SGOTM 21 - Fifth Element

Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 21 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

You can find the Game Details in the first posts of the Maintenance Thread. If any changes occur in the game settings or rules, they will be posted in that thread.

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Good luck with the game, and - Have Fun!

SGOTM 21​

Your starting area
Click for a full size image

You will play as Pericles of Greece.
You are good friends with Willem of Oranje, the leader of the Dutch +3 Diplo. You are in contact with him from the start and you will be on the same continent. For years he has made fun of you for being a bookworm and more interested in discussing arts and politics with old men than everything else. He himself is a total party animal and skirt chaser. Now the time has come to beat him in his own game:

Win the heart of the most prominent women of the world, all three female leaders, before you reach a victory condition of your choice.

That's the plan. But how do you 'win the heart' of a leader? Willem knows about your plan, but he's a good sportsman and willing to help you master the arts of male/female interaction. On condition you pay all the bills, he will accompany you on a series of training parties during which you will discover different options to charm the three ladies. He has met them and has a few good ideas about what they might like. You can ask him a total of ten questions, each will cost you 100 gold or two workers to work off your bills.

Purchasing Information
Willem will only sell information if his opinion of you is +1 or better.
You may not trade techs with Willem the same turn that you purchase information.
Information is purchased with a cash gift via diplomacy screen, or by moving workers into his capital and gifting them by the interface button.

As your training sessions get increasingly advanced, the bills will start to climb as well. So each time you buy information, you have to scratch one payment option from this list of 20.

Example: If you purchased the first two pieces of information with gold (50 and 75), you will have the choice to pay with either 1 worker or 100 gold for the third purchase. If you chose the 1 worker option, the next choice will be between 2 workers or 100 gold and so on.

------------
Note that you may still purchase multiple pieces of information in the same transaction and/or on the same turn.

1) He can tell you, roughly, where to find the three female leaders. (This will be general directions only)
2) The three ways to win Elizabeth's heart.
3) The three ways to win Isabella's heart.
4) The three ways to win Catherine’s heart.

You need to fulfill only one task for each lady, but some will be easier than others and some may need a long time to finish. So you better get to know them early. It is very well possible that some of these tasks may become impossible to fulfill during the game, by your actions or those of others. But there is at least one way to win each heart that can't be blocked. Obviously, it won't be the fastest or easiest.

If Willem’s civilization gets destroyed you are allowed to ask any other male leader for advice, but it will cost you triple the gold or workers.
If a female leader gets dethroned you can't win her heart anymore; but if you already fulfilled a task for her this won't matter. You may declare war on anyone at any time, even Willem or the ladies.

You may never 'beg' from Willem, same goes with any other leader if you ever buy info from him in case because Willem was defeated. If you pay your bills by gifting workers you have to move them into the player’s capital first, to stop you from stealing them back at once.

The overall difficulty level is immortal, but some AIs have slightly altered starts and so do you: We added a worker to your starting units to allow a quick start. As requested by you, we have revealed the area around the starting position to mitigate the effect of unlucky turn zero scouting and to allow you to plan a ahead.

Game Options
Ancient Era Start
Normal Speed
No Vassals
No Goody Huts
No Events
Normal Barbs
All Victory Conditions Enabled

Map size Standard
9 Opponents
Normal Barbs
Map: Modified custom continents
Difficulty: Immortal
=================================

Timetable
The completion deadline will be May 8. Plan your game, and please avoid a last minute struggle to meet the deadline.
Please be warned, except in the event of cosmic catastrophes. THERE WILL BE NO DEADLINE EXTENSIONS.

Team Rules*

Required

• Read the various rule threads posted by AlanH.
  [*]Before playing every single turnset, verify that your ini file has the autosave interval set to 1.
  [*]Before playing every single turnset, verify that the BUFFY log is enabled.
• After uploading your save file, post BOTH the CivFanatics log (displayed on the upload confirmation web page) and the BUFFY log.
• No reloads! We get one shot, no replays, period!
• No reading other team threads. The easiest way to do this is to use the thread tools to subscribe to this thread. You could also bookmark the thread.
• When looking at the save, do not perform any irreversible action. Do not move units, whip, or trade.
• The flying camera exploit is banned.
• If the game crashes, stop and PM AlanH with the details of what happened. Wait for instructions from AlanH before proceeding.
• Do not open auto saves except to recover from a crash.
• Stop and ask the team for advice if a new opportunity presents itself.
• Stop and ask the team if anything goes wrong.
• Have fun!

Strongly Recommended

• Make manual saves often, preferably every turn, at the beginning and end of the turn, in case we need to review diplomacy screens or other metrics.
• Pause the game before uploading or examining it.
• Put TEST flags on the map on test games, and name test games so it's obvious they aren't the real game.
• Let us know if you are unable to make a deadline, get too busy in real life, or are going offline for vacation.
• Do not automate workers.
• Do not use city governors.
• Do not leave units on goto orders.
• Have fun!

Etiquette

• Active participation -- Your contribution to every set is important, even if it's an 'I agree.' Although everyone might have real life issues sometimes, it's courteous to notify the team of your absence.
• Pre-Play Plan -- The spirit of succession games is to play the game following the consensus of the team decision. Therefore the player who is UP should post a clear plan for discussion. Guidelines have been posted for the contents of your plan in the next post. It might be that the team decides to head in a direction you were opposed to, it does not mean you are wrong but rather that the team believes the odds of winning are more likely with the decided approach.
• Timing -- We will stick to a schedule in order to complete this game within the 3 month ironcast deadline. It is still important to reach consensus and ensure quality of play.
  -An "Initial PPP" should be posted within 24 hours of the previous submission. After 24 hours, ANY player is open to posting an Initial PPP for team debate. Getting the debate going is sometimes the biggest delay as everyone may be waiting for a specific person to post the Initial PPP.
  -Game must be played within 48 hours of team consensus, otherwise ANY available player can post a "SUB" and immediately play the set
  -A "WILL PLAY" must be announced by the next rostered player, after the team consensus to 24 hours after a save is submitted. Otherwise YOU WILL BE SKIPPED.
  -Some sets will take much longer than others. If the UP player cannot play within 48 hrs of consensus due to RL issues, please inform the team early.
• Please, please, please include a report when you submit the save, complete with the CivFanatics log AND the BUFFY log. You may submit your report later but it would be preferable to have it before the discussion on the next set starts.
• Finish all your discussed turns and upload the game saved at the END of the discussed part.
• Don’t be afraid to post things that may appear stupid or evident. Each player has strengths and weaknesses. There are numerous examples in the earlier SGOTM threads when the most simple rule has been unknown to players (such as the difference between peace treaty and cease fire). Don’t be afraid that other members will think you are stupid.
• Don’t play intoxicated (from alcohol, drugs or smoke). Don’t play when you are too tired. Don't play when your kids or spouse are talking to you.
• Respect your team mates, and demand their respect. Take care of your writing style. Accept that people whose first language is not English will use English in a different way than you are used to. Disagree by all means, but don't make it personal, and don't take it personally.
• Use smilies and emoticons in your posts. Jokes, humor, sarcasm, and offensive language can be misinterpreted, except when I am making them, when I will expect everyone to laugh!!
• Remember that a lot of players read what we post. Don't be rude or disrespectful to any player not on our team.
• SG's are team games. Be a good team member. Post your ideas, argue your case, and encourage and praise your team mates. Don't be afraid to post in our game thread. That is what it's for.
• Have fun!

Turn Sets

There are 7 major parts to every set.

1. Initial Pre-Play Plan: see below.
2. Voting: everyone voices his or her opinion on the issues raised in 1.
3. Plan: see below.
4. Critique of the Plan: once the Plan is posted, players should try/read the plan and look for anything they'd like to change. This is where you must support your arguments!
5. Final Plan: tries to glue everything together.
6. Play the Set: see below.
7. Post the Report: see below

What is the Initial Pre-Play Plan?

The Pre-Play Plan is to initiate the discussion on the diverging possibilities at the start of a set. This includes, but not limited to, EP focus, general city micro, general worker micro, general techs. Basically, make an idea of what you want to do with your 10/15 turns.

Below are general ideas as to what you can cover with the pre-play plan. Not everything needs to be discussed, only the obvious decision points. If others feel that other missing issues should be raised, then the debate after the Initial PPP is the time to do it!

1. Technologies

• What techs are you aiming for? (One, a beeline ex. Literature, part-research for trading)
• What trades will you attempt with who and when? (When to sell for gold ex. first opportunity or wait for more, specify the leader(s), waiting for a wonder to finish so the AI get failure gold)
• Are we planning a Great Person bulb?

2. Dealing with AIs

• Resource trade negotiations
• Espionage assignment
• Open borders (cancel or allow)
• AI demands (resources, cancel trades, who do we send packing or not, technologies, war, religions, civics)

3. City placement and builds - mostly in the beginning

• Where are you planning on sending a settler?
• Are you sending a worker along?
• Is the land fogbusted/do we have an escort?
• Initial city builds (Monument/Granary etc...)
• Tile improvements around this city (food, hammers, commerce)

4. General micro

• Special tile assignments (starve city for specialists, switch to growth, etc.)
• Tile swapping with other cities
• Whips
• Build order (infrastructure/military/settlers/workers/wealth/science)
• Dealing with happy/health caps
• Worker improvements and moves

5. Civics and religion

• Are you planning on civic switches/do we need to acquire the techs? (Caste for border pops, slavery for whip...)
• Are we expecting a religion change?

6.War - if applicable

• Refuse/accept AI war demands
• Bribing civs to declare war or for stopping war
• War plan (who, how many units and how to acquire them, which cities to strike, scouting prior to DoW...)

7. Bigger picture

• Gifts (city, gold, techs...)
• What AI do we try to please
• Goals for the future
• Diplo manipulation
• Extras

What your Plan should cover:

The plan must contain 2 detailed parts:

1. What you will check for every turn (EP, trades available, GPT available, etc.) [this is easy].
2. Turn-by-turn worker moves, city micromanagement, unit movement and or general guidelines as to what we can't control via test game [this is the hard part].

The team will almost certainly decide to slack on #2 once the game becomes well in hand, but for the first 100 turns this is expected.

How your set should go:

• Play according to the plan
• If something unexpected (or an opportunity) comes up, STOP AND CHECK WITH THE TEAM.
• If you have to adapt, do so!
• You can add markers in game during and at the end of your set. It's a lot easier on team members to figure where units are going.

What your set report should cover:

• WHEOOHRN alerts and possible/likely targets
• Great Generals and Great Engineers in distant lands
• Religions founded
• Wonders built
• When to renegotiate trades
• What you were planning for the future
• How the plan worked out/didn't
• Anything unexpected
• Remember to post BOTH the CivFanatics log (found on the upload confirmation screen) and the BUFFY log.

*Copied from neilmeister, Apostrophes SGOTM 19, which was itself liberally copied from various team threads in previous SGOTM games.

References and useful links:

• Civ4 SGOTM Progress page
• BTS 3.13 tech tree
• CFC On-line Civilopedia
• Civilization Modiki
• Useful Civ data files from kossin
• HoF dates for different Victory Conditions
• Great People bulbing order. See GPbulbs.pdf for compact format.
• Great People bulbing and trade mission value
• Trade route rules and examples (see posts 76 and 80)
• Barbarian spawning and behavior. Example screenie.
• Diplomatic relations modifiers
• AI DoW logic
• AI personalities
• AI attitudes
• AI behavior (Kossin)
• spiceant's "Diplomatic Victory" post
• TMIT's Guide to UN Victories
• The Power of Sushi
• Duckweed's Guide to Spaceship Victory
• Yxklyx's "Apostolic Palace Guide"
• OSS/RRRaskolnikov SGOTM13 Ref list (Includes VOU's Religion spread)
• Anion's BTS manual (what the official manual should have been)
• Stuporstar's "Comprehensive Guide to Terrain, Improvements, Resources, and City Placement"
• The Inner Workings of the Demographics Screen Explained
• Difficulty level information
• Complete Espionage Mission Cost Guide
• Espionage Economy vs. Manual Research
• Tachywaxon's Slave Economy
• Civ Illustrated #1 (Know Your Enemy) (a useful guide to AI leader behavior)
• The Culture through Espionage discussion thread
  Beg rules

Test Games, Dot Maps, and Spreadsheets

• Instructions to make World Builder/test games
  
• Micro Spreadsheet

Roster and Order of play

Please check in when the player before you is finishing his/her turnset. Let us know if you are poised to take the next turnset or if you will be passing. If you have been quiet up to that point, we prefer to not have to wait 24-48 hours to see if you are not passing by absentia.


zbgayumn Up
NobleZarkon lurking
enKage On deck
Jenarie (withdrawn)
astre lurking
Blubmuz lurking
pigswill
shulec
The orders was determined by the order that people checked in, with myself last. If anyone wants to be moved up or down, let me know.

General thoughts

Hey guys, lets put together a smart, well thought out, fun game. We can be as intense or relaxed as we want to be. It all really comes down to the current player and the feedback the team gives when not playing. Here are a few general things I would like to mention.

Pre-Play Plan (PPP)
I personally like to put together a very detail oriented PPP. It helps me to get a good feel of the current game situation, and more specifically helps the team to identify the strong points about of the plan and mistakes/incorrect impressions and to provide specific detailed and broad strokes suggestions. I don't personally use spread sheets and don't really want to get into using them. However, I have seen them used very effectively and in a very time efficient manner to run tests. I am a huge fan of test games, and rely on them heavily in forming my PPP.

You are up!
Please check in when the player before you is finishing his/her turnset. Let us know if you are poised to take the next turnset or if you will be passing. If you have been quiet up to that point, we prefer to not have to wait 24-48 hours to see if you are not passing by absentia.
If you will require more than 24-48 hours to get a PPP in place, offer a general PPP and a timetable for when you will have detailed PPP. Let your teammates know when you are doing what, such as when you plan to play. Life happens, so we will understand delays.
There will be no strict guidelines as to when you have to get your turnset started and finished. If real life is taking more of your time than you want and is limiting your availability, ask to be bumped down the rotation or end your turnset. Communicating your intentions toward the team is respectful and helpful!

Test Games
I love test games!! I just said it and will say it again. I love test games!! (But for SGOTM only!) They help tremendously in determining if my turnset ideas will work well or if they are wrong. For example, if I want to tech something to trade to trade a single trade partner. I want to trade an AI for engineering, but then find out I can't trade education because the target AI doesn't have paper. If I didn't realize this before I played it in the test game, I sure will after it, before playing the turnset. Test games are a great tool, but they can be misleading, so it must be used carefully. They are also a huge pain in the neck to keep up with. They can be damaging to a turnset if they are inaccurate. I have become quite good at getting the test games to match the real game. We will not use it for the whole game, but I'd like to try to maintain it for quite a while. I suspect we will not be warmongering early on (THANK YOU, JESUS!!!) This will make it more valuable for a longer period.

Test Game Maintenance
I ask that the player who finishes playing a few turns or turnset, replay the turns on the test game, as close to the real game as possible. PLEASE UPLOAD TWO TEST GAME SAVES TO THE THREAD, THE TURN BEFORE THE CURRENT TURN AND THE TURN 2 TURNS PRIOR TO THE CURRENT TURN. The test game will not match the real game on the current turn (after the first 2-3 turnsets) so it is usually not helpful to sync the test and real games. Please point out any errors I have created in the test games so I can fix them if possible. If anyone else is good at test games, please help! If you don't want to use the test game, no problem, but please play out your turns on the test game as soon as possible after finishing your turnset, or if pausing your turnset for PPP revision.

Spreadsheets
If anyone uses them, great!!! Let me know if anyone can help with them and please make them available for all to use.

Turnset management
Turnsets are generally around 10 turns. Detailed planning for more turns is often a waste of time while at the same time general planning for 20-30 turns when creating a PPP is helpful. Turnsets can be played and passed after as few as 2-3 turns or as many as 15-18+ turns (especially early in the game).

Uploading Saves

Per the maintenance thread:
Please upload saves at these points:
Whenever ownership of official save changes (i.e. use server for exchanging saves unless it is unavailable)
Before and after "paying" Willem
Before and after wooing a Leader
Turns 60 115 145 170 190 205 225 240 260

Additionally:
Please upload the save at any "pausing" points. These are intermediary point in your turnset, but before the end of the turnset.
Please upload at any point where you have questions for the team.

Deviations from the PPP
The best laid plans will almost always need to be altered. Make decisions and proceed based on what you think is best for minor alterations, but for anything that you think is a major decision. Pause, upload, then consult the team/forum. As painful as it may be, GIVE 24 HOURS FOR ALL TEAM MEMBERS TO RESPOND PRIOR TO MOVING ON!

If you don't understand
Please ask for clarification on any points or recommendations that you do not understand. I often assume that everyone knows the game mechanics to the same degree as I do, so I may not be clear on why I suggest something. I also tend to think I know everything, so if I am wrong, and don't get questioned, I will make mistakes. I have a tendency to "nitpick". I will try to limit my pointing out mistakes to situations where something can be learned from it or if it can be corrected. Try not to take feedback personally. I learned the most from mabraham and bcool shredding my PPPs and in-game play back in Kakumeika days.

Game mechanics, code readers
There are some great resources at the bottom of my first post with many detailed game mechanics. Are there any code readers in the group? If so, they can be integral in helping us make tough decisions. If not, we always have the test game.

Addendum

Please set your Graphics setting on the main options screen to check "detailed city info". This tells how many turns until finishing build and how many turns until city growth. This is beneficial for screenshots.

Please set the following options in the Buffy setting (Ctrl-Alt-O):
Under the scoreboard tab under "Power Ratio", set the ratio decimal places to "3".
Under the clock tab, uncheck "alternate game clock" and uncheck "completed percentage" while checking "complete turns" and "game date and golden age turns".

When referring to tiles in relation to another tile, please us a number for each direction such as 2S1E, as opposed to stating 2SE. 2SE could be interpreted as 2S1E or 2S2E.

When referring to a specific date/turn, please refer to the turn number, not the date. (feel free to add the date with the turn number.)

When referring to a turn when a unit or building/wonder is completed, please state the turn that the unit is produced and ready to move, or for buildings/wonders, state the turn that the build queue announces that a building/wonder is completed and a new build needs to be chosen.

Game Summary

Turnset #1 zbgayumn: T0-T13 Settle Bachelor pad, research fishing, mining. Met Shaka.
Turnset #2 enKage: T13-T29 Research BW. Settled 2nd city Gemini. WvO lands visible.
Turnset #3 pigswill: T29-T42 Research Wheel, Sailing. Settle city 3, Mr. Shine by cows/gems/crabs. Build warriors for Fogbust net. Two gems mined and roaded.
Turnset #4 shulec: T42-T60 Research Masonry, AH. Start TGL. Mine gems and Pasture pigs by Shine. Whip settler in Gemini. Settle city 4 by deer. Workboats for exploration embark. TGL slated to finish T60.
Turnset #5 zbgayumn: T60-T69 Research Alphabet. Settle Zoo City by Horse/Fur/Deer/Whale. Prep to settle fish Island (city 6). Trade Alpha to WvO for Archery, Pottery.
Turnset #6 enKage: T69-T83 Research Currency, IW. Settle Rocky with three fish, Claimin'Spice with three clams. Shaka is Fist mode. Shaka is Jewish, breaking up the love fest. Great Merchent born.
Turnset #7 pigswill: T83-T94 Buildup defenses because Shake is in Fist mode. Buy clues.
Turnset #8 shulec: T94-T109 Get Liz friendly.

Looking forward to taking part with old team mates and new.

Test map attached, would be grateful if someone could double check it before I start testing, my old eyes aren't what they were!

Good luck everyone! Enjoy the game and I hope you'll be interesting test subjects

Edit:


Ladys and tasks

Elizabeth ("Elizabeth wants to be treated like the queen she is. You need to impress her with unique status symbols, like...")
a) Rename the proudest ship ever to sail the oceans after her and gift it to her (needs at least 50xp to be worthy)
b) Build a huge statue of her and celebrate it with the biggest party of all time (construct The Colossus, Christo Redentor or The Statue of Liberty during a Golden Age that has at least 11 turns left at time of completion)(not the whole construction needs to happen during the GA, just the completion) done here
c) Bring her all the luxuries of the world (gift her at the same time: Gold, silver, gems, ivory, fur, pearls(clam), wine and silk. If she already has some, ignore these.)

Isabella ("Isabella is all into romantic gestures. My first suggestion to win her heart would be...")
a) Have the most brilliant minds of your time explain to her that your love is pure, true and eternal (bring one artist, scientist and prophet to her capital and gift them to her)
b) Build her a luxurious summer residence (Gift her a city built on desert and next to the coast or an oasis that has an Odeon, a Grocer and a Castle), you must be at +3 relations with her when you gift this city. done here
c) Invent a whole new style of music to express your love and let the whole world hear it (Construct Rock N Roll and gift all Singles away for free, or gift Singles to all players alive)

Catherine ("Catherine's heart has to be conquered. You will have to prove your might to her by...")
a) Take control of the worlds most important resources: Control 4 aluminum, 6 uranium and 10 oil resources (control = have inside your borders and connected to your trade network)
b) Prove your might with a military parade in her honor (have the following units in her capital at the same time: 12 armored units, 4 air units and 12 gunpowder units, commanded by a general (unconnected)) done here
c) Be the first to get a serious Space Program running (be the first to complete Apollo Program and build three parts of the spaceship, your choice)

Payment options used:
50 gold
75 gold
100 gold
133 gold
166 gold
200 gold
250 gold
300 gold

Hi all! Greetings to teammates new and old! I'm expecting good times over the next four months

NobleZarkon said:

Looking forward to taking part with old team mates and new.

Test map attached, would be grateful if someone could double check it before I start testing, my old eyes aren't what they were!

Click to expand...

You have two tundra tiles that shouldn't be there. The one 1S of the settler is just a grass forest and the one 1E of the deer is a grass hill forest.

I have a test file as well. I think there's a misplaced Incense resource, but it won't affect the first 50+ turns.

I can also go one step further and say that I think 1S is the fastest start on this map. What became immediately obvious in testing was that the hardest puzzle is making the best use of the worker we've been given. If you SIP, the worker can't do anything for 5 turns. If you go for the Wheat, you have to research Ag, which is ~8 turns. Going 1S and getting a camp on the deer immediately is the best play I can see.

Hey

As for discussion about the map, there is a slight dofference here between the fastest and the best, meaning the best offers better potential and less maintanace without moving capital later and allows grabing more land leaving peninsula unsettled for long time.

But this I will take care of later in the weekend.


First I should mention is my ability to take sets xD

As stated earlier, I could not fully participate all the time, but dont worry, I will be here very often and make noise disagreeing with everyone (yep, like Sokrates I will ask, ask ask so long as you find the right answers).

My January and 1 week of Feb is finally buying own flat instead of changing flats every few months, so I will have some things to do. I can do some testing, aactive participate and so on, but probably I could not take forst or 2nd set.
Later should be better unless we have hot spring in PL.

About my 24h cycle - I tend to be most active during nights, what means about 3-4 am, time zone CE so it is universal time +1 or +2, I never know this xD. Probably the same as the rest european union except UK and Portugal

I used the picture posted in the announcement thread to make a dotmap. Probably too soon but couldn't resist doing SOMETHING. I messed with the test for a few turns too but wasn't really sure what I was testing after the initial few moves - depends how we tech - so stopped.



Not really a fan of red as it seems too... wet?

I was thinking use the first worker move to scout green star or deer space which would show us a couple ocean tiles to see if there's anything hiding down there which would make it worth moving south to catch it. Assuming not, my first choice for capital is purple which leaves a pretty good city site for second or third city on blue and another up north to catch the rest of the gems depending what we see in a few more scout moves.

City seemed to pop really fast so assuming we move worker green star then deer to scout then he only rests a couple turns before we'd get pop and he can start building camp on the deer. If we decide to go either mining or agriculture the worker made it back up there after making camp pretty much just as we got the tech so overall it works. I think.

Noticed Phlanx (axeman) is our special unit so not sure if we want to rush to copper to get axes fast or go for growth etc but I think starting city depends partly on overall tech strategy too.

report for duty
still not looked at the map will try to catch up soon

Some teams are speculating about the map type. I now realized that my description of a custom-made continents map turned into "custom continents" during the process of preparing the announcement thread. So to make it clear: I always design the maps from scratch and just afterwards I give a suggestion what it might be similar to. And I said "treat it like a continents map". This became "custom continents" somehow without me noticing this detail. Not sure if/how this will effect your plans, but I wanted to make sure you don't work with a false premise. I will post this in each team thread.

Have checked the initial save, no cities, wonders, religions, Corps built / founded yet. We have +3 with Willem. Screenshots shortly.

Screenshots

Not much to see from the Demographics until the initial cities are founded but the soldiers is interesting. I'm not very good at working these out but the values are driven by the list below (given there are no cities so pop / buildings are irrelevant).

23k could be someone with Mining / Archery / Hunting, 1 Warrior and 3 Archers but that doesn't really narrow it down!

Jenarie said:

I used the picture posted in the announcement thread to make a dotmap.

Click to expand...

It sounds like you meant to attach or embed a picture... it didn't come through.

BSPollux probably messed up starting units again -_- Very bad guy. After 1st turn we will know definitely more.

Base for AIs should be:
12k from techs (archery, hunting, wheel)
9k from 3 archers

So the minimum of 21 --> something has happened :]. The lowest has 4k less - probably the wheel and an archer was removed or 2 archers.

First of all I think he does not removed Archery as it happened last game, because it will make it possible ladies to be destroyed by barbs.

The difference between highest and lowest is so huge, that we can assume all AIs were not treated the same way - there should be max 2k per mining and 3k for archery unique units at start

NobleZarkon said:

Not much to see from the Demographics until the initial cities are founded but the soldiers is interesting. I'm not very good at working these out but the values are driven by the list below (given there are no cities so pop / buildings are irrelevant).

23k could be someone with Mining / Archery / Hunting, 1 Warrior and 3 Archers but that doesn't really narrow it down!

Click to expand...

I think the variation between Rival Best and Rival Worst might be another clue. There are two civs whose starting techs give them +6000 soldiers at the beginning: Mongolia and Mali. So, the low number (17,000) should be all units + archery, which all Immortal AIs would have. Then, +0 to +6000, depending on starting techs. (Willem starts with Fishing + Ag, so we know he gets +0 on starting techs)

If you take 17k and subtract Archery you have 11k. That 11k could be 4 Warriors + 1 Archer OR 1 Warrior + 3 Archers. BTW, I think you were off on your original math. 23k - Mining - Archery - Hunting = 13k. That's more than the 1 Warrior + 3 Archers you suggested.

Anyway, as long as BSPollux kept the starting units the same for all of the AIs, we can expect to meet either Mansa or one of the Khans. If he didn't, then all bets are off.

No no my mistake :] immortal AI doesnt start with the wheel, only archery and hunting, so it makes 8k from techs and 9k from 3 archers giving 17k --> and this is willem

Then civs can get:
+4 from wheel at start
+2 from mining at start
+6 from both (mansa musa)

Mansa is not in game because it will make another +3k from skirmishers, he actually gets +9

But how we can make 23k if Mansa is the only leader with mining and wheel?


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13k. That's more than the 1 Warrior + 3 Archers you suggested.

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But it is 3 archer replacements + a warrior

enKage said:

BSPollux probably messed up starting units again -_- Very bad guy. After 1st turn we will know definitely more.

Base for AIs should be:
12k from techs (archery, hunting, wheel)
9k from 3 archers

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I didn't know AIs got The Wheel on Immortal, but I think in this case it must be only the civs that normally have that as a starting tech.

Edit: Ok, nevermind.