What balance changes are you hoping for?

Certainly it is. If every belief was more or less equal there wouldn't be the race to found a religion like there is now.

Regarding the random chance to spawn Prophets, it's in place to prevent too many religions from being founded at the same time (eg, if three civs without faith bonuses go pottery first -> build shrine ASAP there would be three religions founded on the same turn).

There would certainly still be a race to found a religion because you still have to *get* one of the limited slots in the first place. There are just some beliefs that are so bad that not even the 5th religion/8th pantheon would pick them(Religious Unity, Papal Primacy, Religious Settlements). Being able to pick whatever you want if you manage the first religion isn't that big a deal when 50% of the options blow. Enhancing is the same thing. The AI often takes options that work for them but not the player anyway because of their insane bonuses(who need IP/Religious texts when you have 500 Prophets), so you can still get the strong beliefs.

Also, there are lots of other variables with the prophet founding. How many cities did the civs build shrines in, did they build Temples, did they meet/ally religious CSes, are they working faith wonders, did they take a faith-generating Pantheon, etc.? I really can't imagine 3 civs frequently generating a prophet on exactly the same turn with all those variables.
 
The balance change I want to see the most is the removal of the randomness of generating great prophets.
Oh yes, this nonsense has to go. :bowdown:

Speaking of getting stuck with the crappy beliefs when I'm the last one to found and/or enhance, I feel all the beliefs need a balance pass or three.
Also agree. Petra+DF combo will get nerfed, however if it's the only balance change to be applied to beliefs system, it's not enough.


Man am I going to have to do a Washington LP to get people to stop bashing America? :(
Yep. :p

The issue becomes the 4th policy costing as much as the first 3 combined, which delays things significantly. Opening with Citizenship means you end up waiting a long time for Collective Rule, possibly too long for it to even matter. If you go Collective Rule, you have to wait a long time for the Citizenship worker which slows down getting your luxuries up in your newer cities. That can really delay growing your capital that extra citizen or two which can be really important(and is part of why I think the Dutch UA is underestimated).
And for the same reason switching Republic and CR again will take us back to vanilla days and Liberty OP'ness. It's not only one free settler, it's the free one plus half of all subsequent settlers. Do you really think that having 4 cities at t35 without selling any resources (means bought workers/granaries/libraries) will help to even things out?

Speaking of balancing Liberty and Tradition I'd rather have Engineering requirement for free aqueducts.
 
The randomness of great prophet generation instills a belief in divine intervention ;).

No, it instills a belief that the devs think frustration = fun, just because both words start and end with the same letters.
 
Certainly it is. If every belief was more or less equal there wouldn't be the race to found a religion like there is now.

Regarding the random chance to spawn Prophets, it's in place to prevent too many religions from being founded at the same time (eg, if three civs without faith bonuses go pottery first -> build shrine ASAP there would be three religions founded on the same turn).

I disagree on both points.

If all beliefs were balanced, there is still a race to find a religion. The most important part about finding a religion to me has always been being the first to exert your pressure. Many of the gain X faith/culture/happiness for X amount of citizens in X territory rely on this. The later religions are usually very weak and have trouble spreading passed your borders.

Right now its all about getting the only really helpful beliefs (our rankings)
The beliefs should be more about creating different interesting religious gameplay styles. I believe this is done pretty well so far (between warfare, happiness, production etc bonuses), just needs balancing/potential updates for BnW mechanics.

Finding any of the limited amounts of religion should be a big benefit compared to those that don't, not just for the first civ to pick Tithe (the main imbalance, in my opinion).



Regarding random chance being a mechanic to prevent simultaneous findings. That is just wrong. First of all, pantheon beliefs would be the mechanic in which simultaneous findings occur and there are currently hard limits to reach for pantheons 10,15, etc. Once multiple civs discover pantheons (like desert foklore) that gives faith, build any mix of faith buildings/UB's, or settle a natural faith wonders, there is already a very slim chance two civs hit 200 on the same exact turn because a disparity in faith point per turn.

EDIT: Looks like I replied without seeing the page 5 responses. Some of my points have been touched by other members already.
 
There are just some beliefs that are so bad that not even the 5th religion/8th pantheon would pick them(Religious Unity, Papal Primacy, Religious Settlements).

Hey, speak for yourself. I'd be delighted to see the devs add a few more beliefs of each type, but I wouldn't mind it either if they left things basically as they are. Religious Settlements is pretty weak, but if you're late to found a pantheon and expect a foreign religion to overrun your civ before you can get your own up and running, it's not the worst choice. Papal Primacy and Religious Unity are decent, and obviously stronger as a combination. If you're stuck taking Papal Primacy, it's hardly the end of the world, and it encourages you to try other underused beliefs (e.g. Religious Unity) and try out different strategies.
 
Papal Primacy is excellent if you are surrounded with several city states, take that along with Religious Texts, and stack it with Protection and Patronage policy and you can have yourself good friends, as well as free units, culture, faith, happiness etc., not to mention you will need only about 250-500 to keep allies to buy them out.
 
@monado, LC, et al
All I was saying was that these aspects of religion design are working as intended (monado said they weren't) and offering explanations as to the reasons behind the design decisions. I don't disagree that they could be improved upon.
 
The problem there is that with Aesthetics and Pledge to Protect you've already got them as friends anyway, and it just takes a whole lot of effort to spread your religion all over the place to those city-states and keep it there especially with AI religions pressuring it out(or murdering the CSes :lol) the further away you go.

I can't justify taking Papal Primacy over most any of the founder beliefs, honestly. If I was going domination then maybe I'd pass on World Church/Pilgrimage since those only work in enemy cities, but still.
 
The problem there is that with Aesthetics and Pledge to Protect you've already got them as friends anyway, and it just takes a whole lot of effort to spread your religion all over the place to those city-states and keep it there especially with AI religions pressuring it out(or murdering the CSes :lol) the further away you go.

I can't justify taking Papal Primacy over most any of the founder beliefs, honestly. If I was going domination then maybe I'd pass on World Church/Pilgrimage since those only work in enemy cities, but still.

I'm sory, but you seem to have not read what I said.

I said Papal Primacy is perfect if you got city states AROUND you, like 4-5 which can happen, THEN you take Papal Primacy :rolleyes:
 
I understand the beef with iron, but Iron is also useful for certain naval units not only the swordsman etc, so its not so useless as it seems.

There would certainly still be a race to found a religion because you still have to *get* one of the limited slots in the first place. There are just some beliefs that are so bad that not even the 5th religion/8th pantheon would pick them(Religious Unity, Papal Primacy, Religious Settlements). Being able to pick whatever you want if you manage the first religion isn't that big a deal when 50% of the options blow. Enhancing is the same thing. The AI often takes options that work for them but not the player anyway because of their insane bonuses(who need IP/Religious texts when you have 500 Prophets), so you can still get the strong beliefs.

While I agree with the context, I don't agree overall. If you are the last or of the last batch to find a religion you pretty much are guaranteed to see no game changing use of it, regardless of beliefs. Yes there are a couple of passives that are awesome but if you cant work a large faith generation the whole system is a waste no mater the beliefs. You are good off with a good pantheon in either case.

And for the same reason switching Republic and CR again will take us back to vanilla days and Liberty OP'ness. It's not only one free settler, it's the free one plus half of all subsequent settlers. Do you really think that having 4 cities at t35 without selling any resources (means bought workers/granaries/libraries) will help to even things out?

That would certainly beef things too much. If you can have 4 cities up and running by turn 100 it pretty much means you won the game. But also don't disregard civil service. Its not only the worker but also a reduction in improvement times which IMHO is very important.
 
I'm sory, but you seem to have not read what I said.

I said Papal Primacy is perfect if you got city states AROUND you, like 4-5 which can happen, THEN you take Papal Primacy :rolleyes:

No, I read just fine, including the post directly above yours that I was replying to.

Taking a religion for a few city-states near you is a waste since you're very likely going to be allied with most of them anyway to stop AIs from suddenly having a bunch if inits on your borders via CS armies. What's the point of a higher resting point when you have +100 influence? How is rhat worth passing up the other beliefs?
 
@monado, LC, et al
All I was saying was that these aspects of religion design are working as intended (monado said they weren't) and offering explanations as to the reasons behind the design decisions. I don't disagree that they could be improved upon.

What I was offering in this "hoping for" thread, was my view on why two mechanics of religion are imbalanced and I would like to see changed. What you said that the religious designs are working as intended. Then you replied with examples of conjecture, not explanations.

We obviously disagree on the necessity of potential fixes/balances, but please do not state your opinions like facts.
 
Reducing the strength of ranged attacks (all of them)..(siege units will be fine, they suffer more from being attacked than weak attacks)

Rebalancing religious beliefs (especially Pantheons.. a late Pantheon will be wiped out by a Religion anyways, so it should still provide a decent benefit)...Perhaps Theocracy Provides Inquisitors, and you can buy "Pantheonic Inquisitors" in cities with your Pantheon.

Improving Honor as a starting Policy (1/2 cost and or Free Exp buildings in there somewhere..possibly the Culture from conquered cities from the G+K autocracy opener)

Lancer promotes to Landship
AntiTank Guns built from scratch and use Gunship Promotions (Ambush and Movement rather than Shock and Drill)

.....won't be in the first release of BNW (because tech tree is known), but maybe in the first patch
readjusting the melee line
and
improving the early bottom line
ie
Iron Working: lower 1 level cost 195->105, requires Masonry..Swordsman strength 12?-14?
Longsword: Metal Casting (not Steel), Str 18?-20?
Forge: Steel (not metal casting) consumes 1 Iron, +1 Production, +1 Production per Iron and Copper worked, +25% production for military units


For straightening up promotion lines:
Chariot Archer upgrades to Crossbow
Keshik, Camel Archer upgrades to Gatling Gun



Papal Primacy, and Pledge to Protect should be changed to +20
(any 2 of Papal Primacy, Pledge to Protect, and Patronage Policy should be enough to maintain Friendship..all 3 gives you an ally If noone contests it)..give a bigger penalty for breaking Pledge to Protect if necessary

Improve Marine (possibly allow it to attack ?and capture? naval or embarked units while it is embarked) so that it is worth using.

Scouts should not give Warrior Caste/Oligarchy "Garrison bonuses"

Nukes should be more strategic, and MAD should be a possibility:
Effect:
No Units killed, instead -90% of unit hitpoints in blast range (Atomic Bomb=Blast Range 1, nuclear missile=Blast range 2)... to allow second strike
All Non-wonder Buildings eliminated (except Bomb Shelters and maybe Cultural ones... or a Bomb shelter can temporarily hold Great Works)
Population->1, If Bomb Shelter -40% pop (round up survivors)
Fallout on all non city land tiles in blast range: Fallout tiles= cannot be worked, -10% Growth, Production, Culture, Science in city per tile in range +1 :(

Nuclear missiles do Not Require Uranium: (to allow massive arsenals)
Instead, Nuclear Plants Require Uranium, and they are required to Build Nuclear Missiles (if your Uranium is Negative, the Plants do not Work)
Nuclear Missiles Cannot be Bought with money
Manhattan Project grants 1 free Atomic Bomb upon Discovery of Nuclear Fission
Nuclear missiles gain Range=40 with Satellites
 
What I was offering in this "hoping for" thread, was my view on why two mechanics of religion are imbalanced and I would like to see changed. What you said that the religious designs are working as intended. Then you replied with examples of conjecture, not explanations.

We obviously disagree on the necessity of potential fixes/balances, but please do not state your opinions like facts.

I admit my post wasn't clear, sorry about that. It's just that when G&K was released a year ago there was plenty of discussion about both these aspects of the religion design, and it was the consensus that the reasons I listed where the cause for the design. I obviously cannot prove that the devs had these ideas in mind when designing the mechanic, but 1) they put them in to begin with (it's immediately obvious that the beliefs are not equal in power) and 2) they haven't changed them so they must be happy with the status quo. Therefore they *are* "working as intended" unless the devs have no idea what they're doing and I don't believe that's the case. They're very intelligent people and understand the game deeply.

In any case I'm perfectly happy to drop the issue and won't derail the thread any more.:)
 
Reducing the strength of ranged attacks (all of them)

Rebalancing religious beliefs

Improving Honor as a starting Policy (1/2 cost and or Free Exp buildings in there somewhere)

.....won't be in the first release of BNW (because tech tree is known), but
readjusting the melee line
and
improving the early bottom line
ie
Iron Working: lower 1 level cost 195->105, requires Masonry..Swordsman strength 12-14
Longsword: Metal Casting (not Steel), Str 18-20
Forge: Steel (not metal casting) consumes 1 Iron, +1 Production, +1 Production per Iron and Copper worked, +25% production for military units

Since there is a "+ :c5happy: from all defensive buildings" Autocratic tenet (Fortified Borders), I'd like to see the Professional Army SP changed to include a free military building (Barracks, Armory, etc.) in the first 4 cities. Or if it's not too OP, in each city.

Also, the few times I've taken Honor as a starting tree, my economy went straight into the red as I built a few units. As money will become harder to come by in the early game in BNW, I think one of the first SP should be to make 4 units maintenance free.
 
I obviously cannot prove that the devs had these ideas in mind when designing the mechanic, but.... Therefore they *are* "working as intended"

In any case I'm perfectly happy to drop the issue and won't derail the thread any more.:)

Conjecture again.

Yeah, I"ll drop the issue. That and my opinion of you, both dropped.

EDIT:
I would like to see this change in upgrade paths as well!
For straightening up promotion lines:
Chariot Archer upgrades to Crossbow
Keshik, Camel Archer upgrades to Gatling Gun
 
Since there is a "+ :c5happy: from all defensive buildings" Autocratic tenet (Fortified Borders), I'd like to see the Professional Army SP changed to include a free military building (Barracks, Armory, etc.) in the first 4 cities. Or if it's not too OP, in each city.

Also, the few times I've taken Honor as a starting tree, my economy went straight into the red as I built a few units. As money will become harder to come by in the early game in BNW, I think one of the first SP should be to make 4 units maintenance free.

Professional Army is too late if Honor is an Opening SP, it should probably be Discipline (existing effect, +1 Free Exp building, + 1/2 cost Exp Buildings)

Perhaps substitute :) from Defensive Buildings for Gold.. and just get more Happiness from Garrisoned units
 
That would certainly beef things too much. If you can have 4 cities up and running by turn 100 it pretty much means you won the game. But also don't disregard civil service. Its not only the worker but also a reduction in improvement times which IMHO is very important.
You mean Citizenship. :) I definitely don't disregard it. On the contrary, I think all Liberty policies are good, while Oligarchy and Aristocracy is something I'd easily pass by.
 
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