Mongolia completely overpowered?

EmpireOfCats said:

You have the advantage of knowing what is coming once they reach the tech level for knights, so you either 1) wipe them out before they get that far (Greece, I'm looking at you) or 2) survive their onslaught and wipe them out after their high-phase is over. Just deal with it.

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Wow. Easier said than done, bro.
1.Wipe them out before they get that far? There are plenty of mounted units that come before "that far"... It's not as if Mongolia is weak until they get Keshiks. That's clearly false. Maybe with Greece, as you pointed out. But unfortunately for Greece, their sucky Hoplite (Suck compared to Champ Calvary) does not even compare to the Khan. Khan+Horseman>Champ Calvary. And no: The Khan does not take hammers.. So please don't argue that.
2. Survive their onslaught? Again: Easier said than done. Especially at the Knight age, since you said "after their high-phrase is over". If you are anywhere near them, you won't "survive their onslaught". That's just how it is... The Khan essentially turns their army into a freight train... It won't stop because made a small dent. You can injure a bunch of Keshiks (Unlikely) and they'll be fine within a turn. Keep in mind the fact that all of their units have 5 movement. (Obviously these are Mounted Units and the Khan) Trust me, you will not "survive their onslaught". (At least if it was a human player)
If you're facing a human Mongolia, and they want to kill you once they have Keshiks, then you're pretty much finished.

Note: This, of course, is a fantasy. Considering Mongolia can't be played in Multiplayer, you will never be facing another human playing as the Mongols (until/unless they implement Mongols for Multiplayer) But the AI is terrible; there's no reason to compare anything with an AI... England is overpowered against an AI. And we all know how good England is(no offense to England fans)...

Thanks @ Thormodr

@Aeneas7777777

your only chance is that their Khan die and they have to leave you for the Kuriltai to vote a new Khan because this was almost the only reason they did not conquer the whole world besides tsunamis ofc.

Aeneas7777777 said:

Wow. Easier said than done, bro.

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Valid points. We'll have to see how the civ plays and which strategies really work once the AI is fixed and Mongols work with multiplayer.

Again, for all the things I don't like about Civ V, this is one area where the developers are doing it right. I have the feeling the civs have far more character than the Civ IV ones did -- the best comparison I have come up with is Age of Kings, though that isn't quite right.

Hilding said:

Thanks @ Thormodr

@Aeneas7777777

your only chance is that their Khan die and they have to leave you for the Kuriltai to vote a new Khan because this was almost the only reason they did not conquer the whole world besides tsunamis ofc.

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That too! If their Khan dies(unlikely with 5 movement ), who knows what could happen to them!

EmpireOfCats said:

Valid points. We'll have to see how the civ plays and which strategies really work once the AI is fixed and Mongols work with multiplayer.

Again, for all the things I don't like about Civ V, this is one area where the developers are doing it right. I have the feeling the civs have far more character than the Civ IV ones did -- the best comparison I have come up with is Age of Kings, though that isn't quite right.

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Yeah.. I think we'll have to wait and see. Comparing all of this to the current AI, is pretty ineffective.. I could beat the current AI with any civ. (I've yet to test it with the patch. Tell me: Is it better?) And yes: The civs are very good this game.

I've seen a couple games with Mongolia in it now, and not once has Genghis Khan ever declared war on a city-state.

Dark_Jedi06 said:

I've seen a couple games with Mongolia in it now, and not once has Genghis Khan ever declared war on a city-state.

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Civ 4 AI
Civ 5 AI

The one you faced was the

I used Greek cavalry to roll on Ghengis on King. It wasn't hard, he spawned next to me and since I read this post I figured I would have to bring it. So I did.

In case you haven't tried it, Greek cavalry rush works.

Guardian_PL said:

What diff setting was it? I'm simply curious as to how dumb the AI still is...

Once mounted units will be nerfed (for instance lower the strength by 2 of each Horsemen, Knight etc, spears/pikes will get +150% against mounted or open terrain penalty will be lowered down to -10% or sth) then Mongolia could be fun to play, as it is now it looks like a GodMode to me

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I'm playing on Emperor. The AI has actually been pretty smart. Given its limited options, the Mongols sent one-man, then two-man convoys, then two two-man convoys, trying to outflank me. I didn't notice that he had landed down the coast, and when I saw him, assumed he'd gun for an empty city. However, his goal was to hit the fort sealing him in from both sides!

Given the AI's reluctance to use mounted units, I actually don't expect much from the Mongols as an opponent.

Aeneas7777777 said:

No offense.. But if that was a human player, you would be long gone.

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Really? Any human player? What if he's a noob? Or drunk?

Really worthwhile post, there.

The point of mine is that I have a feeling the Mongols aren't going to be any sort of terror run by the AI. In fact, I'll bet they're subpar. If the AI can't use horses, what are the odds it can use ranged ones effectively?

I have played 2 Mongolian campaigns so far. The first was pangeae/standard/immortal/+2 civs and I had a difficult start in middle of 4 civs and no horsies! Still prepared for war with honor tree and had to settle distant city to get horses. As my first horse came trotting out of the pretty freshly painted red barn Alexander dow's my hapless butt. I should've seen it coming but we had an RA and lux deal in the works. I was also not the one encroaching upon his domain. As I was pulling my pants up I finally realized my first real civ5 loss was a real possibility. I was able to get 2 horses out but the CC's and Hopalites were too much for my small force. 1st loss recorded and I took a bow to Alexander's smart move.

2nd match with same starters (this time no college football to distract me) and I had a good start local as well. With my back to the ocean I did my slow 5 city build with a couple of wonders and honor tree (of course). Elizabeth dow's me but this time I had the production to push out my horse army in short order. I introduced the English to Mongolian culture in quick fashion. With the army of horse, the SP warmed up and the foundation established for science & happiness I took my force of 5 horse & 1 khan and turned them on the cultured Chinese. Too easy. Russia & Germany saw the writing on the wall and invaded my back door. I wasn't worried about Germany as they were sealed off by CS's so I took my new Keshiks and very experienced horse and made quick easy work of Cath. I should've known better but I was flying high so I decided to square off against Bizmark's uber UU. The only thing that slowed me down was mountanous terrain and a narrow approach. I lost a Keshik from over aggressive behavior. I realize this might not work so sue for peace. He tells me to eat Sourkraut. I withdraw and wait. He sends his massive army through the passes and mostly via water. My tiremes make quick work and my keshiks hold the passes gaining crazy xp. Now I counter. Once I get through the passes and raze 1st city I see nothing but open terrain. Ahhhh. Game over. The rest is history.

Innitial impressions: Khan kicks but. Took awhile to get used to his awesome movement. All the xp=more khans= more golden ages. Mongolians greatest attribute is not their UUs but the +1 movement. This made the horsemen rush insanely powerful. I was well on my way to world dominance by the time the Keshiks came out. I'm naturally an empire builder type so I should've skipped my usual 5 city plan to fully utilize these movement benefits earlier.

Not too op imho. Just op vs the ai but what isn't? I see the Mongols to be fun for a ride a few times but after that the horsemen rush gets old real fast.

Txurce said:

Really? Any human player? What if he's a noob? Or drunk?

Really worthwhile post, there.

The point of mine is that I have a feeling the Mongols aren't going to be any sort of terror run by the AI. In fact, I'll bet they're subpar. If the AI can't use horses, what are the odds it can use ranged ones effectively?

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You've caught me. I have no way to reply.

I usually prefer playing more peaceful games, but i decided to try out the mongols the other day. i was playing prince/small/5 AIs/12 CS. i started out on a medium sized continent with Arabia, chilled out with him for awhile until i researched chivalry. 3 Keshiks, 1 horse, a Khan and an archer and i steam rolled him, only losing the archer to misclicking and sending him into city bombard range. i got bored with the game after that and quit, it was way too easy, same as my science vic with China. its amazing to me how much easier V is than IV for me.

Mongolia is so overpowered.I am playing as Hiawatha and WAS friends with Mongolia. I think im going to war with them soon so i need a good way to overpower them.

Where are you in the game? Its best to take them out around the time they get Cavalry because there are no annoying Keshiks. Its OP in multiplayer, but horribly underpowered in SP.

lschnarch said:

Wait until you have to play against them...

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not that scary since AI does not know how to use Keshiks properly.

against Mongolian human player, well, that's another thing.

Keshiks+Honor (50% more exp from battle) owns. They quickly get logistics and range. Too bad they upgrade to melee cav and lose lot of their promotions. but it you go for straight domination victory, game might be over before you get to Modern.

If in SP you shouldn't have a problem. AI is pretty bad with Keshiks, they'll finish within range.

If MP, hope you have knights!

njmfff said:

not that scary since AI does not know how to use Keshiks properly.

against Mongolian human player, well, that's another thing.

Keshiks+Honor (50% more exp from battle) owns. They quickly get logistics and range. Too bad they upgrade to melee cav and lose lot of their promotions. but it you go for straight domination victory, game might be over before you get to Modern.

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Yeah...I agree completely.... They are great right up to the time of cavalry and I guess a bit beyond as long as you don't upgrade them.... In my last game as the Mongols I had Kilimanjaro quite close....though I never really could tell just how much of an advantage that was...it was certainly some advantage, but there is more to placing units for maximum effectiveness than the ability to deal with hills...there was always enough level land to complicate an analysis. And, there is also the problem of keeping the Khan up with his troops...

But the Mongol AI Keshiks don't bother me at all..... The Mongol AI seems to just leave them around to be slaughtered and doesn't seem to marshall them the same way a human would.....

....I'm probably a little more concerned if I see AI Attila's Horse Archers....not that he is any better at handling them than Ghengis, but more because they come so early in the game that typically you don't have much of an army nor enough gpt to support one even if you did have the units... Attila's threat doesn't typically last very long....

Did nobody notice that this thread just got resurrected after a 3 year slumber?

Loucypher said:

Did nobody notice that this thread just got resurrected after a 3 year slumber?

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Yes...I did, but it got interesting....

Personally I don't mind so-called "necro threads" if they it still have relevance....