[Speculation] Indonesia/Majapahit/Srivijaya

The question is how would you choose one over the other? Srivijaya or Majahapit? Buddhist or Hindu? Sumatra or Java? Or if they choose an amalgamated "Indonesia" civ would it have to be lead by a modern Indonesian leader? These questions suggest to me it could be none of the above. Too many loose ends.

Scaramanga said:

The question is how would you choose one over the other? Srivijaya or Majahapit? Buddhist or Hindu? Sumatra or Java? Or if they choose an amalgamated "Indonesia" civ would it have to be lead by a modern Indonesian leader? These questions suggest to me it could be none of the above. Too many loose ends.

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They could simply do what they already did with India or China - have some pan-Indonesian Indonesia civ, except with the focus on the medieval states like Srivijaya and Majapahit.

So you'd have Hayam Wuruk or Gajah Mada as leader, with UUs/UBs focusing on that era. Not too much a stretch in my opinion.

Scaramanga said:

The question is how would you choose one over the other? Srivijaya or Majahapit? Buddhist or Hindu? Sumatra or Java? Or if they choose an amalgamated "Indonesia" civ would it have to be lead by a modern Indonesian leader? These questions suggest to me it could be none of the above. Too many loose ends.

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Firaxis will probably go for the name Indonesia and the civ will have aspect of both Srivijaya, Majahapit and maybe the modern state. As for religion, I wouldn't be surprised if Firaxis makes them Muslim since Islam is the dominant religion in Indonesia today(similar to how Carthage and Babylon have Islam as favourite religion in G&K).

cybrxkhan said:

They could simply do what they already did with India or China - have some pan-Indonesian Indonesia civ, except with the focus on the medieval states like Srivijaya and Majapahit.

So you'd have Hayam Wuruk or Gajah Mada as leader, with UUs/UBs focusing on that era. Not too much a stretch in my opinion.

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Yeah I could see that but it would harder to pull off with Indonesia since there's no Indonesian counterpart for Ghandi and China has had a much more continuous identity. The array of islands composing Indonesia makes for varied cultural narratives. If anything they resemble Polynesia's form in Civ. It's worth noting the Indonesian influence on Madagascar.

Scaramanga said:

Yeah I could see that but it would harder to pull off with Indonesia since there's no Indonesian counterpart for Ghandi and China has had a much more continuous identity. The array of islands composing Indonesia makes for varied cultural narratives. If anything they resemble Polynesia's form in Civ. It's worth noting the Indonesian influence on Madagascar.

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So there you have it - there's already a precedent with Polynesia. I'd argue the Celts would also be a similar situation - a grouping of a number of different, but admittedly related, cultures spread across a wide area and a wide historical period (ranging from ancient antiquity with Boadicea and all, to the modern, with the Céilidh hall). Indeed it isn't too good, but it is what it is. Perhaps if they chose a more specific empire like Srivijaya and Majapahit we can avoid this, but what not.

Scaramanga said:

The question is how would you choose one over the other? Srivijaya or Majahapit? Buddhist or Hindu? Sumatra or Java? Or if they choose an amalgamated "Indonesia" civ would it have to be lead by a modern Indonesian leader? These questions suggest to me it could be none of the above. Too many loose ends.

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Indonesia/Majapahit are famous because they were able to successfully tie together these so-called loose ends into one empire. "Too many loose ends" is hardly a valid argument

Art Grin said:

Firaxis will probably go for the name Indonesia and the civ will have aspect of both Srivijaya, Majahapit and maybe the modern state. As for religion, I wouldn't be surprised if Firaxis makes them Muslim since Islam is the dominant religion in Indonesia today(similar to how Carthage and Babylon have Islam as favourite religion in G&K).

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Personally, I think that the devs will go for Buddhism or Hinduism, since they both have few representatives, and they'ed probably spring at the chance to use them more, although I guess it depends on what time period they focus on.

HeraldtheGreat said:

Personally, I think that the devs will go for Buddhism or Hinduism, since they both have few representatives, and they'ed probably spring at the chance to use them more, although I guess it depends on what time period they focus on.

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Agreed.., Buddhism for Malays Srivijaya, Hinduism for Javanese Majapahit (the strongest candidate), or Islam for the modern Indonesia..

IMHO, the Indonesian region is deserved to get more than one civ.. But the slot for the new SE Asian civ is very limited..
So, choosing the civ which had uniting the Indonesian region is the best choice for now..
I hope in Civ VI we will get the SE Asia scenario and more SEA civs..

And for now, lets choose the symbol which represent them..

3 more asians ... Indonesia, Assyria, Timurids : there you go !

Here is it.., the monarchs who are suitable to become the Indonesian leader in my version..

Srivijayan Era :
- Dharmasetu : An 8th century maharaja of Srivijaya. Under his reign, he successfully incorporated Pan Pan, a kingdom located in the north of the Malay Peninsula into Srivijayan sphere of influence before 775 AD.
- Samaratungga : The head of the Sailendra dynasty who ruled Central Java and Srivijaya in the 8th and the 9th century. During his administration, he initiated the construction of a massive Buddhist monument Borobudur.

Majapahitan Era:
- Wijaya : The founder and the first monarch of Majapahit empire. His rule was marked by the victory against the army of Kublai Khan's Yuan Dynasty of the Mongol empire.
- Tribhuwana : A Javanese queen regnant and the third monarch of the Majapahit empire. She appointed Gajah Mada as prime minister and pursued massive expansion of the empire.
- Gajah Mada : A powerful military leader and mahapatih or prime minister of the Majapahit Empire, credited with bringing the empire to its peak of glory.

I'd say they'll either use Wijaya, because founding fathers are always a good choice and because he defeated the Mongols, or Tribhuwana, because Firaxis likes to have many female leaders.
Another thought I had was surrounding the religion they'd go for. I said they'd probably pick Islam, but now I think they'll go for something else.
They should probably pick Hinduism as Indonesia's preferred religion, since India is the only Hindu civ right now and it's harder to find Hindu civs then Buddhist ones. One thing that also speaks against Indonesia getting Islam is that we have Assyria in-game, who will most likely have Islam as their favourite religion. I could also see Firaxis adding more then one South-East Asian civ and the other good choices for that region Vietnam/Burma are both Buddhist, which makes it more logical to have Indonesia as Hindu civ for the sake of religious diversity.

Tribhuwana would be a good choice - especially since they want female leaders.

What would actually be a good UU for Indonesia?
What characterized the warfare of the Majapahit or Srivijaya?

Art Grin said:

What would actually be a good UU for Indonesia?
What characterized the warfare of the Majapahit or Srivijaya?

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Who knows? There's a real lack of any uniqueness about this potential civ other than "being from Indonesia". At least Polynesia had Maori Warriors and Easter Island heads. There's no "marquee" unit, building or ability that would sufficiently entertain me at this point (it's a game, don't judge me ). Borobudur is pretty awe-inspiring but unfortunately Wonders are not directly associated with Civs. I'm sure I'll gain some perspective from an Indonesian but I'll resent it if they're shoehorned in.

Scaramanga said:

Who knows? There's a real lack of any uniqueness about this potential civ other than "being from Indonesia". At least Polynesia had Maori Warriors and Easter Island heads. There's no "marquee" unit, building or ability that would sufficiently entertain me at this point (it's a game, don't judge me ). Borobudur is pretty awe-inspiring but unfortunately Wonders are not directly associated with Civs. I'm sure I'll gain some perspective from an Indonesian but I'll resent it if they're shoehorned in.

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When I was doing some reading, trying to figure out what the heck people make such a big deal out of Indonesia for, I came to the same conclusion. The only thing I could figure is that they'd get a naval UU and a land UU that has something to do with Krys knives. I could also see them getting a special settler to represent how they colonized on Madagascar.

The civ suggestions for those civ have been concentrating on a "archipelago" theme, a civ that works best with cities on lots of islands. That sounds like a start to build something around. Starting with the gameplay, I can see a UA with bonuses on sea ressources and (internal?) naval trade routes, one coastal unique (a ship or a harbour/seaport UB) and one "tagged upon" land UU.

Knowing nothing of the region, I recognized the strange knife represented above (the Kris). I can see them doing a Unique Unit on that, or at least it's my primary candidate for a civ symbol. There are too many sword UU already, but that hasn't stopped them (see Byzantine Cataphract).

Scaramanga said:

Who knows? There's a real lack of any uniqueness about this potential civ other than "being from Indonesia". At least Polynesia had Maori Warriors and Easter Island heads. There's no "marquee" unit, building or ability that would sufficiently entertain me at this point (it's a game, don't judge me ). Borobudur is pretty awe-inspiring but unfortunately Wonders are not directly associated with Civs. I'm sure I'll gain some perspective from an Indonesian but I'll resent it if they're shoehorned in.

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it's really just a matter of exposure. i'm sure for most people around the world who don't study western culture that there's no uniqueness to the greeks, no uniqueness to americans, etc, when compared to what they've learned. so you can't really say something like this just because you can't stereotype a visual in your head

(which i'm not really trying to knock you for by the way. the game has a lot to do with what is marketable, but at the same time i smh when people downplay certain civs just because they don't know about them. i saw the same thing happen with songhai when they were announced as a civ despite the fact that the songhai were really unique, influential)

Art Grin said:

What would actually be a good UU for Indonesia?
What characterized the warfare of the Majapahit or Srivijaya?

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Considering that Indonesian is an archipelagic area.., I dare say we will get the naval UU..
Unfortunately.., information about detail of Srivijaya/Majapahit naval warfare is very little and scattered (at least for me) despite their accomplishment, launching many of naval expeditions..
I found a great ebook about Southeast Asian Past.. Indonesian naval is featured in the last chapter..

Various units that will be likely become the Indonesian UU :
- Javanese "Jong" Ship

Majapahit navy and later Javanese kingdoms use jong ship, a large ship with three or four screens. The entire hull was built without using nails. Mentioned by Portuguese at Demak era (successor of Majapahit), Javanese jong has four masts, made of four layered board. The weight average jung 600 tons, surpassing the Portuguese warships. Jong bulk's weight reached 1,000 tons are used as troop carriers.

Also they also have fire-arms and cannonade as a feature of warfare. The Javanese bronze breech-loaded swivel-gun, known as a cetbang/bedil/rentaka was used ubiquitously by the Majapahit navy.

Spoiler Pictures :

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- Malays "Lanchara" Ship

Malay vessels, primarily known as lanchara, were small, single square-rigged vessels steered by two oars mounted in the stern.

Spoiler Picture :

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- Buginese "Pinisi" Ship

The pinisi or phinisi is a traditional Indonesian two-masted sailing ship. The first pinisi ships are said to have been built after the example of the Dutch "pinas" (pinnace) introduced to the region by the V.O.C. around 1600. These probably carried lateen or other type of sails, as the modern schooner rig did not become prominent before the 19th century.
Traditional Buginese lontara manuscripts and stories document the use of pinisi by Buginese for transport, as a sailing boat, and a warship.

Spoiler Picture :

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Actually, there are dozen of ship types in Indonesia.. But they lack of description text especially in english..

Beside naval UU, they can use Malays "Laksamana" as Indonesian Great Admiral..

The Laksamana is a position within the armed forces, similar to the position of admiral in Malay people sultanates and in present-day countries like Malaysia and Indonesia. The word Laksamana originated from Lakshmana, a figure in the Hindu epic of Ramayana.

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Majapahit itself have an elite force of soldiers similiar to Persian Immortal.. Their name is "Bhayangkara".. They fought using pencak silat technique, Indonesian indigenous martial arts.. They are also carry a kris in their back for the last resort..

Scaramanga said:

Who knows? There's a real lack of any uniqueness about this potential civ other than "being from Indonesia". At least Polynesia had Maori Warriors and Easter Island heads. There's no "marquee" unit, building or ability that would sufficiently entertain me at this point (it's a game, don't judge me ). Borobudur is pretty awe-inspiring but unfortunately Wonders are not directly associated with Civs. I'm sure I'll gain some perspective from an Indonesian but I'll resent it if they're shoehorned in.

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Well.., not really..
If we use a group of people as an UU.., then Indonesia will have more than 300 UUs..


And that's applied to their UB too..

@AessaSH, that's a lot of really great info. I wish you (and others) would participate in the Ideas & Suggestions forum to help put together ideas for new civ's.

Here's an idea I posted over in the "Civ's/Leaders Wanted" thread.


INDONESIA/MAJAPAHIT

Leader: Hayam Wuruk.
Capital: Jakarta (modern Indonesia)/Trowulan (classical empire)
UA: Domineering Presence. +15 to influence resting point with city-states that border Indonesia/Majapahit. Bordering tiles can be demanded as tribute (-15 for one tile).
UB: Candi. Replaces shrine. +1 culture for each religion with followers in the city.
UU: Cetbang Warship. Replaces galleas. Has +20% against city-states, and when near a city-state demands for tribute generate +50% more gold.

THEMES
Majapahit had about a hundred tributary states under its thumb, so the "X's" that this civ focuses on are expand and exploit. Get your borders to adjoin city-states, and then exploit them. Being able to demand tiles addresses a common problem with demanding tribute: sure, you get gold but the influence loss works against an alliance that will grant access to their resources. Go ahead and demand those resource tiles.

The red-brick candi temples are the most identifiable remnants of Indonesia's former empires. Theirs was a syncretic people, and they embraced both Hinduism and Buddhism, and later Islam would be proselytized there as well before becoming the dominant religion through conquest. So, the temple actually encourages the presence of multiple religions through extra culture, and that extra culture facilitates expansion of borders.

The cetbang was a type of cannon which gave Majapahit its edge on all the tributaries who might think of stepping out of line. As such, it's an effective tool for exploitation, and promotes that thalassocratic that some folks feel is vital to represent.

Here are some alternate uniques for considration:

UA: Overlord. Pledges of protection provide a +20 increase to the :c5ifnluence: influence resting point with city-states (instead of +10).
UB: Wayang Theatre. Replaces colosseum. +2 , +2 culture:
UB: Candi Temple (an alternate candi). Replaces temple. Cities with a candi can spend faith to purchase tiles (same cost as spending gold).
UU: Silat Swordsman. Replaces swordsman. Units wounded by a Silat Swordsman heal with only 50% effectiveness. This effect ends once the unit heals to full health.

steveg700:Good ideas, but I for myself wuld like some mix of trade/culture/religion better.
I like your silat swordasman idea, but maybe it should be Bhayangkara Guard(with the same boni) Cause the used Kerises too.And in times of war everyone had carried 3 Kerises.

About the Coat of Arms:I think it should be a Surya Majapahit and as for colours I would like these:http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Thomas68/Majapahit_in_Civ_V