Current (SVN) development discussion thread

Leoreth · Mar 15, 2012

Cosmos1985 said:
Ah sorry, I misunderstood it as the three choices were only for the human player. Excellent! Can you maybe give us the full disclosure with regards to which civs has which percentages?

I've already created a Calc file that has the probabilities for each civ, I could easily add it to the SVN.

That file also showed why probability theory is useful, because it turned out that the chances for Catholic-leaning civs to choose (3) were rather high. I think I may revise the formula.

Mef said:
I fear Catholicism might become a bit too strong... they get all the wonders AND a research bonus?
I think it would be more historically accurate if the protestants get a research and trade bonus (but not as much direct money) and the catholics get free catholicism+churches in new cities or something like that.

Good point, although I thought a little reward for going to war over it was necessary (it's not as if Protestants get nothing). Maybe Protestants should get increased settler build rate to compensate for it, similar to EU3? It would certainly help England and the Netherlands.

Fresol said:
So a legendary city on a completely foreign land will only give the civ stability penalty for the 21 tiles it controls? Is this the right interpretation?

That's how I interpret it, yes. I'm not completely sure about it because I'm relying on the CyPlot::isCityRadius() method I've recently discovered, and I haven't had an in-depth look at what counts as being in a city radius (i.e. do only own cities count, or foreign cities, too). But in general that's what it'll do.

iOnlySignIn · Mar 15, 2012

Leoreth said:
1) Embrace the Reformation: Protestantism becomes your state religion, all your cities change to Protestantism, Catholicism may remain in larger cities, you get 100 gold for every city that had a Catholic monastery. If you have founded Protestantism, you get the shrine for free. Some of the civs that remained Catholic may declare war on you.

2) Tolerate Protestantism: Catholicism remains your state religion, Protestantism spreads to your cities and can even replace Catholicism.

3) Join the Counter-Reformation: Catholicism remains your state religion, almost no Protestantism spreads to your cities, Catholic monasteries get +2 research, and you will declare war on all civs that converted to Protestantism.

I still don't see any real benefits to Embrace the Reformation, from the POV of England, Netherlands, and Vikings (who should be most inclined towards Embrace, IMO).

Loosing the Trade from Catholic/Counter-Reformation civs (which I assume include Spain and HRE automatically) is simply not worth the 100 gold per Monastery. And that is on top of loosing the +2 :hammers:

from Catholic buildings, and the potential to get the last one or two Catholic Wonders (San Marco and Sistine).

Given the current setup the optimal strategy is to either Counter (if all your major trading partners remain Catholic) or Tolerate (if some of your major allies Embrace).

Suggestion: Embrace should give a small bonus to Protestant Church (say +2 :science:

). Even then it may not balance things out because of the +2 :hammers:

of Catholic buildings. As we all know, :hammers:

is definitively more powerful than :science:

.

iOnlySignIn · Mar 15, 2012

Leoreth said:
In other news, I've just uploaded a small but probably important change: controlled tiles will now only affect your stability if they are within the radius of a city. This should avoid stability penalties simply because you have cultured cities at the borders of your historical area. I've yet to see how this affects overall stability.

That is very important and necessary. Cultural Victory may even be worth it now, for China for example.

Thanks!

Fresol · Mar 15, 2012

I also think the +2 production for Catholic temple and monastery is already powerful enough, there's no need to buff Catholicism further. Reformation in comparison gives no real benefit.

King Coltrane · Mar 16, 2012

perhaps the protestant temple and monastery could be merged into a single (seminary?) building that provides the bonuses of both, ie happiness, culture, and +10%science, (as well as maybe +1/2 extra beakers) and doesnt ever obsolete? after all, the point of protestantism was that "everyone was a priest", thereby eliminating monasteries function.

you could also make it so that a civ that adopts protestantism could gain a settler for every 2 cities that convert (think seeking religious freedom a la New Rochelle, Plymouth, etc). this might be OP though...

another possible benefit for protestant nations could be either: +1commerce/workshop, or (and i like this more) +1 production, +1 commerce/village and town. i like the latter since protestantism tended to accompany the creation of a middle class more than catholicism.

as to that, why does urbanization give +1production per workshop? that seems wrong... it seems like urbanization should have to do with the central city plot more than anything (or at least towns). I would think something like "a city gets +5% production per village/town that it works" this wouldnt be overpowered (its unlikely you'd get cities with ONLY towns and therefore +100% production) and would allow cities like amsterdam, london, and new york to become more competitive late game.

essentially i think that the current incarnation of urbanization doesnt encourage big cities enough, which should be the point, especially when compared with agrarianism, which i do think works alright.

Mef · Mar 16, 2012

King Coltrane said:
as to that, why does urbanization give +1production per workshop? that seems wrong...

That is a very good change IMHO. That allows for 3 hammer workshop relatively early in the game which can be very useful for certain civs that need production.

King Coltrane · Mar 16, 2012

i mean i use it too, and i like it. its just that it doesnt seem to make sense for a civic called "urbanization"

civ_king · Mar 16, 2012

King Coltrane said:
perhaps the protestant temple and monastery could be merged into a single (seminary?) building that provides the bonuses of both, ie happiness, culture, and +10%science, (as well as maybe +1/2 extra beakers) and doesnt ever obsolete? after all, the point of protestantism was that "everyone was a priest", thereby eliminating monasteries function.

you could also make it so that a civ that adopts protestantism could gain a settler for every 2 cities that convert (think seeking religious freedom a la New Rochelle, Plymouth, etc). this might be OP though...

another possible benefit for protestant nations could be either: +1commerce/workshop, or (and i like this more) +1 production, +1 commerce/village and town. i like the latter since protestantism tended to accompany the creation of a middle class more than catholicism.

as to that, why does urbanization give +1production per workshop? that seems wrong... it seems like urbanization should have to do with the central city plot more than anything (or at least towns). I would think something like "a city gets +5% production per village/town that it works" this wouldnt be overpowered (its unlikely you'd get cities with ONLY towns and therefore +100% production) and would allow cities like amsterdam, london, and new york to become more competitive late game.

essentially i think that the current incarnation of urbanization doesnt encourage big cities enough, which should be the point, especially when compared with agrarianism, which i do think works alright.

The Science bonus for Monasteries represents the copying of books, in other words it should obsolete at Printing Press

Leoreth · Mar 16, 2012

I've removed the additional monastery science for counter-reformators, and embracing the revolution now gives 100 gold per city regardless of monasteries. I've also increased the spread of Protestantism for the tolerance decision so that there's still a point in choosing the counter-reformation.

Leoreth · Mar 17, 2012

After some minor buffs (Aesthetics and Literature on start, 5% faster teching), Mughals are definitely possible. I even messed up my great artist creation and still managed to get 50k culture in time (although it was close).

civ_king · Mar 17, 2012

Leoreth said:
After some minor buffs (Aesthetics and Literature on start, 5% faster teching), Mughals are definitely possible. I even messed up my great artist creation and still managed to get 50k culture in time (although it was close).

Did you get whacked by perfidious Albion with it's invincible redcoats? (the culture isn't the problem, I was on track to well exceed the culture despite tons of prophets)

Leoreth · Mar 17, 2012

I was lucky in getting the conqueror event before England had Rifling.

civ_king · Mar 17, 2012

Leoreth said:
I was lucky in getting the conqueror event before England had Rifling.

The first experimental rifle bearing units start in 1800, indeed between 1805-1815 they made a whopping 712 (seven hundred and twelve) and they were never used in the Eastern Hemisphere. The first massed produced rifled gun used by the British started production in 1836. As you can see it is slightly anachronistic to be attacked with them in 1700 so if you could please work it so that British redcoats only attack after 1750 that would be great.

PS if England attacks with only the only infantry units being musketmen it is quite survivable. The best solution is to have arquebusiers start in ~1500, musketmen start in ~1700 and riflemen in ~1830, ±10 turns

Leoreth · Mar 17, 2012

Not every soldier that wielded a musket would be classified as musketman in Civ.

strijder20 · Mar 18, 2012

I think a Musketmen -> Arquebusiers + Musketmen split is very interesting. But when would you unlock Muskets? At RP? That's a little bit close to Rifling.

Leoreth · Mar 18, 2012

I think Riflemen, despite the name, already represent most early modern types of Musketmen.

Jusos2108 · Mar 18, 2012

I agree, the current cohesion is good enough imo.

strijder20 · Mar 18, 2012

Well, talking about new unit types, has anyone here ever played the Legends of Revolution mod? It has a nice array of steamships, which are horribly underrepresented in-game. It's like 100 years of naval technology never existed! I think some steamboats to fill the gap between SoTLs and destroyers would be great. It would also give a chance to players without oil in naval warfare.

BenZL43 · Mar 18, 2012

China already train Musketman in 900AD and used it against me, Korea.

Wang is really "defenseless" with China having the Great Wall, four Manchu Horse Archers that spawn every few turns, and Chinese' war declaration with stack of Cho-Ko-Nu and Musketmen.

Though Cho-Ko-Nu is nothing against the Keshik, they are everything for early Korean etc; especially when Hwacha is pretty useless...

civ_king · Mar 18, 2012

Leoreth said:
Not every soldier that wielded a musket would be classified as musketman in Civ.

So then what is a Mughal player to do with Muskets vs. Redcoats?

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