisfat: I just don't think that's a strong enough argument against the idea that small empires benefit more from FM. If you're only at 7 cities by the time you have access to both of these civics, there certainly aren't any small cities in your empire. If there are, you've made a critical error because your land and diplo play wasn't good enough to warrant a stop to horizontal expansion. In these cases, you're looking at several very large cities where most of them will be getting 6-8 :commerce:/turn. Additionally, I wouldn't call courthouses "awkward buildings". Any building that mitigates 50% maintenance, gives :espionage: points and access to a specialist is pretty good in my book and worth building if you have a small empire.

Given this, and the fact that you're not going to have many workshops/watermills b/c of small empire, I just don't see the value of SP with small empires. Maybe it's just me, but it just seems like the biggest and best parts of SP are pretty harshly reduced in effectiveness with small empires.
 
For what purpose is it efficient to keep your empire small? Space and military victories benefit from large empire sizes and even culture benefits form having a lot of places for temples. Larger empires have more votes for diplo victories.

I understand some cases like isolation and high difficulty(harder to break out and get land from AI after astro) forcing you to small size. But if you're at small size wouldn't you want to break out and get more land? SP bonuses to production and workshops would certainly help with that.
 
For what purpose is it efficient to keep your empire small? Space and military victories benefit from large empire sizes and even culture benefits form having a lot of places for temples. Larger empires have more votes for diplo victories.

I understand some cases like isolation and high difficulty(harder to break out and get land from AI after astro) forcing you to small size. But if you're at small size wouldn't you want to break out and get more land? SP bonuses to production and workshops would certainly help with that.
Culture is very doable with small empires. You only need 9 cities if you are going to bother with Cathedrals/Mandirs/etc in your 3 culture cities. Often, you don't even need more than 1 or 2 per city (so only 6 cities really needed). Culture can be gotten with only 1 city building those :culture: multipliers (just had an Emperor culture victory with Asoka where I only built 2 Stupas and no other cathedral type building). Usually, you put those high multiplier buildings in the city with the best :culture:/turn and use GA for Great Works in the others.

I almost always have a small to medium sized empire with a conquest victory. Rolling vassals doesn't require a particularly large empire as you don't need to keep defenders in cities after they capitulate (gift cities back or create a colony).

UN victory will always benefit from larger empires, but why bother when you could just roll over AI and get conquest? I almost never bother with UN victory unless I have had a great diplo game and it's a little late for culture push.

Additionally, if you don't have a large empire by the time SP comes along, I don't think 1:food: bonus to workshops would be what you use to expand. You would almost always use draft/whip. At that point in the game, if you take time to slow build an army, the AI will be much harder to dislodge.
 
Courthouses are a waste to build with 7 cities unless you're ORG / going espionage.
I have no doubt that you disagree with this, because you probably build the vast majority of all the infrastructure, and get all cities to size 20.

As sinimusta said if I'm at 7 cities (which I don't consider small for a lib breakout anywhos...) then I'm going to want as much production as possible. And that is going to happen by spamming workshops. IDK what you mean about "not having the time to slow build an army", I guess you're hoping people on the "slavery rules bandwagon" come to back you up, which is weird because you said earlier that you never tried late game whip yourself oO. And this would fly against your "if your cities aren't big you're misplaying" line of thought earlier, as whippers usually have smaller cities then workshoppers do.

It's also clear you've never tried spamming workshops. You can build units very quickly and before biology, kremlin, etc. You don't need to rush build when you are slow building things in a few turns. And drafting limits what you can build. It basically only makes sense in cannon wars. Regardless this isn't a battle between whipping/workshopping, its about SP > FM.
 
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