Urban warfare mod (Battle for New York reloaded)

Warning: large post ahead, Matrix and those with short atthention spans need only read the third, fourth, and last paragraphs

Some of you may remember last summer when I came up with the idea of a semi-sci-fi "urban warfare" mod, and started working on a scenario dealing with New York City. There was some interest in it, but only kulade, who has since returned to lurking (and may be reading this ), helped me create the mod/scenario. It soon died out, and I later lost most of the work I had done, including 2 versions of a map, in a HD crash.

Original Thread
BfNY Planning Thread

TO-DO LIST
GRAPHICS COMPILATION
Enough epic history, let's get to the point. I think this idea has potential. Escape from Zombie Island has been the only mod even remotely similar to this to reach completion, but it has been widely popular. That tells me 2 things: 1) This is hard to do, and may very well die out [again], but 2) if we can pull it off, people will play it.

What I am proposing is about as close to a full conversion as the editor will allow. I have most of the major concepts mapped out, or at least considered, but I'm still open to new ideas. Some things don't quite make sense because of game limitations, but I've done my best to make everything logical.

I wrote a background story, but it was long, complicated, and unbelievable. Basically, WW3 breaks out in the Middle East, Russia rebuilds the Soviet Union, and America falls apart. several groups battle for control of NYC, one of the last major cities unclaimed by invading Soviet forces. (The story could use work too, as long as I can keep all my civs I'm happy )

This is what the mod will look like:

Civs: (called Factions, names can be changed)
NYPD (or NY National Guard)- police state attempting to preserve order as region collapses
American Resistance Movement (ARM)- militia/patriot forces reorganizing America, seek alliance w police forces
some crazy cult group- massive new religious cult, wants to cleanse world of all unbelievers, uses suicide bombers and covert attacks, allies w nobody, yada yada yada
Undergound Alliance- large gang alliance, defies police, effectively runs inner city at beginning of game, can't match power of other factions later on
Neo-Soviets- most militarily powerful, invading from outside, smaller than normal force early on due to heavy fighting in region and long global "peacekeeping" war. (invading every weakened country including Americal, Canada, and EU)

Technology:
Technology will be treated very differently. Instead of scientific research, it will represent the industrial, commercial, and political development of a faction, as well as important events. For example, a tech may represent new National Guard units being deployed to the area, allowing the police force to build a new type of unit. I am also considering the use of special AI techs as in RFRE, to add a dynamic passing of time, giving the impression that the outside world is progressing and you are fighting against time. There will be a lot of civ-specific techs, because each faction will have a style of play and everything it does will enhance that.

Units:
Many units already made can be used for this mod, but more will doubtlessly have to be made. I'm sure there are many that I have overlooked. I don't have specific unit lines in place, just general ideas, so I can work in almost any appropriate unit. I need any modern/near future infantry units that don't look to "professional" or advanced. Think gang wars, terrorists, militia, mercs, and commies.
police/NG- expensive but good
ARM- average
cult- cheap, expendable (suicide and cannon fodder), no upkeep on some, but weak
gangs- cheap, average at first but don't get much stronger, lots of starting units
Soviets- very expensive and very strong, the best spawned (deployed to area), powerhouse later in game


Governments:
I think I'm going to go the WH route and give all factions locked governments to keep some control over diplomacy. I need discussion here.
police/NG- expensive upkeep, low corruption (I can hear the sarcastic comments already...), MP, no draft
ARM- lots of free units, moderate corruption, big draft, low MP, trade bonus
cult- xenophobic, low upkeep, no free units (forces to use crappy no-upkeep units as main force), high corruption, good spies/diplomats
gangs- high corruption, tile penalty (unorganized), no free units, generally bad gov

Terrain:
This is where I really need help. Little to no existing graphics are usable without some modification, except water and maybe some buildings. However, after many trial-and-error configurations, I came up with a setup that uses every terrain type: (I know there are some problems with certain LM terrains, but they are mostly optional)
Desert > Trees/foliage
LM > Grass
Plains > Road
LM > another road (flavor gfx- highway? brick?)
Grassland > concrete
LM > dirt
Tundra > impassable black emptiness (I'll explain this later)
Hills > medium sized buildings
LM > flavor
Mountains > tall buildings
LM > flavor
Marsh > small removable buildings
Forest > barricade (expensive worker action, imp. to wheeled, can be removed by engineers)
LM > rubble (imp. to wheeled, only light infantry can pass until removed by engineers)
Volcano > damaged tower, collapses slowly, spreading debris
Pollution > debris
River > concrete walls (I don't know how to explain the free city size 2, or what floodplains are)
Road > trade link, represented by arrows, no mp bonus
Mine > industry (need suggestions)
Irrigation > housing (food > population, "city" grows as locals join faction)
Disease > crime/resistance, causes desertion
Railroads > probably unused, may be used with Tundra secret

Did I forget anything?


As you can see, I have a lot of ideas (still more specifics that I haven't described yet), but I still need help. Specifically, I need:
1. a team of modders and artists
2. a map of the downtown NYC area (this can be disputed but I'm thinking this or this.
3. A new terrain set (I have some graphics skills but I can't make anything from scratch.)
4. UNITS (made or found, I'm not too picky)
5. interface grapics, not essential, but it would be nice

Is nobody interested?
I thought a new project would draw some attention after all the doom and gloom prophecy the last few weeks.

I'm very interested, but like the first line reads in your post...I'm too lazy to actually read the whole thing

Well, all you really need to know is that I need help making a near-future urban warfare mod.

I think it would be a cool idea. Won't be able to help with the development though. What's wrong with using the terrain Zombie Island used?

Alternate idea for rivers: power lines. Would give a half-way plausible rationale for better city growth (esp if the aqueduct replacement is a generator!), and why people are prone to settle next to them (floodplains).

Good idea TLC, except that leaves another loose end- why would a unit defending near power lines get a 50% bonus?
edit: speaking of floodplains, any ideas? Neither power lines nor walls would do much to a grassy area to make it more/less desirable.

Gunner, some of the ZI terrain could work, but this map will probably be on a smaller scale- tiles would be individual buildings and roads. OTOH, the scenario could be expanded to include the entire metro region, including parts of NJ and CT. Either way, I need more graphics- roads, multiple building types, overlays....

I guess a decision needs to be made about what area the map should cover. Should it be concentrated on Manhattan, or on a larger scale to include the surrounding areas?

Lots of interesting ideas Weasel Op. As for terrain I take it you've looked at both Kulade's and Juul's versions? An important terrain type (esp. if the map covers a larger area of NY which I'd prefer) are bridges - Juul said he would try to make these for me when he had some spare time. Of course, you could always put roads over coastal tiles since this is a scenario.

Actually I like TLC's power line idea and flood plains could be power stations. Terrain doesn't have to mirror the behaviour of the actual vanilla version - you just set a different combination of flags in the editor e.g. disease can be turned off. Rivers as power lines is a neat idea that could also be exp;oited in the "Must be near river" flag for Improvements - eg. generators and such as TLC mentioned. The defensive bonus on rivers can be set to 0 I think(?) which gets rid of that discrepancy. The one discrepancy that I can't explain and which can't be turned off (as far as I know) is the movement reduction across rivers - this is flagged on a tech in the vanilla version (Engineering / Construction) so you could just give everyone a free tech with this option and ignore the movement problem altogether.
Another idea for rivers is as Canals with flood plains as Sewage Plants?

I guess a decision needs to be made about what area the map should cover.

Click to expand...

I think you should base this decision on whatever would work best with a given terrain graphics. The zombie scenario terrain set looks great to me and work is still be done on it, so I would suggest working with what is already there and and being expanded upon. A lot easier than going in your own seperate direction and frees you up to concentrate on other areas like game play and units.

Zombie Island has struggled to find units as well... policemen I think is something you both desperately need. I've got to think someone will eventually be able to cut and paste some decent urban units.

This idea for a mod sounds very, very cool... and I will be keeping up with it

egroen said:

Zombie Island has struggled to find units as well... policemen I think is something you both desperately need.

Click to expand...

That's true units are one of the biggest limitations. I can pretty much put up with incongruous terrain graphics but not units. I left out a whole host of units because there were no suitable graphics eg. petrol bomber, policeman, Hells Angel biker. Sad fact is I don't even have a decent modern zombie unit for my scenario.

On a positive note the Wasteworld scenario promises to include some usable units not to mention the Fallout mod.

Weasel Op said:

Good idea TLC, except that leaves another loose end- why would a unit defending near power lines get a 50% bonus?
edit: speaking of floodplains, any ideas? Neither power lines nor walls would do much to a grassy area to make it more/less desirable.

Click to expand...

It would if the powerlines were lined by something desirable. Houses with neon lights, or something. I do not know what is possible to do wrt floodplain gfx, but it surely doesn't need be something that's part of the grass area - it could be something built on the grassy area.

KingArthur said:

As for terrain I take it you've looked at both Kulade's and Juul's versions?

Click to expand...

Yes, but neither of them were really what I was looking for. If I use a larger area tho, the SC4 graphics from EZI should work.

An important terrain type (esp. if the map covers a larger area of NY which I'd prefer) are bridges - Juul said he would try to make these for me when he had some spare time. Of course, you could always put roads over coastal tiles since this is a scenario.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure how I'm going to do bridges. I want some bridges, as well as land roads, to be blocked by rubble initially, which means I can't use LM plains for one. I think I'm going to put rails or something along the edges of coastal plains/road tiles, so that they will look like bridges, and it won't look wierd having a rail along one side of a road that runs along water.

BTW I have been thru multiple terrain setups and this is the best one. I can use practically every available terrain graphic slot (assuming I can find a good use for floodplains), and everything works out the way I want it to with base , hardcoded limitations, and such nonsense. I'll spare you the gory details of how it works, but it does.

Actually I like TLC's power line idea and flood plains could be power stations. Terrain doesn't have to mirror the behaviour of the actual vanilla version - you just set a different combination of flags in the editor e.g. disease can be turned off.

Click to expand...

Power lines is a great idea, but having something power-related on every adjacent grassy area doesn't really make sense. I wasn't going to use disease here (that will be crime), just give it different F/S/C values. One option is to not place any power lines adjacent to grass- they logically wouldn't need to be there anyway- and place generators or whatever individually, using a graphic that covers up the whole tile. In the editor, you can place floodplains just like any other terrain, without needing a river.

Rivers as power lines is a neat idea that could also be exp;oited in the "Must be near river" flag for Improvements - eg. generators and such as TLC mentioned.

Click to expand...

Yes, I'm planning to do that. It makes much more sense than my shaky "people would be more likely to live near a walled area for the added protection" explanation.

The defensive bonus on rivers can be set to 0 I think(?) which gets rid of that discrepancy.

Click to expand...

Yes, I missed it when I first looked at the editor. That means power lines are an airtight replacement.

The one discrepancy that I can't explain and which can't be turned off (as far as I know) is the movement reduction across rivers - this is flagged on a tech in the vanilla version (Engineering / Construction) so you could just give everyone a free tech with this option and ignore the movement problem altogether.

Click to expand...

I was planning to give every civ a free tech that would allow anything that should be automatic- bridges, trade over sea/ocean, ROP, etc.

A few other replacements (compiling and revising all my old notes)

irrigation > housing/shelter*
mine > labor? workshop? industry?
roads > "trade link", small arrows, "negotiated" by civil engineers, no MP bonus, only on road terrain?
railroads - unused
barb camp > organized crime hotspot (not gang-affiliated)
pollution > debris- cleaned up faster than rubble
fort/barricade > new graphics, need name change (barricade already a terrain)
outpost > surveillance camera
radar tower > command post? wireless hotspot?
colony > depot? warehouse?
goody hut > holdout? bunker?
craters > same, Punder's gray craters
ruins > no idea- leave it, and use Pounder's urban ruins?
airport, airbase > not sure what to call it, but requires sewer link in city radius and allows transportation via sewers. some units can "airdrop" a short distance through sewers. I got this idea from the game Freedom Fighters.

*"food" will be replaced with "population" willing to join your faction, hence "cities" in densely populated areas grow faster. This can be enhanced with civ-specific resources representing positive or negative mood toward your faction. For example, the free tech "ARM" will give the Patriots resource, enhancing recruitment in certain areas. If only resources could have different values for different civs...

btw I just tried the no-river floodplains, and the overlay doesn't show up. So we have a terrain that can have whatever settings we want, but it has to look identical to the grass terrain. Ideas? Throw it out? Make it identical to grass?

All seems logical.

Goody huts could just be "friendlies": people willing to help you out, I think Kulade's terrain graphic has a group of people.

Barricades could be "Check Points"?

"Friendlies" who occasionally turn out to be hostile barbarians?

"Check point" doesn't sound like something that increases defense. Or were you referring to the forest replacement? I like the name barricade for that, because it's going to be a large roadblock that increases defense and prevents vehicles from passing.

More ideas and questions.

I like the idea of starting out one civ with just an army, no settlers or cities. There a few ways to do this to keep the AI from aborting. You can place an immobile settler on a tile that doesn't allow cities, make some of the units kings (I plan to use kings in the mod as upgradeable "hero" units anyway), or give it one small useless city. The civ would have to conquer some territory before settling in and builiding. The invading Soviet forces would be the most logical civ to do this with, and it would help balance out their military superiority.

Along with the no-city start idea, I don't think I want "cities" to be buildable. I think by making the OCN very high (and increasing corruption to compensate*), I can keep the AI from razing cities (see below). Instead, I would preplace a lot of cities all over the map, concentrated in densely populated areas (which may or may not be Manhattan Island ), given to whichever civ starts out in that area. Other than each civ's core cities, however, they will be lightly defended and unproductive, allowing for a RISK-style free-for all in some areas the early stages of the game. I may give a lot of cities to the police/NG, or maybe to ARM.
*does the corruption slider work? I've never seen it used before.

The occasional razing is ok, but I don't want half the cities on the map gone by the end of the game. Besides that, I want to use Reddog's urban ruins as a flavor overlay, and to do that I would want them to be pre-placed only, to avoid wierd gfx combinations.

Ok, Tundra: I have a pseudo-scripting idea that I don't think has been tried before, and I want to see if it works: delayed appearance. There will be an unplayable AI civ with one city in the corner of the map, with a buttload of worthless units. The city will be surrounded by a few tiles of mysterious darkness so that there can be no contact with the outside world. The civ will get a special tech allowing its worthless horde to upgrade to an airborne army free. These units can then airdrop a short distance into the city, effectively creating a large, powerful invasion force. This could be very good or bad for nearby civs.

Hey Weasel! What do you think about barbarians representing a lawless population that loots everything in sight? This is what large urban populations seem to do in time of upheaval and crisis(just look at Baghdad when Saddam was toppled). The simple barbarian could just be a civilian looking unit called 'looter' and the advanced could be something like an 'armed looter'. This is what I'm doing for the FF scenario and just thought you might like to consider it.

Also maybe the organized crime you wanted to be barbarians could be a civ of their own. I'm sure the mafia would find some way to take advantage of a chaotic situation such as this.

One more question: that map you sent me, is that Governor's Island in the souteast corner? The reason I ask is because this was the Soviet HQ in FF, and is therefore essential to the scenario.

EDIT: I like a lot of the ideas in your last post and will more than likely implement them in my scenario. I hope that our working together will end up producing two great scenarios.

@Weasel OP: Preplacing wonders in cities seem to be the closest to a sure-fire way of preventing the AI from razing them.

@TLC: I was considering that too, but that's a LOT of wonders to make. I'll probably pre-place some useless wonders in the important/bigger cities (I need to come up with another name for them).

@Commodore: I already have an organized crime faction listed, which could be a gang alliance or the Mafia. I'm going to call the barbs "Resistors" and "Insurgents" to represent violent criminal activity fighting the situation as a whole. This reflects the way barbs behave, since they attack in small groups but have no overall strategy.

Yes, it's Governor's Island.

MAP OPTIONS
Smaller region: The white is the area covered by the map I have, but I think a larger area would work better. I like the green for a medium-sized map, and the blue for a big map. Opinions?