UU&UB or UU&UU elimination thread

America: B17, Minuteman 21
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 20
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 16
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 13
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 18
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 22
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 10
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 22
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 22
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 21
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 14
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 16
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Korea: Turtle Ship, Hwach'a 4
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 23
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 21
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 20
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 14
Rome: Ballista, Legion 26
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 17
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 21
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 25

+Spain: Like I've mentioned many times before.

-Russia: bonus versus injured units is nice but cavalries are generally too weak to do anything because Gatling Guns can easily defeat them. Krepost isn't great too. Barracks are not necessary to be built in every city.

America: B17, Minuteman 21
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 20
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 16
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 13
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 18
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 22
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 10
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 22
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 22
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 21
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 14
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 16
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Korea: Turtle Ship, Hwach'a 4
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 23
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 21
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 20
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 14
Rome: Ballista, Legion 26
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 18
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 21
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 23

Spain: The Spain train has been circulating these past two elimination threads but I am definitely not on board. Like I say in every post, without the UA's to take into account there is no one UU I truly dislike. I played Spain fairly recently and I agree that Tercio's are strong and the Conquistador's +2 sight is damn helpful in any situation but their perks just don't hit my sweet spot. I used to think Conquistador's were the better of the two but without the UA in mind Tercio's easily take the prize. Strength > sight

Siam: Naresuan's Elephant: +50% bonus vs mounted, +25% combat strength, doesn't require horses. Pound for pound, somebody tell me how the Conquistador is the better Knight replacement as stand-alone UUs. Love me my civ elephants. Wat: You are essentially earning a free culture building by building the university. Filthy.

seancolorado said:

Siam: Naresuan's Elephant: +50% bonus vs mounted, +25% combat strength, doesn't require horses. Pound for pound, somebody tell me how the Conquistador is the better Knight replacement as stand-alone UUs. Love me my civ elephants. Wat: You are essentially earning a free culture building by building the university. Filthy.

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I do agree that NEs are better stand-alone UU since they have higher CB, but IMO conquistadors are better under most circumstances. Being a good stand-alone unit is just not enough. First, NE has a 1 movement penalty, which makes hit-and run tactics inefficient. However, hit-and-run is the main factor that makes it worthy to build a mounted unit. Second, conquistadors do not have city penalty. So you can use them to attack cities and run away from the city/ranged units' range. This can be really powerful. Last, conquistadors have another 3 abilities: defensive embarkation, +2 sight and settling cities. They make conquistadors very powerful when conquering other continents.

Lordleoz said:

I do agree that NEs are better stand-alone UU since they have higher CB, but IMO conquistadors are better under most circumstances. Being a good stand-alone unit is just not enough. First, NE has a 1 movement penalty, which makes hit-and run tactics inefficient. However, hit-and-run is the main factor that makes it worthy to build a mounted unit. Second, conquistadors do not have city penalty. So you can use them to attack cities and run away from the city/ranged units' range. This can be really powerful. Last, conquistadors have another 3 abilities: defensive embarkation, +2 sight and settling cities. They make conquistadors very powerful when conquering other continents.

Click to expand...

Oh, for sure. Let me be clear: I think they are great UUs. My style of play is conservative, slow-and-steady so my attacks tend to occur only by a city that's bordering my own. I like to slowly disease my way through the continent, like water trickling from a faucet. I have found that both work well with this, but I just prefer the power of the elephant.

America: B17, Minuteman 21
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 20
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 16
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 13
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 18
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 22
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 10
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 22
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 22
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 21
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 12 (-2)
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 16
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Korea: Turtle Ship, Hwach'a 4
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 23
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 21
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 20
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 14
Rome: Ballista, Legion 26
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 18
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 21
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 24 (+1)

Conquistadors are probably THE best done UU; they may not have the best stats, but they are truly unique in the role they play vis-à-vis knights and other knight replacers. Together with the Pretorians they are the example of what UU should be: add flavour and diversity to their civ.

Greeks: two units, early in the game that could be exchanged with their regular counterparts and it hardly would change a thing. KTHXBAI to you, Alex!

America: B17, Minuteman 21
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 21
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 16
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 13
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 18
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 22
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 10
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 22
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 22
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 21
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 12
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 14
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Korea: Turtle Ship, Hwach'a 4
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 23
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 21
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 20
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 14
Rome: Ballista, Legion 26
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 18
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 21
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 24

Arabia: camel archers are complete butchers now that their movement has been upped to four, and the bazaar has constantly called one of, if not THE best building, and can better fund a large army.

India: I don't build castles until neuschwanstein, and by then we're very far into the game. And the warelephants are the worst of the elephant UU.

Princeofnigeria you didn't put up a point for arabia.

Fixed.

America: B17, Minuteman 21
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 21
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 16
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 13
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 18
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 22
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 8
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 22
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 23
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 21
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 12
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 14
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Korea: Turtle Ship, Hwach'a 4
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 23
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 21
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 20
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 14
Rome: Ballista, Legion 26
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 18
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 21
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 24

Ethiopia: incredible UB, gives you a religion and can bevused for any playing style. Just depends on the beliefs. The UU helps you in protection and maintain your small empire safe just when warmongers get a new war boom.

Egypt:creepy UU, I always pass across Chariot Arches even if they never existem. The Hapiness bonus for the Burial Tomb isn't strong enought to make me risk be a bucket of gold for my enemies.

America: B17, Minuteman 21
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 21
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 16
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 13
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 18
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 22
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 8
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 22
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 23
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 21
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 12
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 14
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Korea: Turtle Ship, Hwach'a 2
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 24
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 21
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 20
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 14
Rome: Ballista, Legion 26
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 18
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 21
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 24

+Maya: Absolutely perfect for my playstyle. The Atlatist allows me to get some archers up while focusing on more important techs, and the Pyramid helps me keep up with both Science and Faith on the harder difficulties. Gets an upvote from me not only because I love them so much, but because they can benefit nearly every playstyle.

-Korea: It's been said again and again, and while I really don't outright dislike any of the Civs' uniques, this is just the worst pair. A Caravel that cannot enter ocean is crippling to me (granted I play more continents than pangeas). And yes, they may be suited well for defense, but defense is easy enough as it is without crippling your siege and exploratory fronts. Defense isn't where you need the most help in a war, it's on offense by a long shot.

America: B17, Minuteman 21
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 21
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 16
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 13
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 18
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 22
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 8
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 22
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 24
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 21
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 12
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 14
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Korea: Turtle Ship, Hwach'a 0
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 24
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 21
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 20
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 14
Rome: Ballista, Legion 26
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 18
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 21
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 24

Ethiopia: The Stele is one of the most useful buildings in the game. Definitely help in founding first pantheon as well as possible first religion. The Mehai Sefari comes at the perfect time and really helps defend against mid game attacks.

Korea: This has been discussed enough. The replacements are just not good enough compared to the original units and overall, detracts from the Civ overall.

America: B17, Minuteman 22
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 21
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 16
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 11
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 18
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 22
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 8
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 22
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 24
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 21
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 12
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 14
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 24
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 21
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 20
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 14
Rome: Ballista, Legion 26
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 18
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 21
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 24

+America: Minutemen's high agility helps a lot, it's especially useful when attacking enemy ranged units behind. Bombers are one of the most useful units in the game.

-Babylon: Bowmen quickly get obsoleted by CB and they don't have any bonus that can be carried on through upgrades. The UB is terrible. Who need those extra defense?

America: B17, Minuteman 22
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 21
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 16
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 9
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 18
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 22
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 8
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 22
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 24
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 22
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 12
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 14
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 24
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 21
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 20
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 14
Rome: Ballista, Legion 26
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 18
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 21
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 24

Babylon: I usually avoid voting the same as the person above to keep things fresh but this is the worst combination left. The bowman is great, I'm a big fan of the extra strength but I am always quick to get to the composite which makes the bowman obsolete quickly. Even worse when you compare it to similar UUs: Atlatlist, much longer shelf life. Cheaper to build as well. Slinger, not a fan of the -20% combat strength but the composite replaces them quickly and their withdraw promotion carries. Just not a fan of unique defense buildings so I can't say much in favor of the Walls of Babylon (lookin' at you too, Mughal Fort)

France: I love the starting warrior and having him grow up into a Musketeer. Get that musketeer out in the fields and by the time you hit Foreign Legion you have yourself a powerful, promotion-heavy UU. (Of course, I'll have had other Musketeers/FL's but I like to pretend that the starting warrior is the hero and leader of the bunch. I recall two instances where he got killed and both times I just quit that game just because it wouldn't be a true victory without him. Imagination, baby)

America: B17, Minuteman 22
Arabia: Camel Archer, Bazaar 21
Austria: Hussar, Coffee House 16
Aztecs: Jaguar, Floating Gardens 21
Babylon: Bowman, Walls of Babylon 9
Byzantium: Cataphract, Dromon 20
Carthage: African Forest Elephant, Quinquereme 21
Celts: Pictish Warrior, Ceilidh Hall 18
China: Chu-Ko-Nu, Paper Maker 22
Denmark: Berserker, Norwegian Ski Infantry 18
Egypt: War Chariot, Burial Tomb 8
England: Longbowman, Ship of the Line 22
Ethiopia: Mehal Sefari, Stele 25
France: Foreign Legion, Musketeer 22
Germany: Landsknecht, Panzer 19
Greece: Companion Cavalry, Hoplite 12
Huns: Horse Archer, Battering Ram 18
Inca: Slinger, Terrace Farm 16
India: War Elephant, Mughal Fort 14
Iroquois: Mohawk Warrior, Longhouse 21
Japan: Samurai, Zero 12
Maya: Atlatlist, Pyramid 24
Mongolia: Keshik, Khan 22
Netherlands: Sea Beggar, Polder 21
Ottomans: Janissary, Sipahi 18
Persia: Immortal, Satrap's Court 23
Polynesia: Maori Warrior, Moai 14
Rome: Ballista, Legion 26
Russia: Cossack, Krepost 17
Siam: Naresuan’s Elephant, Wat 18
Songhai: Mandekalu Cavalry, Mud Pyramid Mosque 21
Spain: Tercio, Conquistador 24

Etheopia: Very good building that allows for an easy first religion, and a unit that gets stronger if I get weaker (not that I usually do)? Excellent.

Ottoman: I don't see the love here. I would prefer any of the other Unique muskets in 90% of situations (My minutemen will out flank your janisaries and force them into the defensive, or to fight in the rough. My tercio will crush them and stand ground against a counter attack, and my musketeer will out perform him in the long run) and a lancer replacement? No thanks!

Hmmm, so just 5 pages and the poll is already bombarded by people who seem to have little clue on how to play Korea.

Korea arent designed for either conquest or vast expansion, they are designed for peaceful city building with fewer tall cities. If you get attacked the UUs completely destroy any attacking units for a significant chunk of the game. If you only want to play Civ V via conquest or expansion, then you simply dont pick Korea.

It also doesnt come as a surprise - most of the downvotes for Korea appear to have been made by people who state they have never played as them.

Yes, but we are not taking unique abilities into account, mearly units. I think people are saying the korean units are too defensive, while you can still attack with the mehal or the slinger. Idk, I never downvoted them... Or played as them for that matter! My brother is the more scientificly oriented of us.

Well you can definitely still attack with the Hwacha. While it may be weaker against cities it reliably one shots anything outside of them. It trades its city attack for laying waste to units in the field, very little can stand up to them until the Industrial era.

I think it's just that turtle ship often gets loads of hate for silly reasons. I nearly don't see that UU as a cripple as people make it seem to be. I mean, their strength is monstrous. Before Ironclads they will hurt like HELL. And deals more than any other non-sieged unit attacking a coastal city (I mean, you don't get Rifleman/Gatling Guns until Industrial era if memory serves). It's also a great meat shield for cities to attack instead of your siege units.

The fact that they can't survey the ocean shouldn't be viewed as that much of a cripple when you're likely to send your scout out anyways. Or getting frigates just a tech after Astronomy.

Also, only five days in and this thread has slowed to a crawl. I think it will be a very, VERY long time before we even get a top 10 list up, let alone a winner. We need more people to vote!

bhavv said:

Hmmm, so just 5 pages and the poll is already bombarded by people who seem to have little clue on how to play Korea.

Korea arent designed for either conquest or vast expansion, they are designed for peaceful city building with fewer tall cities. If you get attacked the UUs completely destroy any attacking units for a significant chunk of the game. If you only want to play Civ V via conquest or expansion, then you simply dont pick Korea.

It also doesnt come as a surprise - most of the downvotes for Korea appear to have been made by people who state they have never played as them.

Click to expand...

I agree, they just aren't geared for the offense so it doesn't make sense to knock the Hwach'a's inability to tear down a city, or the Turtle Ship's inability to explore. How come I don't hear anybody knocking down the Pictish Warrior or Battering Ram's inabilities to slow down mounted units? Unique Units are there to help define a civ...not to fit a pre-written formula.