National Wonder Elimination Thread

OmniPotent42 · Sep 5, 2012

Circus Maximus 3
Hermitage 12
Ironworks 27
National College 45
National Epic 12
Oxford University 25

I'm surprised that NIA lost to Hermitage, which is my least built wonder probably ever. Ironworks shaves everything you build by at least 1 turn making it great for any victory condition.

krc · Sep 5, 2012

Circus Maximus 3 - 2 = 1
Hermitage 12
Ironworks 27 + 1 = 28
National College 45
National Epic 12
Oxford University 25

I rarely have enough happiness problems in G&K to bother getting the Circus Maximus; there are just too many other ways to deal with that problem now.

On the other hand, I almost always can find a use for the extra production that comes from the Ironworks.

OmniPotent42 · Sep 5, 2012

Hmm...maybe we should set National College aside for a while and maybe put it back in when there are only 2 left. That way we can concentrate votes on the underdogs. Let's face it: we all need National College, so I think this is the best way to go about it. Copy from this list below:

Circus Maximus 1
Hermitage 12
Ironworks 28
National Epic 12
Oxford University 25

National College will stay at 45, and will be reintroduced when there are only 2 other wonders left.

whyidie · Sep 6, 2012

Circus Maximus 0
Hermitage 12
Ironworks 28
National Epic 12
Oxford University 26

Early supporter of Circus Maximus, booting it out of the game now. My game has evolved to the point that religion and CS can offset my happiness problems. BACKSTABBED

Upvoted Oxford. Love a free tech, especially when well timed.

Monthar · Sep 6, 2012

Hermitage 10
Ironworks 28
National Epic 13
Oxford University 26

I build National Epic almost every game.
In most games by the time I can build Hermitage it's too late to bother.

Mesix · Sep 6, 2012

Hermitage 10
Ironworks 29 (+1)
National Epic 13
Oxford University 24 (-2)

I like to build (and often rush buy) Workshops in all my cities early in the game. As such, Ironworks is the only remaining wonder which I always build, because I always have the prereqs and getting bonus :c5production:

in a key city is always appreciated.

It is had to decide which of the remaining 3 to vote against. I voted down Oxford because it often goes unbuilt in my games. Sometimes it is because I want to save it to get a key technology free and then win by Domination or Utopia before ever using it. Other times, it takes too long to get the necessary Universities in all of my cities...especially if going wide with some small garbage cities placed to grab resources or with low :c5production:

to run specialists.

The bottom line is that:

I always build Monuments (National Epic requirement)
I always build Workshops (Ironworks requirement)
I almost always build Opera Houses...sometimes getting them for free with Legalism (requirement for Hermitage)
I would like to build Universities, but often don't get them in every city

lb1785 · Sep 6, 2012

Hermitage 8
Ironworks 30
National Epic 13
Oxford University 24

Hermitage I never build, maybe because I don't go for a Cultural victory that often. But anyway, it's quite a constraint to build operas in each city (3 buildings/city requirement !)

Ironworks because I always build it in my games, the workshop is quite a must-have in any city imho, so the requirement is not so much of a problem...

zyx · Sep 6, 2012

Hermitage 8
Ironworks 30
National College 45
National Epic 13
Oxford University 24

I just wanted to look whether NC has already won, but NC wasn't on the list anymore, so I put it right back.

Mesix · Sep 6, 2012

OmniPotent42 said:
Hmm...maybe we should set National College aside for a while and maybe put it back in when there are only 2 left. That way we can concentrate votes on the underdogs. Let's face it: we all need National College, so I think this is the best way to go about it. Copy from this list below:

Circus Maximus 1
Hermitage 12
Ironworks 28
National Epic 12
Oxford University 25

National College will stay at 45, and will be reintroduced when there are only 2 other wonders left.

zyx said:
Hermitage 8
Ironworks 30
National College 45
National Epic 13
Oxford University 24

I just wanted to look whether NC has already won, but NC wasn't on the list anymore, so I put it right back.

NC has been removed on purpose. It was clear to be the runaway winner, so the others are now vying for 2nd place.

krc · Sep 6, 2012

Hermitage 8 - 2 = 6
Ironworks 30 + 1 = 31
National Epic 13
Oxford University 24

lb1785 said:
Hermitage I never build, maybe because I don't go for a Cultural victory that often. But anyway, it's quite a constraint to build operas in each city (3 buildings/city requirement !)

Ironworks because I always build it in my games, the workshop is quite a must-have in any city imho, so the requirement is not so much of a problem...

These are exactly the correct reasons....

Karmah · Sep 6, 2012

Hermitage 7
Ironworks 31
National Epic 11
Oxford University 24

Hermitage : comes right at the time I need to finish rationalism left side/commerce right side on non cultural victory. Build four opera quickly get hermitage in capitol to reach 12-16 turn a policy.

National Epic : quite an expensive (hammer-wise) garden

SammyKhalifa · Sep 6, 2012

Mesix said:
NC has been removed on purpose. It was clear to be the runaway winner, so the others are now vying for 2nd place.

Yeah, it's clearly the best one. I wonder if it would be worth the developers' time to consider putting it (further) back in the tech tree or bumping up some of the others. Hermitage could be made to just require Amphitheaters, for example.

EDIT--part of it also might be that it's a +% to science instead of a hard number. What if the IW were +50% production or the Treasury +50% money?

Dogmouth · Sep 6, 2012

SammyKhalifa said:
Yeah, it's clearly the best one. I wonder if it would be worth the developers' time to consider putting it (further) back in the tech tree or bumping up some of the others. Hermitage could be made to just require Amphitheaters, for example.

EDIT--part of it also might be that it's a +% to science instead of a hard number. What if the IW were +50% production or the Treasury +50% money?

+50% production would be crazy awesome -- too much so. +50% money would be a lot, but probably ok. Like you, I'd love to see them relax the requirements for the Hermitage. It's way out of line compared to NC, IW, Heroic Epic, and the Treasury, each of which only requires one building in each city. Hermitage requires three times as many!

SammyKhalifa · Sep 6, 2012

Dogmouth said:
+50% production would be crazy awesome -- too much so. +50% money would be a lot, but probably ok. Like you, I'd love to see them relax the requirements for the Hermitage. It's way out of line compared to NC, IW, Heroic Epic, and the Treasury, each of which only requires one building in each city. Hermitage requires three times as many!

Yeah, I agree it would be too good. NC is kind of too good too, though.

I think Amphitheaters is the right place to put Hermitage even though it's too deep. It would be too easy to get with the Tradition the way it is now if it were just one deep (plus no tech requirement for the monument).

Mesix · Sep 6, 2012

Dogmouth said:
+50% production would be crazy awesome -- too much so. +50% money would be a lot, but probably ok. Like you, I'd love to see them relax the requirements for the Hermitage. It's way out of line compared to NC, IW, Heroic Epic, and the Treasury, each of which only requires one building in each city. Hermitage requires three times as many!

...but the first level building (Monument) is already a requirement for another national wonder (the National Epic). There is a social policy (Legalism) which will give you a free :c5culture:

building in your first 4 cities. Social policies being a new element to the game and a way to showcase :c5culture:

in CiV, attaching a second national wonder to :c5culture:

buildings seems like a good design decision. Assuming that you build Monuments early (required for the National Epic) and take Legalism, all you really need for Hermitage is to build 1 additional building in each city which could be a tier 2 building (Amphitheater) or a tier 3 building (Opera House) depending on when you take Legalism.

Hermitage is appropriate for tall empires with 4 or less cities in the early game. If you play an ICS strategy, then Hermitage (and a lot of national wonders really) will be very difficult to build. This seems to be intended as well. Hermitage is a :c5culture:

boon for the player who develops a tall empire and wants the added bonus either for social policies or to push for a cultural victory. If you are playing an ICS strategy, you are probably not doing either of the things it is designed for.

SammyKhalifa · Sep 6, 2012

Mesix said:
Hermitage is appropriate for tall empires with 4 or less cities in the early game. If you play an ICS strategy, then Hermitage (and a lot of national wonders really) will be very difficult to build. This seems to be intended as well. Hermitage is a boon for the player who develops a tall empire and wants the added bonus either for social policies or to push for a cultural victory. If you are playing an ICS strategy, you are probably not doing either of the things it is designed for.

But I bet it was also intended for NC to be for Tall empires. Right now it's for everyone. If Hermitage were earlier it might have more appeal, and not just if you're playing for a culture victory.

Karmah · Sep 6, 2012

SammyKhalifa said:
But I bet it was also intended for NC to be for Tall empires. Right now it's for everyone. If Hermitage were earlier it might have more appeal, and not just if you're playing for a culture victory.

I doubt it it was. The position in the tech tree of the hermitage is pretty different than NC's

Tabarnak · Sep 6, 2012

Hermitage 7
Ironworks 29
National Epic 11
Oxford University 25

Hard to tell which one between Ironworks and Oxford is the most useful. They are both interesting too. But i will give my green vote to Oxford because of his capacity to bring a player 8-10 turns ahead of a said strategy. IW will help you to produce faster but it's not always necessary.

abandag · Sep 7, 2012

Hermitage 5
Ironworks 30
National Epic 11
Oxford University 25

Hermitage is too hard to get. I rarely find myself actively trying to build or buy Opera Houses, unless I'm going cultural, and even then I tend to prioritize other things.

Workshops, on the other hand, are something I always build in every city. The more production I get, the better. The only problem I have with Ironworks is trying to figure out which city I want to build it in. I can live with problems like that.

Mesix · Sep 7, 2012

Hermitage 5
Ironworks 31 (+1)
National Epic 9 (-2)
Oxford University 25

I like Ironworks. I always build a Workshop in every city, and getting the added benefit of the Ironworks in one of them (which can then crank out units or Renaissance Era wonders depending on the game goals) is like the icing on the cake!

I voted down the National Epic. Even though I generally build a Monument as the first building in every city, the National Epic often goes unbuilt until late in the game if al all. When playing Babylon, I build it early to get every added GS point possible for the GS engine. When playing other civs, I seldom concentrate great people generation on one city choosing to specialize cities for a variety of great people and more flexibility in planning when and in what order they will be "born" into my empire. When doing this, the NE is rather lackluster.

National Wonder Elimination Thread

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