The 10 social policies

I guess that the Social policies will be mutually exclusive. You can't have Aristocracy and Oligarchy at the same time. So what would be interesting is the progress aspect of this: Once you've progressed from Aristocracy to, say, Monarchy, is there no way back? Once you've switched to a representative government as a presidential republic, is there no more option for autocratic rule?

Compared to reality this would look odd: Societies change. Greece once a semidemocratic society was later ruled by absolute kings.
Or does it reflect some kind of general progress of humanity? From despotism to universal suffrage?
And: Are there values/SPs which point to developments which haven't even happened yet? I mean, if there are futuristic techs and units there might also be futuristic social policies: Universal participation (unlocked by Internet). Like in Sid Meiers Alpha Centauri.
 
Ambassador makes a good point. If you adopt a new policy whilst still retaining the benefits of a previous policy, why would you ever go back? To me that signifies that when you adopt a new policy you will gain new benefits and lose the benefits of the previous policy.

Why is there speculation that it would be any different? It wouldn't make any sense if you could horde loads of benefits as you move along the social policy tree.

Assuming there are 10 branches that means you can have 10 possible benefits at one time. As you move along the 10 branches new abilities will be made available and if you want them more than the previous policies benefits you will change policy. This will most probably be accompanied by a revolution.
 
To me that signifies that when you adopt a new policy you will gain new benefits and lose the benefits of the previous policy.

I'd like this, but this seems to be in direct conflict with their design philosophy.
"With the policies system, we wanted to keep the feel of mixing and matching to construct one's government that was part of Civ IV, but we also wanted to instill a sense of forward momentum. Rather than having to switch out of one policy to adopt another, you build upon the policies already unlocked. The thought process we want to promote is "What cool new effect do I want?" rather than the feeling of needing to perform detailed analysis to determine if switching is a good idea."
http://e3.gamespot.com/story/626533...a-first-e3-details?tag=topslot;thumb;1&page=1

So to me it sounds like the exact opposite. It sounds like you will never go back, and that they are assuming that society always progresses.
 
Ah I never read that quote before.

Well it sounds like a pretty sh**y idea to me. We'll be reading about a 'really cool' new auto-advance button for social policies next.

Edit:

"...rather than the feeling of needing to perform detailed analysis to determine if switching is a good idea." Well that's a good thing isn't it. They might as well highlight where to move a unit next or who to attack next as well to cut down on the 'detailed analysis' usually required during warfare...

I mean seriously. It's a bloody turned based strategy game for gods sakes. Cutting down on analysis in terms of the players' choices isn't a good thing!
 
If you adopt a new policy whilst still retaining the benefits of a previous policy, why would you ever go back?



Well, I don't know if they'd go this way or not, but higher upkeep of some sort ("pay" a certain amount of culture to maintain monarchy or whatever) could do it. Or maybe advancing to democracy "gains" a certain number of :(s.
 
Well that's a good thing isn't it. They might as well highlight where to move a unit next or who to attack next as well to cut down on the 'detailed analysis' usually required during warfare...

I mean seriously. It's a bloody turned based strategy game for gods sakes. Cutting down on analysis in terms of the players' choices isn't a good thing!

I think the one point they have here is that there was no easy way to figure out what the impact of changing civics would be. You couldn't see how much more a "high" upkeep cost was going to cost you in gold per turn, you didn't have a clearly transparent idea of the value of that +1 extra trade route, etc.
So it could be hard to evaluate the tradeoffs without laborious manual calculations.

But in general I agree. Tradeoffs are good.

But its hard to have tradeoffs from moving from one to the next when you have to "purchase" the next level with cultural currency. Each successive one has to be better on average, otherwise why would you purchase it?

The way I would have done it is to pair each social policy tree with another, so advancing down the tree was always beneficial, but by doing so you had to give up advancing down the paired tree.

Or to have branching decisions at every level; eg a commerce tree where you could choose free trade OR mercantilism, corporatism OR environmentalism.

A military tree could have quality or quantity, land or naval, infantry or mobile, offense or defense choices. And so forth.

Maybe it will be possible to mod the system.
 
Ah I never read that quote before.

Well it sounds like a pretty sh**y idea to me. We'll be reading about a 'really cool' new auto-advance button for social policies next.

Just like the AutoTech button right???

The Trade OFF is in the Cultural Cost It is Not
a Universal Suffrage v. Representation v. Hereditary Rule v. Police State Decision... that you can reverse at any time (with some cost)

it is a Universal Suffrage v. Representation v. Hereditary Rule v. Police State v. Feudalism v. Bureaucracy v. Free Speech v. Nationalism v. Slavery v. Serfdom v. Emancipation v. Caste System v. Mercantilism v. Free Market v. State Property v. Environmentalism v. Organized Religion v. Pacifism v. Theocracy v. Free Religion decision
That you are Stuck with (unless they have a Revolution mechanic)

The Civic system had 5 decisions with Options that increased to 5

The SP system has 1 decision with options that increase to ~20-30 (if there is no Revolution mechanic)


The Biggest advantage of this is allows me to have My society BETTER than someone else's without it being higher tech, just more cultured.



Also Note: none of these are 'governments' they are 'social policies'

You can have a 'monarchist' 'democracy'... if people only voted for the Kennedy's because that's what their society encouraged
OR
If the monarchs took constant polls of the population to base their decisions on.

Those societies gets some of the benefits of Monarchy and of Democracy... and if their have a truly advanced society, they don't get the downsides of Democracy or Monarchy


If I told you the Tech tree had 150 techs and that you could only needed to research 90 before the you could get a tech win, and there were several different types of tech win.

Compare America+France.. both "Free Religion" although America is a Religious Free Religion and France is a Secular... Why? because the Societies are different, even if the laws are largely the same... the slight differences in the laws reflect the Society.




I personally prefer the idea of the game designers letting us have a 'Monarchic Rational Theocratic Democracy' and let us imagine what that looks like. They can make it not as good a an equal cost combination that focuses on one tree
(If you had Universal Suffrage were you Really going to choose anything other than Free Speech+Emancipation most of the time
If you had representation were you really not going for Mercantilism)...

That is how I see the 'Democratic Monarch' Its probably not the best value for your culture... you could probably have gotten a combo that would be more effective 75% of the time for the same price. (Which Is Why I'm hoping for a 'Revolution' to get the ability to 'cash out' the monarch and get ~50% of that Culture Back for investment in a new Social Policy that fits better with my Current Social Policies)





Also As for 'Futuristic Social policies'... that's what some of those Combos may represent... a Theocratic Free Religion society... sounds unrealistic.. maybe we just haven't developed it... or a Free Market Command Economy... it isn't really 'free market' or a 'Command economy' using 20th century definitions...but it gets the benefits of both.
 
it is a Universal Suffrage v. Representation v. Hereditary Rule v. Police State v. Feudalism v. Bureaucracy v. Free Speech v. Nationalism v. Slavery v. Serfdom v. Emancipation v. Caste System v. Mercantilism v. Free Market v. State Property v. Environmentalism v. Organized Religion v. Pacifism v. Theocracy v. Free Religion decision
That you are Stuck with (unless they have a Revolution mechanic)

No its not, because you can get any combination of them you like. Serfdom AND slavery AND emancipation. Mercantilism and Free market AND state property. In Civ4 you can only have one civic from each category. That no longer appears to be true, if we're correctly interpreting their statements.

You can have a 'monarchist' 'democracy'... if people only voted for the Kennedy's because that's what their society encouraged
No you can't. Electing Kennedy's and bushes, or Nehrus and Ghandis doesn't make you a monarch.
A monarch, by definition, is not elected. it is hereditary.

If the ruler is chosen by election, they aren't really a monarch. If they're inherited and can't be removed from office except by force, then they're not a democracy.

Compare America+France.. both "Free Religion" although America is a Religious Free Religion and France is a Secular... Why? because the Societies are different, even if the laws are largely the same... the slight differences in the laws reflect the Society.
Yes, both of these are Free religion. What's your point? You couldn't have Free Religion *and* have a State church that everyone was required to be a member of, or free religion and be a democracy.
[England isn't State Church anymore, Anglicanism is not required by the government, it too is free religion.]

Being free religion isn't about the beliefs of the population, its about the policy of the government. You can either allow people to practice their own religion, or you can forbid it; you can't do both at once.

I personally prefer the idea of the game designers letting us have a 'Monarchic Rational Theocratic Democracy' and let us imagine what that looks like.
You can't imagine what is logically impossible. Can you imagine an even odd number?
 
Ahriman, it seems you are far too enthusiastic in condemning the social policies system without ever having played it. It appears that you are assuming that the social policies are the same as civics from Civ 4 (i.e. serfdom, slavery, emancipation) and crying out as to how they could be so contradictory/non-historical. The thing is, we only have a few lines of a handful of previews that more or less say the same thing - "we'e trying to have forward momentum, effects stack." And you are being very vocal about your opposition to social policies despite the fact that we don't even have a picture of the social policies tree, much less the effects of each one and a detailed analysis of its mechanics. Wouldn't it be reasonable to hold off on such resounding and long-winded critiques until we have a clear understanding of how it works?
 
And there is no conflict between being good at attacking people and good at defending yourself.

I don't exactly get how you just complain over and over about realism in a system that sounds awesome, but before I stop reading all this garbage let me point out how hilarious this quote is.

These "protection" warriors are trained in the use of tower shields, shield combat, and discipline. The "fury" warriors are trained in dual-wielding weapons, harnessing bloodthirst, and raw aggression. There is just as much dichotomy between the two, as there is between running "opposing" social policies that seems to be nearly ruining your life. Thankfully in both cases allowing both to co-exist makes things, shockingly, fun.
 
For Gods sake Ahriman you don't know that! You just made something up and ranting about it. Stop speculating! You just assumed that might be the case and act like it is so... The ability to make something up and then actually believe in it is astonishing.
 
No its not, because you can get any combination of them you like. Serfdom AND slavery AND emancipation. Mercantilism and Free market AND state property. In Civ4 you can only have one civic from each category. That no longer appears to be true, if we're correctly interpreting their statements.
Exactly more choices=more options.... if I get Mercantilism+Free Market+State Property Then I am giving up Slavery+Serfdom+Emancipation... and Every Other combination of 3 policies.

No you can't. Electing Kennedy's and bushes, or Nehrus and Ghandis doesn't make you a monarch.
A monarch, by definition, is not elected. it is hereditary.
What if you always elected the eldest Bush? it was 'understood'... what if you have a one party state where the party machinery so dominates elections that the party leader essentially chooses thir successor... (but they do that in part on getting someone with sufficient popularity to maintain the overwhelming dominance of the party)
If the ruler is chosen by election, they aren't really a monarch. If they're inherited and can't be removed from office except by force, then they're not a democracy.
The question is not just what the 'Rules' are the question is what the Society is like (the 'unwritten rules')... If the monarchs followed public opinion pols in what way is society really different from a democracy. What if you only elected Vice-Presidents and Presidents had life terms...is that a Monarchy or a Democracy... (actually that was how dome early german tribes Transitioned from 'democracy' to 'monarchy')

Yes, both of these are Free religion. What's your point?
Religiously France is Very different from the US even though both are "Free Religion" that's because the US is Free religion + Organized Religion or Theocracy. (or France is Free Religion+Secularism... depending on which you think is a benefit)

It is NOT just laws

Being free religion isn't about the beliefs of the population, its about the policy of the government. You can either allow people to practice their own religion, or you can forbid it; you can't do both at once.
Yes but the beliefs of the population are just as if not more important than the policies of the government
The US was 'racially equal' legally by 1870...it wasn't Significantly 'racially equal' until the 1970s-1990s


You can't imagine what is logically impossible. Can you imagine an even odd number?
No but I can imagine a number that is "evenish oddish"... say 14 (is even but doesn't work well with the decimal system) or 5 (is odd but works nicely in the decimal system)

If you have the 'democracy' social policy that does not mean your Government is democratic, in the strict definition, it means your society is democratic, ie LIKE a democracy in important ways. Whether your society/government actually IS a democracy is IRRELEVANT it is a game, not a realism simulator.
 
Wouldn't it be reasonable to hold off on such resounding and long-winded critiques until we have a clear understanding of how it works?
I have said, repeatedly, that I might be wrong here, and that we don't know the full picture.

But IF policies all stack, then their only options are to:
a) have players able to benefit simultaneously from policies that cannot be logically combined OR
b) not have any policies that cannot logically be combined with others - which excludes many of the most interesting potential social policies, like free speech, censorship, monarchy, democracy, free trade, mercantilism, serfdom, slavery, oligarchy, quality-focused army, quantity-focused army, etc. etc. etc.

I don't think its unreasonable to see a problem with this, as long as its suitably caveated (as I have nearly every post) with noting that we don't have the full picture yet.

These "protection" warriors are trained in the use of tower shields, shield combat, and discipline. The "fury" warriors are trained in dual-wielding weapons, harnessing bloodthirst, and raw aggression. There is just as much dichotomy between the two, as there is between running "opposing" social policies that seems to be nearly ruining your life.
Nonsense.

There is no logical contradiction in being good at both good training with shields, and good training with dual weapons.
Presumably you'll be better at one if you specialize, but there's no logical reason to not be able to use both (though if you only have two arms you can't really use a large shield and two weapons at once - so I bet some of the abilities *are* mutually exclusive).
[As to whether there is a logical contradiction between using "fury" and using "discipline", that somewhat depends on the metaphysics of the universe in question.]

But there *is* a logical contradiction between "power rests with a hereditary ruler" and "power rests with a commercial elite" and "power rests with a group of people elected by the population". Because not everyone can have power at once - or they don't really have power.
Similarly, there is a logical contradiction between having censorship and a free press.

* * *
Edit:
Exactly more choices=more options.... if I get Mercantilism+Free Market+State Property Then I am giving up Slavery+Serfdom+Emancipation... and Every Other combination of 3 policies.
But mercantilism + free trade is a logical contradiction! Mercantilism is, by definition, not free trade!

What if you always elected the eldest Bush? it was 'understood'... what if you have a one party state where the party machinery so dominates elections that the party leader essentially chooses thir successor...
If there is no choice to elect anyone but the Party, then its not a democracy. China is not a Democracy. Iraq under Saddam Hussein was not a democracy. A democracy means that there is meaningful choice by voters. If all they can do is rubber-stamp, then they don't actually have any real power.

in what way is society really different from a democracy.
If the monarch is *required by law* to implement only those policies that people vote on, then the monarch has no power and so it isn't really a monarch.

If the monarch can ignore the population and do what he likes, then even if he sometimes holds polls, it isn't a democracy because the public doesn't get to choose the policies or the person who does.

Also, can you please provide a historic example of a monarch who only implemented policies based on public elections?

religiously France is Very different from the US
... yes, but religious *policy* by the government is very similar.
When you choose a policy you aren't choosing "how religious are my people?", you're choosing what the government attitude to religion will be. That's why its a policy.

Organized Religion or Theocracy.
The US is not organized religion or theocracy. There is no state church that people have to be members of or support, and religious leaders have no say in the running of the country. Suggesting otherwise is absurd.

No but I can imagine a number that is "evenish oddish"... say 14 or 5
14 is even, 5 is odd. How are either 14 or 5 "evenish oddish".

If you have the 'democracy' social policy that does not mean your society fits the strict definition of democracy....it means your society is LIKE a democracy in important ways.
Sure. But it is impossible to be both like a democracy in important ways AND like a monarchy in important ways, because the important thing is whose preferences get implemented as policy.
 
Is it possible looking back over the last 10,000 years of history and the last 10 years of modding that Sid wanted to give us a Civ game where a human can have a little more freedom in "forming" ones own perspective of history? Each edition has opened up more possibilities to do that. The rigid structure of 6 governments is now gone. In fact it is easier now for the human to mess things up and the AI to maybe get it right.

In Jon Shafer's reply in the link from post #63 provided by Ahriman, he also pointed out "most of them requiring the player be in a particular era to utilize" While one will be able to "progress" the emphasis is placed on this: "Rather than having to switch out of one policy to adopt another, you build upon the policies already unlocked. The thought process we want to promote is "What cool new effect do I want?" rather than the feeling of needing to perform detailed analysis to determine if switching is a good idea." It sounds like the developers are allowing us options to recreate history in a different way even if it seems illogical.
 
... yes, but religious *policy* by the government is very similar.
When you choose a policy you aren't choosing "how religious are my people?", you're choosing what the government attitude to religion will be. That's why its a policy.

You ARE choosing 'how religious are my people'... look at that list, Piety, Honor, Tradition
These are Social policies.
This is Civ... you are not the government, you are the entire civilization

You get to choose what types of fairy tales parents tell their kids at night, even if you decide the 'Government' can't do that.

You get to decide you your Society evolves by spending culture (those fairy tales)

How can you have Free Speech and control what is researched?
How can you have Free Religion and build Missionaries?
How can you have Free Market and decide what cities build with ALL of their production?

How can you be the government and trigger a Revolution?
And still be in control afterwards?


Sure. But it is impossible to be both like a democracy in important ways AND like a monarchy in important ways, because the important thing is whose preferences get implemented as policy.
Not in civ, since the player's preferences are always what gets 'implemented as policy'

Look at the Benefits from the different governments in Civ 1-4 do they have Anything to do with different groups of society implementing policy... except for the "Senate forces peace" they don't.

They are logically related to that... but
Why couldn't a Democracy have -50% War Weariness and +25% Military Production???
Why couldn't a Bureaucracy have +2 Happy from Barracks and +25% Espionage??
Why couldn't a Free Market have no Distance Maintenance???
 
Yes, both of these are Free religion. What's your point? You couldn't have Free Religion *and* have a State church that everyone was required to be a member of, or free religion and be a democracy.
[England isn't State Church anymore, Anglicanism is not required by the government, it too is free religion.]

Being free religion isn't about the beliefs of the population, its about the policy of the government. You can either allow people to practice their own religion, or you can forbid it; you can't do both at once.

If you look at England in the Middle Ages it certainly wasn't a Free Religion however you could be a Catholic or Jew and you wouldn't be persecuted. A few bad Monarchs did give the Catholics a bad time but this was always overturned once their successor took the crown.

On the subject of Britain. You could say that the UK is a monarchy and a democracy simultaneously so more than likely timtofly is right in his assumption.
 
Why couldn't a Democracy have -50% War Weariness and +25% Military Production???
Why couldn't a Bureaucracy have +2 Happy from Barracks and +25% Espionage??
Why couldn't a Free Market have no Distance Maintenance???

You make a good point.

Personally I'm not too bothered that you can receive the benefits of dissimilar social policies simultaneously. I'm more concerned by this apparent allusion that as you progress down a branch you retain the benefits of previous policies along that branch.

So, for example, you may have racked up 5 policies each with a 30-50% increase in production. Imagine that.

Perhaps as you progress through the 'ages' (i.e. Stone Age, Bronze Age, etc.?) benefits are lost?
 
You make a good point.

Personally I'm not too bothered that you can receive the benefits of dissimilar social policies simultaneously. I'm more concerned by this apparent allusion that as you progress down a branch you retain the benefits of previous policies along that branch.

So, for example, you may have racked up 5 policies each with a 30-50% increase in production. Imagine that.

Perhaps as you progress through the 'ages' (i.e. Stone Age, Bronze Age, etc.?) benefits are lost?

I doubt that you would have the poilicies being that one dimensional... maybe one with +40% buildings, another with +30% units, 1 with +1 to certain improvements, one with +20% overall, and one with +2 for the city tile... something like that.
(look at the 20 civics, almost No overlap in what they do... except the +2 exp from Theo+Feudalism)
 
So, am I the only one who sees this new system as being very similar to the Colonization "Founding Fathers" mechanic (original and new)? Instead of "Liberty Bells", the currency is culture, and instead of famous figures of Colonial history who provide benefits, it is cultural features. But in many ways it is very similar.

In Colonization, you might get famous Congregationalist ministers from Boston *AND* Junipero Serra from the California Missons. These two figures are contrary to each other, but they reflect the complex and varied heritage of the Colonial proto-nation.

Similarly, if one gains "Aristocracy" in CiV, and later on gains "Democracy", maybe the society no longer has a dominating landed class, but the ancient "Tradition" (as it were) still plays a part in the psyche of the culture. So, it might not be helpful to think of these policies as "government", per se, but as the cultural heritage of the civilization, which can be multiform and complex.

Think, for example, of Classical Greece. Both the Totalitarian regime of Sparta and the Democratic ideals of Athens are part of Greece's heritage, though they were not active at the same time in the same place. We just don't know how this works, but maybe having wildly contradictory policies will increase the odds of revolts or even civil wars (that would be interesting).

I can easily imagine a democratic-Monarchy. There is a strong hereditary King, with certain rights, duties and powers, and a strong representative legislature, with different spheres of interest. Maybe not modern Britain, but Britain two hundred years ago would fall under this category.
 
EDIT: POSTED AT THE SAME TIME AS PARMANDUR. AGREE COMPLETELY, THOUGH!

Okay guys, here's my take based on a little reading and some guessing.

I think social policies are most like Founding Fathers in Colonization, meaning you can only afford some of them in the game and the challenge is to either save your great people points for a better founder later, or buy the first one you can to enjoy a smaller but more attainable benefit. So do you recruit Peter Minuet? If you do, you probably won't be able to get Lewis and Clark later, which provide a great benefit.

Or should you even to buy that founder at all, do they play into your long-term strategy. Like why would you buy Powhatan if you didn't plan on building missions and actively recruiting Natives? Or John Rolfe if you aren't planting tobacco?.

So the strategy is you are purchasing new policies with your culture, but if you spend for every new policy in that tree you won't be able to unlock the later ones. Say I'm in the Honor branch, and a new social policy let's me train more units with less iron resource. Well, if I have a ton of Iron resource, or plan on trading for/conquering more, maybe I don't spend my culture to unlock that policy. Maybe I save up and I can sooner purchase an honor policy that let's me build barracks in every city for 50 percent less hammers. Or I buy one that reduces war weariness because I'm going to be doing a LOT of fighting.

It sounds like you won't be able to physically produce enough culture to unlock every policy on each branch. You'll have to choose when and how to spend it, and if you blow it on the first policy you can afford you won't be able to purchase the better ones for a long time, if at all. It even says to build UTOPIA you need to complete 6 branches of the tree. There are ten branches. This indicates to me that you can't physically get every policy and its benefits unlocked because if you could, why not make UTOPIA require every tree filled? Even then, it sounds like filling six trees will take a lot of time and culture.

So the strategy isn't in the switching civics, it's wisely spending your culture to get certain social policies sooner or later. Do you go for quick benefits or save for long term while your opponent enjoys the early benefits? Do you spend on this policy or do wait for one that better fits your objectives? And what spending of culture will quickest allow you to build Utopia and win a culture victory? You may not need every policy in the Honor branch, but you may be willing to purchase them if you think Honor is one of the branches you can realistically complete to make Utopia later.

It sounds like more strategy then ever before.
 
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