Controversy : Kris Swordsman

Because they didn't want to.

They did give the Maori Warrior a Haka War Dance promotion even though, despite what the Maori believed, the dance gave them not special powers.

The different being the Hakka was something that actually happened, regularly. It actually did fill opponents with fear. Kris were rarely if ever used in battle, never used en masse, and never gave the weilder the ability to shoot lightning.
 
For an example of mysticism and belief being used to create tangible effects in Civilization 5, see absolutely any pantheon belief. It's not like this is unprecedented.

Not really, I mean, when you pick goddess of the hunt and get a bonus to the camps, it may be read as a magical bonus, but it may also be read as the fact that your civ, due to its faith in a goddess of the hunt, has created a whole culture focused on hunting, and thus the bonus.
The same logic can be applied to all the pantheon beliefs as far as I know. And also to many UUs and UAs, wonders, and even social policies of the game. Unless I'm ill-informed and Americans really can see a hex father than I can and Japaneses can ignore injuries.

Once again I will state, I don't see the big deal of the Kris swordsman. First because its bonus are not true mystical. Second because its inclusion is no different than most of the unique we already have in the game.
 
The different being the Hakka was something that actually happened, regularly. It actually did fill opponents with fear. Kris were rarely if ever used in battle, never used en masse, and never gave the weilder the ability to shoot lightning.

WOOOW, I wonder what gives that effect: I think I can rule out Recruitment, so that leaves either Heroism and Ambition! :D

:lol: We've gone through this, the Kris isn't giving anyone fairy dust, from what we can tell right now. It has been pointed out that the three promotions we've seen so far are all reasonable (read: non-magic-wielding) promotions. It's not really a stretch to think that a unit became Ambitious, now is it? :crazyeye:

Really, this entire talk of the Kris LITERALLY giving the user magical power is, quite frankly, a straw-man (according to what we know so far). We know the name of four total possible promotions: Ambition (nothing magical here), Heroism (nothing magical here), Recruitment (ditto), and from one of the achievements, Enemy Blade (... I have no idea what does this one even mean! :lol: Maybe they're using their enemy's weapons against them? Maybe giving them a bonus to their strength based on the strength of the one they're fighting against? Not really magical either)
 
For an example of mysticism and belief being used to create tangible effects in Civilization 5, see absolutely any pantheon belief. It's not like this is unprecedented.

Again, mysticism builds YOUR empire, while these nonsensical swords can destroy your enemies. None of the mysticism beliefs give your men supernatural powers, they simply make them more culturally aware of cows/ forests/ gold, giving more culture, or giving you a greater means of communication, making you better able to exchange info an make science. The closest to supernatural would be defenders/ just war, but all that one does is fill one with devine purpose and a sense of being, not embue him with super streangth.
 
Not really, I mean, when you pick goddess of the hunt and get a bonus to the camps, it may be read as a magical bonus, but it may also be read as the fact that your civ, due to its faith in a goddess of the hunt, has created a whole culture focused on hunting, and thus the bonus.
The same logic can be applied to all the pantheon beliefs as far as I know. And also to many UUs and UAs, wonders, and even social policies of the game. Unless I'm ill-informed and Americans really can see a hex father than I can.

You say 'not really' but by that same logic you could read the Kris perks as having a real world function (e.g. the 50% bonus to attack = particular swordsman being a strong fighter)

The only true issue here that I can appreciate is those who say the Kris is not a proper UU. But in my post earlier (and ones later on) I explained why that doesn't bother me
 
Yeah, but it was mostly cerimonial and had no mystical powers. Very few actually charged into battle with this blade, and those that did fought with a much straighter version of the weapon, one that could actually be of use in combat.

Precisely this. It's not just the fact that the ability is called "Mystic Blades" (although some of G&K's religious bonuses skirted too close to being magical effects, such as Faith Healing); what makes it worse is that the unit is not a real-world formation. A kris is a dagger rather than a sword, it was not used in regiments of kris-armed soldiers, and in any case the beliefs in magical ones relates mainly to silver kris, and silver is not a suitable metal for a battlefield weapon. So even if we fudge a bit and say that the unit's abilities refer to their belief that they have magic weapons, rather than actually having them, it doesn't make a lot of sense - if they have silver kris they aren't going to be useful combatants. If they have steel or iron kris, they wouldn't place much faith in the weapons' magical abilities.

As with so much in Civ games, an implausible ability may pass muster in itself if it works well thematically within the game - such as some magical religious abilities, the Huns' city naming system or calling Sweden's UA "Nobel Prize". But when it's both implausible (say, the idea of 10-year carnivals spreading one's influence throughout the world) and a bad idea in concept (Brazil in Civ, say), the whole becomes difficult to stomach. A nonexistent unit with a magical ability falls into the same category.

Again, mysticism builds YOUR empire, while these nonsensical swords can destroy your enemies. None of the mysticism beliefs give your men supernatural powers, they simply make them more culturally aware of cows/ forests/ gold, giving more culture, or giving you a greater means of communication, making you better able to exchange info an make science. The closest to supernatural would be defenders/ just war, but all that one does is fill one with devine purpose and a sense of being, not embue him with super streangth.

Faith Healers is a magical effect, without an explanation you can arrive at even at a stretch. Messenger of the Gods is a magical effect (it doesn't give you greater means of communication, just gives you extra science if you already have a means of communication - i.e. roads). Goddess of the Hunt is a magical effect (if invoking a goddess genuinely makes your people better hunters, it's magical. If it doesn't, invoking a goddess would have no benefit to food production). Fertility Rites is a magical effect that's still harder to explain away. Guruship appears magical, but it's not even clear enough why it gives you a production bonus to be sure.

Any religious belief that gives you "physical" bonuses that relate to environmental products (faith healing, food or production) is intrinsically magical, since it's saying "your belief is affecting the physical environment around you". The kris swordsmen fall into this category. Religious effects on abstract concepts of faith, culture and to some extent science, and on gold generation (since this is an economic product rather than an environmental one) are acceptable in principle, but not all of these are handled in credible ways - such as Messenger of the Gods.

If anything, I think it's great that they have a UU that is more known for its culture than it is for its fighting because that captures the 'essence' of Indonesia to me. It's a way to sneak in the Kris without designating a UB or UI for it, which there can't be of course, which allows them to have both the Candi and the Kris. Love it

There are far better ways of representing this - if they had to include a kris-armed unit (to you it may seem like capturing the 'essence' of Indonesia, to me it feels a way of capturing moderately well-known Indonesian stereotypes), they could have simply given it an effect that related to culture or faith generation.
 
Again, mysticism builds YOUR empire, while these nonsensical swords can destroy your enemies. None of the mysticism beliefs give your men supernatural powers, they simply make them more culturally aware of cows/ forests/ gold, giving more culture, or giving you a greater means of communication, making you better able to exchange info an make science. The closest to supernatural would be defenders/ just war, but all that one does is fill one with devine purpose and a sense of being, not embue him with super streangth.

If you want history go read history books, this is a game that's meant to be fun and explores the concept of what if? Mystical powers are one of those. It's no different than immortal leaders or any other map script that isn't Earth with true start locations.

I for one love the 2 mystical wonders and didn't even think of this as a mythical unit until now.
 
If you want history go read history books, this is a game that's meant to be fun and explores the concept of what if? Mystical powers are one of those. It's no different than immortal leaders or any other map script that isn't Earth with true start locations.

I for one love the 2 mystical wonders and didn't even think of this as a mythical unit until now.

With you on that. Love the mythical wonders of El Dorado and Fountain of Youth. They make the game so much fun and it was perceived as 100% existing to many back in the day so to me it's 100% real in the game.

I also love the gameplay concept for the Kris Unit.

To me civ isn't an out-and-out history game so I have trouble getting worked up like so many people around here.

This is what I see the Kris Swordsman as: An excuse to show off a weapon that has important spiritual and historical and ceremonial meaning to us Indonesians. The fact that people who never would have heard about the Kris weapon now know about it is enough for me. If they misunderstand the weapon as primarily one used in wars? So be it - it's not like these are the same people who will be teaching history and Southeast Asia.

There is a civilopedia entry where they will talk about the Kris. If they do so carelessly or inaccurately THEN I have a reason to complain. But until then I couldn't care less and just want to have fun with the gameplay
 
But earth COULD have looked like those random maps, and the leaders thing isn't a fair argeument, as the physical limitations of the game make having over 2000 unique leaders impossible. I'm not a no fun spoil sport, I don't mind stretching the bounds of what could have happened (spanish conquest of earth) and I am even fine with things that COULDN'T have happened (Pueblo multicontinental shipping empire). I just don't like going off the edge of insanity (Yeti's, Hobgoblins, a werewolf empire, and colonization of subspace). You guys are really villainizing me, and I find it rather rude to tell me to not play my favorite game in the world over one feature that hasn't been fully explored that I don't like. All I am saying is the reason I uppose the Kris being a unit, I'm not personally pissing on the history of Indonesia.
 
The different being the Hakka was something that actually happened, regularly. It actually did fill opponents with fear. Kris were rarely if ever used in battle, never used en masse, and never gave the weilder the ability to shoot lightning.

Nor do they give the wielder the ability to shoot lightning here either.

I'm not even arguing with you on points one and two because I don't know enough information, but my point is the third argument is misplaced because that's not what it does in game either.
 
To be honest I don't like this unit, but it's not from not liking the ability. I actually would much rather see ALL units regardless of their civilization get this promotion except maybe with a chance that it does nothing.
 
There is a civilopedia entry where they will talk about the Kris. If they do so carelessly or inaccurately THEN I have a reason to complain. But until then I couldn't care less and just want to have fun with the gameplay

I have to agree strongly with this. I don't revert to the Civ V opedia as much as I'd like, but it actually has a wealth of background info - comparable to Civ II, and far more than the cursory entries in Civ IV, which devoted much larger amounts of space to explaining game effects and required techs. This is one reason I like the addition of new units, techs, concepts and civs to the game and would often like them to go further.
 
For an example of mysticism and belief being used to create tangible effects in Civilization 5, see absolutely any pantheon belief. It's not like this is unprecedented.

QFT

Besides, I don't see how the UU is mystical in any way. My only (veeeeery minor) problem with it is that it seems like they had this idea for random promotions first and grafted it onto the kris second without any consideration for whether it fits the weapon or not.
 
But earth COULD have looked like those random maps, and the leaders thing isn't a fair argeument, as the physical limitations of the game make having over 2000 unique leaders impossible. I'm not a no fun spoil sport, I don't mind stretching the bounds of what could have happened (spanish conquest of earth) and I am even fine with things that COULDN'T have happened (Pueblo multicontinental shipping empire). I just don't like going off the edge of insanity (Yeti's, Hobgoblins, a werewolf empire, and colonization of subspace). You guys are really villainizing me, and I find it rather rude to tell me to not play my favorite game in the world over one feature that hasn't been fully explored that I don't like. All I am saying is the reason I uppose the Kris being a unit, I'm not personally pissing on the history of Indonesia.

agree with this, i'm indonesian and i want kris swordsman removed from this game! The unit is never existed, really, it's even more realistic to put druids as celtic UU.
Replace them please!
 
You want it removed, for whatever reasons. Mod it.

For now be glad Indonesia is even in the game!
 
...am I the only one who is fine with the slightly mystical nature of the unit, but hates the fact that there's now a random chance involved?
 
You want it removed, for whatever reasons. Mod it.

For now be glad Indonesia is even in the game!

i'm glad that indonesia is in, of course.
I'm not happy that ks is in, of course.
Modding is only a painkiller, not a cure. Will you glad if your country have a dragon rider UU? (you will mod it of course).
 
agree with this, i'm indonesian and i want kris swordsman removed from this game! The unit is never existed, really, it's even more realistic to put druids as celtic UU.
Replace them please!

...but they did exist. They weren't called "Kris Swordsman" but I have a feeling they just did that because it's in the swordsman slot. Honestly, we are asked to think outside the box for gameplay purposes that's all

They weren't an 'army' or anything, but people fought with Kris. In certain Javanese dances, the 1-on-1 fight scenes include the Kris.

As for the promotions? They make sense.

One Javanese dance (I don't know if it's famous, but my mother is Javanese and used to tell me this story) has it where a guy is stabbed and he doesn't die even with his intestines out = healing after units perk the devs came up with (could be a coincidence though)
 
...am I the only one who is fine with the slightly mystical nature of the unit, but hates the fact that there's now a random chance involved?

actually 'mystical' is not the main problem, 99% of great natural occurence explained as magic or mystic, back in history, the problem is there is never an army wielding krises, except if the army consist only with royalties, as only royalties have kris.
@sean
there are kris duels just as knight jousting duels, there are shamans in our history also, but did those facts supports a kris wielding army, i don't think so. Actually, back from civ-wanted thread,i've supported bhayangkara as a most suitable uu for indonesia
 
actually 'mystical' is not the main problem, 99% of great natural occurence explained as magic or mystic, back in history, the problem is there is never an army wielding krises, except if the army consist only with royalties, as only royalties have kris.

But I think this is fine. We are asked to use our imagination a little bit. The Kris I think should represent the weapon and history behind it. The army aspect is purely for the gameplay. I don't understand why so many people here refuse to separate the two when they willingly separate other aspects of civ
 
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