Ideologies are good for 3/4 Victory Types

Yeah, that does make sense. Since tourism is linked to culture and it needs to be available to everyone so that the 'ideology' fight can occur, every ideology needs some advantages to tourism. Which then basically means that the other three victories are not present in one of the ideologies, so Autocracy: No Science Victory, and Freedom and Order with no Domination or Diplomatic advantages.

After thinking about it throughout the day i can honestly say i agree with you. They did state originally in a interview that all Ideals had a separate style of cultural victory you could perform. Also currently the only policy group of the 3 that primarily focuses on military is Autocracy. Also, i realized that if Order does not have significant ways of generating culture to defend their ideals then ultimately that makes Order the weakest of the ordeals and the easiest to render moot if you force them to change. Of course this is all speculation in the end but i can say i at least think all 3 will have means of generating Tourism/Culture. Maybe Order will lose out on Diplomacy so they dont have similar strengths to Freedom. It would actually make sense that Autocracy would be good at diplo if they showed it in the form of them interacting with city states by aggressively converting or fearing them into helping them become the leader of the world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htFD1jlZwyw

4:50+ He even discusses the focus of how a Order civ could go about winning culturally.

Freedom probably lacks Military Bonuses, Order lacks City State/Diplo Bonuses, And Autocracy lacks Science due to their narrow focus on military and not much else. BNW actually gives more incentive for a military civ to keep city states alive and on their side for late game when very few others will have their back diplomatically.

Leaving Culture as the central struggle so that all ideals can equally defend themselves and giving each ideal their own unique strengths.
 
I truly think they should not tie these ideologies too much to real world nations like Germany, Soviet Union and U.S.A. It really should feel like you are building your own ideology that doesn't have to follow historical examples. For example I would like to see some more peaceful, but still militaristic tenets in Autocracy. For example I see gunboat diplomacy being in the Autocracy as a good thing although its was "American tenet" in real life. With this tenet you can use your army without actually fighting.
 
I've always seen Gunboat Diplomacy as more a british thing.

I mean, they literally sent a battleship to greece because they tried to fine some expat there.
 
I truly think they should not tie these ideologies too much to real world nations like Germany, Soviet Union and U.S.A. It really should feel like you are building your own ideology that doesn't have to follow historical examples. For example I would like to see some more peaceful, but still militaristic tenets in Autocracy. For example I see gunboat diplomacy being in the Autocracy as a good thing although its was "American tenet" in real life. With this tenet you can use your army without actually fighting.

History is really all you have to go on in a game like this. We wouldn't have kamikaze if a nation that was autocratic hadn't done it before.

I don't quite understand your second point. If gunboat diplomacy is in autocracy, isn't it exactly like you are saying? Who cares what nation it may have originated from?

It seems you are assigning gunboat diplomacy to a real life nation, then complaining that it shouldn't be, when it was you who did it in the first place. You agree with its placement so I don't understand what you are getting at...
 
I've always seen Gunboat Diplomacy as more a british thing.

I mean, they literally sent a battleship to greece because they tried to fine some expat there.

It's sort of an everywhere thing I guess. The big American example is Teddy sending his fleet to Japan to remind everyone that we've got a navy and it's quite capable of Doing Things to those who refuse to open up trade.
 
I truly think they should not tie these ideologies too much to real world nations like Germany, Soviet Union and U.S.A. It really should feel like you are building your own ideology that doesn't have to follow historical examples. For example I would like to see some more peaceful, but still militaristic tenets in Autocracy. For example I see gunboat diplomacy being in the Autocracy as a good thing although its was "American tenet" in real life. With this tenet you can use your army without actually fighting.

Everyone used Gunboat Diplomacy
 
I agree with the logic that culture/tourism bonuses are too important to deny to civs.

Also, the culture victory is "new," so they will want to show off that mechanic more. And it does give you the feeling of the battle of ideologies for the hearts and minds of the world, which is cool and interesting.

Just because of the specific reveal, we know that Autocracy is for Domination/Diplomacy/Culture. We also know that Order and Freedom both have Science because of the same reveal.

Either Freedom has Diplomacy and Order has Domination or vice-versa. You can argue until you are blue in the face that the democratic civilizations in history are warlike; it doesn't change the stereotype. The game usually bows to stereotype. So:

Order: Science/Domination/Culture
Autocracy: Domination/Diplomacy/Culture
Freedom: Science/Diplomacy/Culture
 
Also, the culture victory is "new," so they will want to show off that mechanic more. And it does give you the feeling of the battle of ideologies for the hearts and minds of the world, which is cool and interesting.

The problem is the World College is new too and Diplomatic Victory involves using that mechanic. So it wouldn't entirely make sense to not feature that for all of them.

That being said, I do think it would be bad to weaken any particular ideology to cultural influence.

Order: Science/Domination/Culture
Autocracy: Domination/Diplomacy/Culture
Freedom: Science/Diplomacy/Culture

The only problem I have here is that either "Comintern" or "Worldwide Socialist Revolution" policies would be great for dealing with city-states, so it doesn't make sense to weaken diplomatic in that regard.
 
It should be remembered that one of the tenets we know Freedom has is 8 maintenance free foreign legions. That sounds pretty dom-oriented to me.
 
It would be offensive if the unit still had its foreign land bonus; as it is, it's ambiguous. It derives from the existing Freedom tree, which is clearly intended to give the player bonuses for defending a small territory, based on the ingame text.

This is part of the "what we know" thread, for Order:
"- Iron Curtain; free courthouse in conquered cities"

However, we don't really know that all three trees are good for culture as I speculated. We could find out that all three trees are good for diplomacy or even good for domination, at this point. :)

Not really relevant, but it will take about 1 week tops for the players to decide which tree is "best" for each victory condition. :)
 
I think we should assume that the Foreign Legion still has the same bonus until we know that it doesn't.
 
It should be remembered that one of the tenets we know Freedom has is 8 maintenance free foreign legions. That sounds pretty dom-oriented to me.

While true, the only other possible one that Freedom could arguably be weak on would be Diplomatic and that strikes me as unlikely as well.
 
While true, the only other possible one that Freedom could arguably be weak on would be Diplomatic and that strikes me as unlikely as well.

I'm not even sure what sort of bonuses we could get to diplomacy from ideological tenets. Assuming Patronage still exists as the city-state policy tree, the ideologies would (mostly?) be limited to affecting the World Congress. Is it really possible that all three Ideologies have tenets that help them win a Diplomatic victory?

Maybe some kind of "either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists" ultimatum on the third tier that reduces the number of votes you need from 67% to 51%?
 
I'm not even sure what sort of bonuses we could get to diplomacy from ideological tenets. Assuming Patronage still exists as the city-state policy tree, the ideologies would (mostly?) be limited to affecting the World Congress. Is it really possible that all three Ideologies have tenets that help them win a Diplomatic victory?

Maybe some kind of "either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists" ultimatum on the third tier that reduces the number of votes you need from 67% to 51%?

+6 influence per turn with City States (Gunboat Diplomacy tenet) kind of helps with getting the votes.

I think that Diplomacy is the victory condition for which all three ideologies have benefits. We know Autocracy has it, Freedom most likely has it, and I can far easier, from a flavor perspective, see Order getting tenets like Spies being more effective at City State coups rather than anything cultural.

And of course the World Congress and UN can help with other victory conditions than just Diplomatic. The ISS is going to help with a science victory, extra culture can help with a Culture victory etc. So Diplomatic bonuses can help out with other victory conditions as well, or slow down your opponents.
 
+6 influence per turn with City States (Gunboat Diplomacy tenet) kind of helps with getting the votes.

Right, thanks, I totally forgot about that one.

I can far easier, from a flavor perspective, see Order getting tenets like Spies being more effective at City State coups rather than anything cultural.

I agree that a cultural victory for Order sounds a little wacky, but I just want to point out that coups belong in the Freedom tree, not in Order. Take a look at this list; start at 1945 and scroll down. You'll see at least two (Czechoslovakia, Romania) and maybe three (Afghanistan) coups orchestrated by the USSR. The first two were countries the Soviets already occupied and the third was one they promptly invaded, so none of those are really coups in the sense that Civ V represents.

There are a bunch of "military coups" on that list where junior military officers with leftist sympathies took over and then became Soviet clients (like Somalia and Ethiopia), but there's little or no evidence that the USSR was actually behind those coups.

On the other hand, there are a lot of coups on that list that were orchestrated by the US and the UK.
 
I assume that the whole "good for 3/4 victory types" means that they are better at 3/4 victory types" not that there is no policy or whatsoever that touches upon these areas. Say, Liberty might be the worst option for a domination type of victory, but that just means that it gets only one military related tenet (foreign legions), wich would be rather poor compared to the Autocratic military bonuses (kamikazes, total war, etc).

Also, since we all know that order is suppoused to be the weakest in the whole cultural game, I think that their bonuses will be great increases for culture yields with none for tourism: that way they get to defend their tennet, without advancing in their cultural victory race.
 
Right, thanks, I totally forgot about that one.



I agree that a cultural victory for Order sounds a little wacky, but I just want to point out that coups belong in the Freedom tree, not in Order. Take a look at this list; start at 1945 and scroll down. You'll see at least two (Czechoslovakia, Romania) and maybe three (Afghanistan) coups orchestrated by the USSR. The first two were countries the Soviets already occupied and the third was one they promptly invaded, so none of those are really coups in the sense that Civ V represents.

There are a bunch of "military coups" on that list where junior military officers with leftist sympathies took over and then became Soviet clients (like Somalia and Ethiopia), but there's little or no evidence that the USSR was actually behind those coups.

On the other hand, there are a lot of coups on that list that were orchestrated by the US and the UK.

That might indeed need to be flavored a little differently. The Soviets did a decent bit of election rigging though in the immediate aftermath of WWII in their sphere of influence (as did the Americans). Another possible tenet is to prevent city flipping with military power, inspired by the events of Hungary 1956 and Czechoslovakia 1968.
 
Also, since we all know that order is suppoused to be the weakest in the whole cultural game, I think that their bonuses will be great increases for culture yields with none for tourism: that way they get to defend their tennet, without advancing in their cultural victory race.

That might indeed need to be flavored a little differently. The Soviets did a decent bit of election rigging though in the immediate aftermath of WWII in their sphere of influence (as did the Americans). Another possible tenet is to prevent city flipping with military power, inspired by the events of Hungary 1956 and Czechoslovakia 1968.

Those both sound like good ideas, and very plausible.
 
I'm not even sure what sort of bonuses we could get to diplomacy from ideological tenets. Assuming Patronage still exists as the city-state policy tree, the ideologies would (mostly?) be limited to affecting the World Congress. Is it really possible that all three Ideologies have tenets that help them win a Diplomatic victory?

Maybe some kind of "either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists" ultimatum on the third tier that reduces the number of votes you need from 67% to 51%?

I was thinking more of a "Soft Power" type tenet that represents things like USAID (the United States gives a ton of money each year to smaller nations, especially in the Pacific, in exchange for alliances and military bases). It would give you a gold advantage in diplomacy.

Autocracy can already bully City-States into alliances. A Coup bonus for Order makes a ton of sense (to represent the idea of a communist revolution, not specifically organized coups, which generally go badly no matter who is doing them). A gold bonus isn't that difficult to think of. My cynical side thinks that Freedom should have "Operation Gladio" that allows you to more effectively rig elections, but that's not going to happen.
 
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