My Argument for FIN as Top Tier Trait

Problem is you're not thinking about whipping...... food heavy starts beg to be whipped, and your first target should be granaries

CHA is a solid trait to have. If you're devoid of any happiness resources (and worse if you're iso'd) +2 happy can mean a world of difference.
Conversely, if you're in a cruddy food poor, happiness poor start the +2 health isn't going to matter at all, and granaries / workers might not be very important.

I like traits that prevent you from losing hard games more than traits that help you more eaisly dominate already easy games. I think that's part of the issue with FIN: more important in easy games than hard games. Compared to Phi/IND though, PHI means you can always win Lib unless you have bad early wars. IND means you can always get to GLH/TGW/Mids which are all game saving in certain situations.

Problem is you're not thinking about whipping...... food heavy starts beg to be whipped, and your first target should be granaries

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I know what you're saying and by the numbers it's absolutely correct. However, I'm talking with the default 5 cap. When whipping, you'll grow into 4 very quickly with 2 food resources. Fast enough that the granary makes very minor gains and since I won't want to grow unhappy and lose 2 to that citizen, the granary is nearly unnecessary. Without overflow, growing from 3 citizens to 4 takes 3 turns without a granary but you'll almost always see a decent amount of overflow when whipping so it could be more like 2 turns growing into the 4 cap. Like I said, once happy cap grows (or if I'm sharing the food resources with another city), the granary becomes more important to me. It isn't optimal by the numbers but those might be needed elsewhere. If they aren't, I'll build a granary. It's not like I forgo it on purpose!

I like traits that prevent you from losing hard games more than traits that help you more eaisly dominate already easy games. I think that's part of the issue with FIN: more important in easy games than hard games. Compared to Phi/IND though, PHI means you can always win Lib unless you have bad early wars. IND means you can always get to GLH/TGW/Mids which are all game saving in certain situations.

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This is the strongest argument I've seen, yet. FIN is the 'bottom' of the top tier traits for me specifically for this. I have to start playing a few games with IND leaders to flex that muscle and see how it suits me. Up till now, IND gains were minimal as the difficulty levels allow for constructing wonders without it. But as I move up to Immortal, IND may become much more necessary to get early wonders without bonus resources.

Fippy said:

Well i guess my point mainly was, 1-2 quicker pop cos of the cheaper granaries cannot make up for other traits benefits alone

I also struggle seeing how that beats CHA i.e. so you would trade stronger units for cheaper granaries? Hmm..
Extra happy >>> extra health as well.
Missing happy cap can make certain maps much more difficult, it's even questionable if the cheaper granaries help you much in this case.
Rating Exp above Cha would not cross my mind too.

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Yep, I forgot two things: (1) Charismatic has an innate +1 , in addition to the Monument happiness; (2) Charismatic units may be stronger, but more importantly (for me) their units heal 25% faster, and secure March fairly quickly.

I also forgot Spiritual in my original list.

So, again for me:

1. Philosophical/Industrious
2. Expansive/Charismatic
3. Financial/Creative
4. Spiritual
5. Organized
6. Imperialistic
7. Aggressive/Protective

Spoiler :

Financial up 1 in easier games with long rivers, and pre-planned Space attempts.

Creative goes up 1 when you are boxed in.

Spiritual up 2 in difficult games, with religious zealots. It goes up 1 when paired with the Philosophical trait (i.e. Gandhi).

Imperialistic goes up 2 on Pangaea.

Protective goes up 2–3 in difficult games, with warmonger neighbors.

Organized goes up 1 on water heavy maps.

Aggressive is the perfect trait for Shaka, due to early Granaries + Ikhanda silliness.

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blitzkrieg1980 said:

I know what you're saying and by the numbers it's absolutely correct. However, I'm talking with the default 5 cap. When whipping, you'll grow into 4 very quickly with 2 food resources. Fast enough that the granary makes very minor gains and since I won't want to grow unhappy and lose 2 to that citizen, the granary is nearly unnecessary. Without overflow, growing from 3 citizens to 4 takes 3 turns without a granary but you'll almost always see a decent amount of overflow when whipping so it could be more like 2 turns growing into the 4 cap. Like I said, once happy cap grows (or if I'm sharing the food resources with another city), the granary becomes more important to me. It isn't optimal by the numbers but those might be needed elsewhere. If they aren't, I'll build a granary. It's not like I forgo it on purpose!

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Once a Granary is built, 1 = 2 , and the ratio is even better when whipping with small cities (at size 2/3/4 etc.). A food heavy site will run into happiness problems, but your second and third cities will generally be set up to share its food. This, combined with carefully managed Worker/Settler builds to maximize OF, justify Granary builds. E.g. in a food rich site:


^^^ all generate more than 30H of overflow, which will go back into early units/buildings/wonders.

blitzkrieg1980 said:

I have to start playing a few games with IND leaders to flex that muscle and see how it suits me. Up till now, IND gains were minimal as the difficulty levels allow for constructing wonders without it. But as I move up to Immortal, IND may become much more necessary to get early wonders without bonus resources.

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The other big advantage of Industrious is that the +50% hammers boost is a huge economic boost when you fail wonders.

If, for example, you put 30 of overflow into Stonehenge, this will generate 45 when an AI builds the wonder. That may sound insignificant, but the gold comes at a point in the game when you cannot build Wealth or Research, and the economy is getting hard hit by early expansion.

Now, imagine that at about 500 BC you have Aesthetics. A city with a Forge, Organized Religion, Marble, and an Industrious leader, gets a 200% boost to all hammers invested in a wonder. So 1 = 3 . Or one Forest chop = 90 . This, coupled with early access to the best wonders, makes it very easy to win Liberalism.

A food heavy site will run into happiness problems, but your second and third cities will generally be set up to share its food.

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As I previously said, if I set up a 2 resource city for food sharing, I prioritize a granary. In some situations, you don't need to share food and in those, I'll spend my on other things early on. Once happy cap goes up or I need to share food, granaries are prioritized. I knew the numbers ahead of time, but like I said, if I have multiple food resources, the 60 for granary can be put off till later if I have other things I need to build now (units/wonder/settler/worker)

As for IND, I get all the numbers, I just never needed the bonus on the diff levels I played to get early wonders. Fail gold returns are always better with IND but I often get fail gold without it as well. I'm starting a game as an IND leader tonight to feel the benefits instead of just reading the #s . I've played as IND leaders before, but never really leveraged the wonder bonus b/c I usually skipped wonders for expansion and units.

EDIT: Actually, the IND wonder bonus becomes weaker as you gain access to multiplier resources, forges, and OR. The gain is a straight 50% without access to any of that stuff. But the gain from IND in the scenario you describe (100% resource bonus, 25% forge, 25% OR) is only 20%.
Example:
chop = 30 + 50% for only IND = 45 vs the 30 raw. Net gain is 45/30 = 50% gain
chop = 30 + 200% bonuses with IND = 90 vs 30 + 150% bonuses without IND = 75. Net gain is 90/75 = 20% gain

Doshin said:

So, again for me:

1. Philosophical/Industrious
2. Expansive/Charismatic
3. Financial/Creative
4. Spiritual
5. Organized
6. Imperialistic
7. Aggressive/Protective

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SPI is definately not 2 tiers below Expansive, it's on par with FIN and Creative should be one tier lower. Just think of all of those tech-trades you get with SPI, or the possibility to switch between Buro / Nationalism or Slavery / Caste.

Lists are fun, so..

Ind + Phi
Cha + Spi
Fin + Exp
Cre + Org
Imp + Agg
Prot

I may be sentimental about SPI, but let me explain
Caste and Slavery are 2 powerful Civics in 1 category and SPI helps using both.
Similar but less meaningful are Paci and OR. With Paci + Caste and OR + Slavery working together really well too.
If i now add the basic saved turns like switching into Slavery early, and temples being good happy cap buildings at 40h..and diplo..yep i think SPI can stay there ~~

Definitely agree on Spiritual The freedom to switch civics at key times/any time is sweet. And think about later on when you are producing solid hammers and beakers...then think about how you did not lose a turn of all that empire wide. Yeah we try to time civic switches to GAs, but those are not always guaranteed. A temp switch to caste early on can get you that first GA faster. The flexibility of anarchy free switches is pretty huge. Not to mention the diplomat factor as well

As for temples you are pretty much certain to have religions except in ISO. A free happy for about a chop is very nice

drewisfat said:

Problem is you're not thinking about whipping...... food heavy starts beg to be whipped, and your first target should be granaries

CHA is a solid trait to have. If you're devoid of any happiness resources (and worse if you're iso'd) +2 happy can mean a world of difference.
Conversely, if you're in a cruddy food poor, happiness poor start the +2 health isn't going to matter at all, and granaries / workers might not be very important.

I like traits that prevent you from losing hard games more than traits that help you more eaisly dominate already easy games. I think that's part of the issue with FIN: more important in easy games than hard games. Compared to Phi/IND though, PHI means you can always win Lib unless you have bad early wars. IND means you can always get to GLH/TGW/Mids which are all game saving in certain situations.

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If you want a trait that will help salvage a bad start and tough game, I'd say aggressive and creative are probably the best traits for that job. Agg helps you with a super early war against your neighbour when you've been blocked off the mainland on a peninsula with room for 2-3 cities. Or, if you're really getting boxed in with bad land creative could help you break out of that box and possibly even flip some cities.
IND isn't worth much when your start is production poor, and PHI isn't worth much when your start is food poor.

I don't see CRE as being very helpful if you are boxed into bad land. It just lets you claim a few more tiles of bad land. Now being CRE while boxed into great land is a different story. As for AGG, it only really helps if you have metal in your start, specifically copper since it will be tough getting to iron early enough on higher levels (with bad land) to rush a neighbor who has a better start.

For the purposes of this debate, what are we talking about when we say a "bad start"? Are we talking low production? Low food? No riverside? No wonder-bonus resources? All 4 combined would make for a dismal start and a rare one in my experience. There's usually at least 1 of these 4 happening in most starts. Besides, with low production and low food alone, you're going to have a hard time getting those AGG units out. I usually value AGG more with a high production/food start and a close neighbor.

I already made my argument for why FIN helps in the 4-way-bad-starts as long as you have at least a few green tiles to work or even a couple lake/coastal seafood. However, in such a situation, PHI would help more b/c even with 'low' food, you can still feed 2 scientists and getting 100% bonus to GPP will really help for tech trading and/or beelining Construction for catapults. IND would be a help b/c having more fail will only help you and you can get to Oracle even with mediocre production. An Oracle beeline to CoL or MC can help cope with most bad starts.

Additionally, with CHA you have higher caps and faster promoted troops which tops AGG in my book when you are boxed in although less so than with the other 3 described above. Although, I suppose an argument could be made for fast barracks combined with AGG free promotion, but without metals, it is pretty useless whereas CHA has faster promotions for all units.

If you're boxed in, most of the traits aren't going to be good as most of them get better with the more cities you have. However Agg could help you a lot more in such cases.

Not if you don't have metal. CHA would be much better IMO as all units get faster promotions instead of just bonus combat for melee. If you're boxed in with poor land, you may not have copper but possibly horse. HA rushing is much better with CHA leader than AGG (obviously). You might not have any strategic resources. In this case, you may be better off with PHI for a fast GS, bulb Maths, beeline Construction and catarcher attack your neighbor. Or IND for fast Oracle > CoL switch to CS for the same. Such things have been pulled off successfully before. Granted, these start situations probably merit a map regen.

AGG is just bad unless you're Shaka
If only helps in sword rushes, which is really a strategy of last resort. And even then, IMP probably helps sword rushes more than AGG, with faster city to claim metal, and then you gain your first GG in the middle of the first war to spread out on troops for promos.

I know why noto rates AGG/CRE highly though, they are both more important in KMOD

In fact CRE is a top tier trait replacing FIN in kmod.

I think CRE isn't getting enough love here though. Really tier 4? ORG territory? It might be an easy to use "noob" trait, but that doesn't mean it's not good. Not having to worry about having food in the first ring opens up a lot of more efficient city spots. Being able to block AIs, being able to settle aggressively at AIs, being able to win tiles instead of lose tiles from border tension are all very important. I feel it's just hard to tangibly evaluate. But usually you're going to get at least an extra city and some extra resources -- not to mention that you're denying these from a neighboring AI. I don't see how that is not very significant. It's not uncommon to flip cities even from deity AIs.
Libraries are a crucial building you're going to build a lot of, so there's some obvious hammer savings built in there as well.

The real power of creative though is with espionage economy. Cultural influence on a target AI is obviously important. There's also synergy with TGW. Obviously with TGW you don't need spawn busters, which means barb cities are more likely to spawn by you. Place a CRE city next to the barb city: wait til you gain a free city. Can usually net 1-2 free cities a game.

How is ORG not higher though? 50% less civic costs, half cost courthouses and factories!

Id put ORG above FIN and SPI. Cre / Org and Exp / Org are the best.

Civic costs aren't usually that high and Courhouses are buildings one builds either very late, or not at all / only in specific cities. Factories, I don't even reach in more than 50% of my games.

ORG makes an economy better that is already good, but not like FIN which can make an economy good that would otherwise be bad.

Well it depends. If you have a small-medium sized empire and can work a reasonable amount of commercial tiles, financial will probably come out ahead.

But sometimes you can't work a lot of commerce tiles, for whatever reason, and financial is less valuable then. Also, if you're able to secure a large empire with large cities, ORG will come out ahead.

Though I do see Seraiel's point - at that point you're probably already winning, so what's the use? Personally, I like the ORG trait in war heavy games, like with JC or Hammurabi, when I'm doing a lot of early warring. It helps me recover quickly without needing to focus on working cottages.

I always used to hear that civic upkeep costs would become your most expensive burden and that courthouses should be built in all your cities on this forum.

At this point I'm just amazed how people can possibly manage deity upkeep costs without courthouses.

bhavv said:

I always used to hear that civic upkeep costs would become your most expensive burden and that courthouses should be built in all your cities on this forum.

At this point I'm just amazed how people can possibly manage deity upkeep costs without courthouses.

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Depends a lot on the map I guess - on Archipelago or Continents with low sea level you'll probably need Courthouses early. On other Continent maps or Pangea you'll often be having only five or six cities close together for the first few millenia and those don't need Courthouses. You need them when you start conquering your first five or six cities, but at this point sometimes research doesn't matter much more anyways and you can just whip everything into units for Dominiation. So yes, I do build Courthouses semi-regularly, but more around 1000-1200 AD and not right when I discover Code of Laws.

ORG could help with spy points if you want to utilize espionage. One of the stronger espionage strats is Gilgamesh/Early GW/Priesthood where Gilgamesh gets early access to Ziggeraut. ORG means fast courthouses so, although not the same, it is a similar effect if you want to go the espionage route. But this is, in and of itself, not an endorsement for ORG trait as I agree it is a lower tier trait. Courthouses become more important, in my opinion, on larger/non-Pangaea maps and when role-playing (not going for most efficient/earliest wins).

You can almost always work commerce tiles. I'd, personally, lay down 2-3 cottages (even on non-riverside grassland) to help fund my expansion than have to deal with a potential negative income at 0%

Yes you can always work some cottages, but it's not always ideal

1. IND/PHI
2. FIN
3. CHA/CRE/ORG
4. EXP/IMP
5. AGG
6. PRO

AGG Gets +2 if shaka (UU and UB both affected by this; I don't think anyone else has such synergy.. are any of the monument UB people CHA?)
CHA gets +1 if iso
FIN gets +1 on lower difficulties
PHI gets +1 to all-on-its-own 0 tier if high difficulty
PHI gets -1 if iso'd (no trades eats a lot into its usefulness)
PHI gets -3 if newb. It's a chore to learn to use this skill well. I played multiple iso games before I finally bulbed astro after learning the hierarchy of bulbs.
PRO gets +1 if bordering Shaka, Napoleon and Alexander, though it's not like it will really save anything.
PRO gets +2 if "EE" and no stone. Kind of wasted if you do have stone, as castle and walls aren't particularly expensive with stone.
EDIT: ORG gets +1 on water-heavy maps (lighthouses significantly more important, games more likely to make it to factories, games more likely to have expensive colonies requiring more courthouses)