'OCC' Deity Domination Discussion

I was specifically referring to the Hun's for such total dominance which is totally possible to end the game before chivalry.

As for the puppet science, I am not sure how it works. Doesn't science cost increase apply to the tech itself? So if a tech cost 100 then with 1 puppet the tech will cost 105. If your capital produces 100 science then your puppet will have to produce 5 to match it in order to still research the tech in 1 turn. But if your capital produces 50 then all your puppet has to do is produce 2.5 to still research the tech in 2 turns. But in the early mid game, you wouldn't get that much science from the capital.

Well, the Huns are obviously exceptional. :)

Yeah, that's how it works - as far as I can tell. My question was related to the cities you don't really own but raze immediately after capturing. Do they add costs and does it work the same as with culture? I.e. if you have capture a city, annex it and then raze, you will get penalty for SP costs. But afterwards if you capture/settle another city the costs will not increase one more time, since the max registered number of cities your own remains the same.
 
Btw, do costs increase for cities you raze too? Apparently, I never cared enough to notice. :crazyeye:

Yes and no. I tested this about half year ago and iirc it increases the cost during razing and drops back to normal after razing. So if you research new technology before city is razed you lose science but if it razed before researching new it doesnt matter.

Unfortunately I forgot to test puppet first and then annex raze or sell. But if you sell puppeted city your scince cost will drop back to normal
 
Yes and no. I tested this about half year ago and iirc it increases the cost during razing and drops back to normal after razing. So if you research new technology before city is razed you lose science but if it razed before researching new it doesnt matter.

Unfortunately I forgot to test puppet first and then annex raze or sell. But if you sell puppeted city your scince cost will drop back to normal

Thanks! This is very helpful. :) Good to know.
 
Well, the Huns are obviously exceptional. :)

Yeah, that's how it works - as far as I can tell. My question was related to the cities you don't really own but raze immediately after capturing. Do they add costs and does it work the same as with culture? I.e. if you have capture a city, annex it and then raze, you will get penalty for SP costs. But afterwards if you capture/settle another city the costs will not increase one more time, since the max registered number of cities your own remains the same.

I'm not sure how this works. I spent all day saturday shooting artillery at the Deity AI and at times I had 3 or 4 cities burning plus a puppet or two. I'm not sure what that did to my science. In the end I had 5 AI killed, but the geography kept me from finishing more than anything else. There were also times when I could not use aircraft because of range restrictions.

I'm still looking for a nice map that I think an immortal player would have a chance on and am leaning towards a Renaissance/Industrial run more than medieval.

But I also like Siam's Elephants.
 
I know you cant have a true OCC domination game unless you check the box. But I think this makes it a little too easy for the human if you do. So I would like to discuss how to approach an unchecked OCC pangea domination game on the highest level. I envision a scenario where you are raising any non caps as fast as you can and you are keeping only the caps as puppets. You cannot annex.

Which civ would you choose? I know Egypt and the Huns can clear a map petty quickly, but I think that could be an all or nothing proposition.

I have a civ in mind and if I can make it work with them I will issue a challenge map. In the mean time I would like to discuss other options.


The strategy for self-enforced "OCC" is not all that different from a standard chariot archer rush. The big exception being horses. If you don't have horses, your first capture is with composite bows, and that first captured capital better have horses, otherwise, you're doing a standard CB rush.

Standard CB rush is harder in OCC than chariot archer rush in general, and especially in OCC, because how quickly you reach Machinery actually matters, whereas with Chariot archers, you can pretty much ignore tech after the Wheel. Construction, Optics (and arguably Engineering) are the only techs you need beyond luxuries/strategics. (IMHO)

As this game demonstrates, chariot archer rush can work with any civ on Deity:

http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/game_info.php?dsply=&entryID=7609

However, again, horses are the key. If you want to start talking about "It has to work on any start", then I assume you're also talking about an OCC Deity strategy that somehow works with crappy no-resource starts? Because, there really isn't one...

But, like I said, "OCC" chariot archer rush works even without horses in the first city, as long as they're in the first capital you capture. It's arguably easier to take the first city with CBs, simply because you can upgrade to them, meaning:
* You don't need to improve a pasture as early.
* You don't need to beeline the wheel to (rush-buy) and start building them as early.
* You get archers earlier to help with barbs and CS quests.

The second point is big, because it frees you up to research luxuries, mining, bronzeworking, pottery, etc. before the wheel, frees up the worker to build farms/mines/improve luxuries/iron, and allows you to trade those horses for early gpt. If you really want to do a first-city CA rush, you need to beeline the wheel and you *must* have a worker by t25, which if you don't steal them, means you have to build one ASAP. On any level below Emperor, I do scout->monument->worker to ensure I get a pasture by the time I tech the Wheel. But on Deity, 2 scouts is better. More cash = more chariot archers.

I emphasize that chariot archer rush is entirely valid starting with CBs. This "blended" approach ends up working like so: You target the close opponents with your first army (CBs) and the far opponents with the chariot archers. You need a bigger CA army than usual, because, since your chariot archer army came second, they'll never have enough upgrades to hit logistics or range, and their first opponent will come on t70-t80. You beeline Machinery so that your CB army can upgrade by t130 or so for one last capture if necessary. Worst comes to worst, you join your armies for a kamikaze run on the last opponent. You go full liberty and use the closer to rush the Great Wall (if possible) to avoid fighting your way through it. Plus, this REALLY helps against barbarians, which will plague you throughout the game. If GW isn't there, consider planting a GS or spawning a GM to get a CS ally and some gold. Gold tends to become a real problem with "OCC" as your puppets are going to build granaries and water mills. Happiness also becomes a real problem, as you can't buy happiness buildings with faith. For this reason, I highly recommend pillaging all farms and replacing them with trading posts, and *staying* at -1 to -5 happiness to limit growth, if possible. Your CAs are excellent at doing barb quests, so you can usually solve this problem with mercantile CS allies, but trade away luxes to keep yourself at -1, then cancel the trade with a DoW if you lose the ally. Or build a fort on your only copy of a lux, and keep it one turn from completing the lux improvement. Staying at -1 will make everything much easier.

Lots more to this story, but CA "OCC" rush can be reliably accomplished sub-t150 with any civ. IMHO.
 
I'm not sure how this works. I spent all day saturday shooting artillery at the Deity AI and at times I had 3 or 4 cities burning plus a puppet or two. I'm not sure what that did to my science. In the end I had 5 AI killed, but the geography kept me from finishing more than anything else. There were also times when I could not use aircraft because of range restrictions.

I'm still looking for a nice map that I think an immortal player would have a chance on and am leaning towards a Renaissance/Industrial run more than medieval.

But I also like Siam's Elephants.

Due to the poor science that results from the self-enforced rule of not annexing, early rush is your best bet... IMHO.

However, I suppose if you got lucky and the enemy capitals were close enough, you could go full Tradition and send all trade routes to the capital for food, and rely on observatory/NC to help you keep up on Science... take 1-3 capitals with CBs, then beeline artillery. Your puppets will *eventually* build libraries. But, man. Tough row to hoe...
 
Due to the poor science that results from the self-enforced rule of not annexing, early rush is your best bet... IMHO.

However, I suppose if you got lucky and the enemy capitals were close enough, you could go full Tradition and send all trade routes to the capital for food, and rely on observatory/NC to help you keep up on Science... take 1-3 capitals with CBs, then beeline artillery. Your puppets will *eventually* build libraries. But, man. Tough row to hoe...

Thank you for the reply.

This was my first attempt. I started my artillery attack on exactly turn 200. Before then it was all OCC. There was no food going to my cap except for Maritimes or maybe religion. Would that I had it ready 20 turns earlier, and I probably could have. It was only map layout, and after awhile poor unit allocation against 2 fronts that denied me victory; a byproduct of playing sessions too long with out a break. The strategy was sound enough and I had great fun beating them down.

This is really what I have in mind for my challenge; an all out artillery attack. If you havent thought of a way to make it work, this challenge is for you!
 
My Deity challenge is ready. Too bad there are three other deity challenges on the board right now.:(

Unless there is overwhelming demand, I will hold onto it and post it in a few days.

The rules will be simple so you can remember them:

1. You may only build 1 city (your cap).
2. You must puppet all AI caps and immediately raise all other cities.
3. You must liberate a CS if you capture it from the AI. You cannot attack and keep a CS puppet.
4. You MAY build roads to connect to your puppets. You may repair pillaged tiles in your empire, but you may not improve any unimproved tiles except for forts.
5. You may NOT send any food caravans anywhere.
6. You may heal and upgrade in any friendly territory. You may base planes in any friendly city.
7. You may sell or trade any resources you acquire.

Its a little relaxed on the rules, but I want some immortal players to have a chance to defeat deity by conquest. The spirit of the game is conquest, not micro managing the puppet empire that you acquire.

I will repost the rules along with the map. I even remembered to take out the scrambled map DLC this time. :)
 
I don't understand why you said your version of OCC is more difficult than true OCC. The only problem I see is happiness and gold. But each cap has usually two unique lux so usually you won't run into happiness problems. Puppets actually will increase your science until industrial. Puppets also increases your unit limit.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
 
I don't understand why you said your version of OCC is more difficult than true OCC. The only problem I see is happiness and gold. But each cap has usually two unique lux so usually you won't run into happiness problems. Puppets actually will increase your science until industrial. Puppets also increases your unit limit.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

Perhaps the issue is open for debate. In my mind at least, if the OCC box is checked, then the enemy cap goes away and you no longer have to worry about defending it for the rest of the game.
 
Fast domination is the key to winning before the AI out-techs your current army. Razing all cities instantly has a HUGE impact on how fast you can capture cities. It's the difference between rebels spawning, -50% attack penalty, virtually zero science, negative gold, troops despawning, having to recapture cities... I could go on.

The point is, it is so so so much easier to do *early* rush with OCC checked.

Unquestionably, slow rush would be harder with OCC checked, because you can't use puppet cities to boost gold & unit supply cap.
 
With OCC checked, I'd probably go Honor for the free general, maybe Liberty for a free early worker.

Without OCC checked, I'd consider Tradition for the happiness from Monarchy.
 
Top Bottom