Preview and Request Thread

Yoda Power said:

I have to ask. Any updates?

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My PC is being repaired right now, so I can't work on them at the moment. All the files are backed up so when I get it back I'll get working again.

Ok, good to know. Good luck with the PC!

Been back to working out the African unit lines for Dark Continent scenario now that semester's over. any chance of seeing the Maasai lion hunter soon?

Blue Monkey said:

Been back to working out the African unit lines for Dark Continent scenario now that semester's over. any chance of seeing the Maasai lion hunter soon?

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It's done. I have half a dozen more Africans ready for release, I'm just re-rendering the last one as I type, so expect them very soon.

Firstly, a brief update on things previewed and such. I've got a couple of packs in their late stages, mostly done and awaiting one or two units to be finished (eg. Annam and Khmer are waiting for me to perfect my elephant archer animations).

Secondly, I'm starting to make some Indian units. As many of you know a lot more about Indian history than I do, I figured I'd need input. I'll be doing them one era at a time. Please feel free to give suggestions etc. (especially shield styles/designs and weaponry).

First up, Maurya



(Sword is a placeholder)

Cavalry and Elephant also planned

Other eras/cultures I plan on: (other suggestions or pictures welcome especially where noted)

.....

i also believe balam-agab should stick to bakuel's list, it is super,if nice black coloured units for later empires, nice unit list and comprehensive, if we would have all those units similar looking to those presented there India would be covered at a superlative!!!!

About your previews
Please don't take these harshly, they're just my opinions based on the art & images i've looked at & what i've read.

• As you can see in the actual Indian art posted by ShiroKobbure (not the wargame images) the forward "top-knot" that seems so popular amongst unit makers is inaccurate - it is in fact a regional variation of a turban tie and the head should have a close-fitting turban with the knot in front. Where the hairstyle is used in bas-reliefs, etc. it is usually a SE Asian style from one of the Indianized states. A much more typical Indian unit (either Kshatrya or Brahmin) would have the style used in Sandris' previews linked below.
• The gold bead necklace is also overused and inaccurate. Either lose it, recolor it to look like a garland of marigolds, or use a flatter necklace. The "sacred string" shown in Sandris' previews is far more important. Not having it would be like having Napoleon's Old Guard without their bearskin caps.
• The legs of the clothes they're wearing are either too short (dhotis typically go to mid-calf or lower) or too long - the Tamil style is more like tight fitting shorts with a sash/loincloth. In either case the sash should be a contrasting color to the dhoti. Maybe the sash in civ-color & the dhoti white or natural muslin. Plotinus posted a good texture jpeg in his Indian worker thread iirc. His version is also the best dhoti prop yet made, imho.
• Both the criss-cross leather belts and the shirts are very inaccurate. Bare-chested with the sacred thread or else some kind of armor (again with sacred thread) is needed.
• A more traditional style moustache would be fuller and connect to the muttonchops.
• The shield would be more accurately round, with four small bosses. A typical Tamil (Southern India) shield would be bright red.

Posted Requests and Art

• Ultimate Indian Unit Concept Art follow the links to specific posts. Plenty of Indian weapons to chose from. - i've got images on the ole hard drive for everything in the list that is not posted yet.
• Indian Unit Line Workshop thread - Sandris previewed a few gunpowder era units that were never posted. Posts with unmade previews ( a b ) & others with concept art / requests (mostly mine) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Some units have been made (mostly by imperator1961), but many requested in those posts have not.
• One of many uniquely Indian swords - as requested by bigdog5994 amongst others.
• Mughal era art & photos posted by ShiroKobbure.

Specific Requests (some already posted in other threads)

• A unit anything close to a match to Plotinus' Golden Warriors wielding the mace in your preview would allow for a multi-unit of the Pandavas. The helmet prop is available on this site.
• Speaking of that helmet, any units with this version of a similar helmet with a circular decoration at the back would be very useful for eras from post-Vedic up through medieval.
• A female kshatrya in a sari wielding the katar (free prop available)
• Kalaripayattu (Indian martial artist as originally requested by Rambuchan) - one with the urumi (long flexible sword) in the second picture and described in post 3 of that thread would be especially useful as a UU.
• A "hero" unit of Rama (blue-skinned archer) - Sandris' uncompleted wip, with a much longer bow as in this preview. Krisna with the same skin-color & weaponry but in armor would be great as well.
• A saddhu or rishi (to be used as a GL or scout, if no "magical" attack) would be wonderful to have.
  
  For starters
  

Etain said:

I don't know if this helps, but I saw this thread in the Civ 4 forums that's pretty extensive:

Bakuel's Indian Units

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There are some good images there, but also a lot of what are obviously re-skins or reuse of inaccurate (for India) props - notably the hairstyles mentioned above and the kilts. That's just at a quick glance.

Yes India!
I think they have been one of the most look forward to packs, but one that never seems to come.

Research Pictures:
Harappa (3300-1300 BC)
Maurya Empire (322 BC–185 BC) & Satavahana Empire 200 BC - 250AD)
Kushan Empire (100-375AD)
Gupta Empire (320-600sAD)
Delhi Sultanate (1206–1527) & Medieval Rajput states (1100s - 1500s):
Moghuls (1526–1858)
Later Mughals

More images can be found if need be.

I have a request, can you release a lighter skinned and darker skinned version of some of the units so I can use them for Southern Indian and Northern Indian states.

Blue Monkey said:

As you can see in the actual Indian art posted by ShiroKobbure (not the wargame images) the forward "top-knot" that seems so popular amongst unit makers is inaccurate - it is in fact a regional variation of a turban tie and the head should have a close-fitting turban with the knot in front. Where the hairstyle is used in bas-reliefs, etc. it is usually a SE Asian style from one of the Indianized states. A much more typical Indian unit (either Kshatrya or Brahmin) would have the style used in Sandris' previews linked below.

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Fair enough, will do.

Blue Monkey said:

The gold bead necklace is also overused and inaccurate. Either lose it, recolor it to look like a garland of marigolds, or use a flatter necklace. The "sacred string" shown in Sandris' previews is far more important. Not having it would be like having Napoleon's Old Guard without their bearskin caps.

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Not sure what necklace you're refering to... I can add a thread though.

Blue Monkey said:

The legs of the clothes they're wearing are either too short (dhotis typically go to mid-calf or lower) or too long - the Tamil style is more like tight fitting shorts with a sash/loincloth. In either case the sash should be a contrasting color to the dhoti. Maybe the sash in civ-color & the dhoti white or natural muslin. Plotinus posted a good texture jpeg in his Indian worker thread iirc. His version is also the best dhoti prop yet made, imho.

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I've seen the unit, but I cant seem to find the texture.

Blue Monkey said:

Both the criss-cross leather belts and the shirts are very inaccurate. Bare-chested with the sacred thread or else some kind of armor (again with sacred thread) is needed.

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The shirt is taken from a sculpture at Bharhut (it's in the first spoiler in the link from ShiroKobbure). Most places I've seen say it's Indian, although wiki says Indo-greek. The belts I've both seen and read about* as a harness for the quiver. If they don't have that they need something...

Blue Monkey said:

A more traditional style moustache would be fuller and connect to the muttonchops.

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Unfortunately, that is the one style that cannot be done with what I have prop wise

Blue Monkey said:

The shield would be more accurately round, with four small bosses. A typical Tamil (Southern India) shield would be bright red.

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The rectangular shield seems to be more period see here (bottom right) from Sanchi (also literature references) I think the round style is a later version (Islamic maybe?).

* I only have access to internet sources right now, which are limited, but the source seems overall credible.

Any Indian horse archers planned?

ShiroKobbure said:

Yes India!
I have a request, can you release a lighter skinned and darker skinned version of some of the units so I can use them for Southern Indian and Northern Indian states.

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I'll be dong some early (300 B.C. - A.D. 300) and late (900 - 1200) Cholas with darker skin.

nick0515 said:

Any Indian horse archers planned?

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I'm not sure who used them, other than the Kushans. Maybe someone knows? I they were used, I can make some.

Hm, sorry for interrupting you, gentlemen.
If there's the chance to request something when the big plan is on the way, I'd like to request Medieval Hungarian pack of 5 units - crossbowman, spearman, swordsman, horseman, knight.
I do know there's the knight made by BeBro, but if it there's the chance to get the unified style pack...
Imperator has in plans this pack, but he's really busy, so I'm not sure it's the right time to disturb him.
Thanks for attention - it's just the humble request, not the demand.

They look good Balam. I actually have a use for Indian units, so it suits me great!

But any chance there's some Warhammer in the mix?

Here's the texture from Plotinus. Click on it for larger version.


The comment on necklaces was more of a caution against copying that element of other units/previews.

Check all the images in this post - no double strap for quivers in any of those.

In the sculptural images from Sanchi (built during Asoka Maurya's reign), etc. posted by both Shiro & myself here and elsewhere the predominant style is bare chested. It's important to keep in mind that the bas-reliefs at Sanchi include many representations of foreign delegations. If the shirt is Indo-Greek then that would be either post-Mauryan or an imported fashion. Use it, but for the units of other era(s), imho.

Shields: There are many representations from the classical era of round shields. Also there is a shield that is oblong with concave edges on the sides. The images I've seen of it tend to come from the Indianized states of SE Asia - although it's also in the statue in the center, which is Indian. The pillar in the photo from the upper right is from Sanchi (built during Asoka Maurya's reign), iirc. Note the round shield on the second course toward the right end. All the images are pre-Mughal / non-Muslim with the exception of the photo of modern Kalaripayattu martial artists. Take account of the fact that both the martial art itself and the weapon types used predate the Muslim invasions of the Tamil region where it originated. Note also the similarity of shield style to the statue next to the photo - and also to the bottom center image which is from the Tamil region as well. The shields in that image illustrate the red, four-bossed shield mentioned above.



But then, all that just illustrates my opinion. Any units by you of any era or style will be welcome.


EDIT: P. C. Chakravarti on pages 175-176 of The Art of War in Ancient India describes shields used as "bucklers" and quotes Somesvara (while he is confirming the description in the Arthasastra which was written for the benefit of Chandragupta Maurya) to the effect that the proper shape for a shield is round. In War In Ancient India by V. R. Ramachandra Dikhorsehockyar plate 3 (painting from Ellora), plate 4 ( elephants attacking, from Ellora), plate 5 (battle scene, from Ellora), plate 6 (battle scene, from Ellora) all show round shields and no other shape. Granted, the Ellora Caves were decorated in a later era. OTOH, it's worth noting that given all the resources available to him (including photos of Sanchi) these are the sole illustrations of shields chosen to cover the period including the Mauryan Empire by the man who was a Chair of the Department of History and Archaeology of the University of Madras during his lifetime.

But then, that's just the basis of my personal opinion. I'm sure others can find other sources.

How's this for an update for the archer.

Awesome. By raising or lowering the pants hem or colorizing the texture all sorts of regional & era variations should be possible. That should work for anywhere from the Vedic era through to the period when gunpowder and earlier technologies mixed.

Would it be possible to make the loincloth, or whatever the dangly bit is called, civ-color? The belt that is civ-color now & the loincloth are actually (in RL) one long sash tied around the waist. Not sure how much that prop can be manipulated, but maybe it should be narrower? As seen in these galleries from my unit art thread bottom center here, right side in this one, and center here.

Your solution to the strange moustache style looks great. Hope to see it in later units such as the Rajputs as well. It was fairly popular at the time Europeans came into the picture.

Don't mean to be a pain - your efforts are definitely appreciated.

blue monkey, i would like to ask you if you know of some of the earliest heavy cavalry or infantry shown in the sources you have? i want to know how much of heavy cavalry there was in the times of the aryan invasion? did they use exclusively light cavalry tactics, but when it comes to the clash what happens, later in history it is very clear they used all sorts of heavy units...