definition of a game

Noriad2

Noriad2

Emperor
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Oct 23, 2014
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In my opinion, the best definition of a game is the one I found, of all places, in the Scientology Technical Dictionary:

4. a game consists of freedoms, barriers, and purposes.

"freedoms" includes the power to do things. Barriers can include space, time, actual walls, or not knowing things.

Playing is using freedoms to overcome barriers to reach the purposes/goals.

When you have all barriers and no freedoms you don't have a game.
When you have all freedoms and no barriers you don't have a game.

A good game requires a sufficient number of freedoms plus barriers that can be overcome by using those freedoms. The difficulty of a game is determined by the ratio between freedoms and barriers. For maximum enjoyment, the difficulty of a game must be matched to the skill of the player.

When you reach your goals or the goals are forever out of reach, the game vanishes. So in a way, winning is also a loss.

Thus players may deliberately increase the barriers (set difficulty level higher), lower their freedoms (handicap themselves) or lower their skill, in order not to win, so they will keep the game. By the way, this is one of the fundamental causes of spiritual degeneration. If you persistently outskill a game, it would be healthier to find a different game that is more suited to your skill level.

Wargames are about force, destruction, control and survival. There are other types of games. Like the game of love and seduction.
 
Thunderbrd said:
Interesting. How do you feel C2C measures against these scales?
Click to expand...

I my opinion,

C2C at highest difficulty level (deity, nightmare option, "start anywhere" option) is not yet as challenging as Civ 4 Beyond the Sword at deity difficulty level, but between version 35 and version 36 the gap has become significantly smaller.
 
I can agree with that. A lot more AI work is necessary but at some point I'd like to see it be equally or even MORE challenging, and not from a lack of freedoms or overtly powerful barriers but rather from the multiplicity of facets and strategies one must balance and consider. I think what we can and should excel at above all is intricacy, making this game really many games under one umbrella.
 
Noriad2 said:
I my opinion,

C2C at highest difficulty level (deity, nightmare option, "start anywhere" option) is not yet as challenging as Civ 4 Beyond the Sword at deity difficulty level, but between version 35 and version 36 the gap has become significantly smaller.
Click to expand...

Balance, realism and "coolness"/fun are the criteria C2C measures itself by. It would be most unwise to get into a childish competition with vanilla over which was harder.

The harder difficulties on vanilla are circumvented by some ridiculously artificial exploits. C2C should and does steer* clear of these.

* Haha just noticed I put two words for herd animals next to each other in a sentence...:crazyeye:
 
Noriad2 said:
I my opinion,

C2C at highest difficulty level (deity, nightmare option, "start anywhere" option) is not yet as challenging as Civ 4 Beyond the Sword at deity difficulty level, but between version 35 and version 36 the gap has become significantly smaller.
Click to expand...

To throw a spanner in the works. :mischief:

Do not make C2C harder just to please top level players, as this may put off less experienced players. It also may deter new players from trying the mod.

Just a thought.

Unless you just change the handicap levels. :)
 
Spoiler :
Do not make C2C harder just to please top level players, as this may put off less experienced players. It also may deter new players from trying the mod


Fun might get more people in, but difficulty is what makes people stay. Just as the Noriad quoted .
Now I am not top level player and never play above Emperor(since I don't like handicaps it provides, I feel like civilization is more about observing word history writes itself, not a race of arms) but I always look for a challenge in every game I play(be it civiliation or not) and if game fails to provide a test to your abilities you feel bored and quit it.

Also, personaly for me, this is exaact reason why I never finished any of my cvilization games till the end, at some point you become just way too powerful to have a competition and while some people enjoy this, likes of me start to lose interest. The way I found this mod enjoying is that when you change to other civlization via civ changer you have alot of interesting mechanics that you need to take care of,and not just some handicap or AI bonus, as thunderbrd said multiplicity of mechanics you have to overcome prolongs the fun.
 
Harrier said:
Do not make C2C harder just to please top level players, as this may put off less experienced players. It also may deter new players from trying the mod.
Click to expand...
We aim to make deity very difficult even for experienced players; and settler very easy even for "untalented" first time players.

It has been a long time since difficulty have gotten any attention in this mod and I do think v37 will have had this issue addressed some; time will tell.
 
Soulmate said:
Spoiler :
Do not make C2C harder just to please top level players, as this may put off less experienced players. It also may deter new players from trying the mod


Fun might get more people in, but difficulty is what makes people stay. Just as the Noriad quoted .
Now I am not top level player and never play above Emperor(since I don't like handicaps it provides, I feel like civilization is more about observing word history writes itself, not a race of arms) but I always look for a challenge in every game I play(be it civiliation or not) and if game fails to provide a test to your abilities you feel bored and quit it.
Click to expand...

Noriad said C2C Deity was easier than vanilla Deity, and implied that that was a bad thing. Since the game is evidently hard enough for you without playing Deity, you may think you're agreeing with him, but you aren't.

Obviously a game needs to be "hard enough" without being "too hard". And obviously those terms will have a vast range of differing meanings for different people.

Vanilla Deity players necessarily use a variety of exploits; basically they can only win by using the flaws in the game's mechanics against it. Since C2C has eliminated many of those flaws, and discouraged many of those exploits, it may need to be easier in other respects. ;)
 
Spoiler :
Since the game is evidently hard enough for you without playing Deity, you may think you're agreeing with him, but you aren't.


You misunderstood my reasoning behind playing not on the highest difficulty. I never said I can't or that I haven't tried. It's just that I would prefer to switch to some minor undeveloped and ravaged by war nation than continue tha arms race exploiting AI weaknesses(which are common, even though you eliminated vanilla ones) ...for example current ram spam prolem, which means you can simply rush any AI that might posses a threat to you, but I don't. I want to see how world build up.
Also another reason for me is that on higher difficulties AI technological advancementt is too high and it ruins the game flow for me, note that I does not imply that I can't keep up with them, it just doesn't feel historical for me.(you might argue that I need to reduce the game speed, but that does not affect anything... since I will simply bargain for their fast achieved techs anyways...due to conquest or trade.)

On a side not I am pretty happy with my current playthrough timescale. It is probably the closest one to historical dates i have ever saw.
 
@Soulmate,
Take note, if you think C2C is a Historic Mod then you are in for further disappointments. While it may be loosely tied to history it is a What If Mod. It will never be truly aligned historically nor in fact come close.

JosEPh
 
The way i play i balance Exploits with a Rationality, Handicapping myself where it is needed, and securing my positions elsewhere, In my Current game I just refuse to become the Attacker, because i know it would be too simple, due to my Tech and production focus, But at the other hand i do not limit my Production or Tech, Turning myself in a form of a mixture between the Infinite Construction of Russia, and the Superior Construction of Germany,
It's been running for so long that i do not know anymore what the exact Options where, but it's Deity,

And on the whole Difficulty matter, Deity to all regards and purposes is and should be the Highest Difficulty, Something for Masochists that want that little extra pain,
It's hard to balance something towards everything, but Civ doesn't have 4 Difficulties but more then that, so the bumps can be more gentle,
and the Easiest Difficulties should be there for those new players, to ease themselves in, The Easiest should be almost impossible to lose unless you're doing it yourself, and every step further towards Deity should make it more and more impossible to win, Without being completely impossible ;)
 
JosEPh_II said:
@Soulmate,
Take note, if you think C2C is a Historic Mod then you are in for further disappointments. While it may be loosely tied to history it is a What If Mod. It will never be truly aligned historically nor in fact come close.

JosEPh
Click to expand...

Hehe, yeah I already figured that out, I'm fine with that, although I'd realy like it to be optional.
 
In my first post I wrote about what makes a game.

The next question I was interested in was: what makes a game FUN (aside from overcoming sufficiently high barriers)?

After some thinking I concluded (for now): fun contains one or more of the following elements: being, doing, having and experiencing.

These elements can happen to you or to somebody else (e.g. making somebody else experience something can be fun for you too)
 
I would include "discovery" eg discovering a different way of achieving goals or even that there are different paths or goals possible.
 
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