Yelü Chucai's surprising ascent
- Thread starter Cam_H
- Start date
woopdeedoo
King
So, before I hit enter, cycled through all cities and 
... a lot...
I then make the deal as proposed:
And made the civic changes:
The GE is moved to Beshbalik and GG to Cimmerian. Cannons in cap is also moved to merge with the rest of the stack. I draft some rifles in our Arab cities as I am unsure what is inside the Galleon on our shores.
I consider the Steel<>DoW WK+950
deal. Then I wonder about getting QSH to DoW Asoka instead of WK and us getting all his gold besides. This wasn't discussed and thus I don't pull the trigger.
I finally hit enter and Steam Power is in:
I set our research to RailRoad.
I burn the GE on IW and beg 140 off Cyrus.
WK sends a little stack to In'chon but I destroy it. The SoD is almost in place to start destroying Nampo. There are 3 rifles left in the city since WK has moved the whole SoD out
So here I am at turn 230, approx 5 turns in to the TS and finally I get to start smashing skulls...
I hit enter, get an absurd offer from Asoka:
Which I decline and I take Namp'o:
I take and Raze P'yongsong.
At this time, we get a GG in Pusan.
I capture and Keep Ulsan:
I hand the game over here after 9 turns for 2 reasons, time constraints and further discussion. WK has artillery but our massive stacks seem to be doing ok against them.
... a lot...I then make the deal as proposed:
And made the civic changes:
The GE is moved to Beshbalik and GG to Cimmerian. Cannons in cap is also moved to merge with the rest of the stack. I draft some rifles in our Arab cities as I am unsure what is inside the Galleon on our shores.
I consider the Steel<>DoW WK+950
deal. Then I wonder about getting QSH to DoW Asoka instead of WK and us getting all his gold besides. This wasn't discussed and thus I don't pull the trigger.I finally hit enter and Steam Power is in:
I set our research to RailRoad.
I burn the GE on IW and beg 140
off Cyrus.WK sends a little stack to In'chon but I destroy it. The SoD is almost in place to start destroying Nampo. There are 3 rifles left in the city since WK has moved the whole SoD out
So here I am at turn 230, approx 5 turns in to the TS and finally I get to start smashing skulls...
I hit enter, get an absurd offer from Asoka:
Which I decline and I take Namp'o:
I take and Raze P'yongsong.
At this time, we get a GG in Pusan.
I capture and Keep Ulsan:
I hand the game over here after 9 turns for 2 reasons, time constraints and further discussion. WK has artillery but our massive stacks seem to be doing ok against them.
OK ... nice warring woop'! 
I'm thinking that we've probably got enough units to get Wang Kon to capitulate, which I'm assuming will happen once we take Hyangson and then Seoul.
Are we prepared to 'take a breather' at that point before tackling 'whoever' next? I'm inclined to DoW Peter if we can get a lead with modern units. I'd like to go with Bombers, Destroyers, and Tanks. Am I too cautious?
I'm not sure on our policy with The Globe Theatre ... are we looking to build a 'draft central' site, or are the days of drafting soon to be behind us?
I'm OK to stick with the civics we have, but if we get Korea to cap', I'd re-visit Representation and take up Free Speech or Bureaucracy.
In terms of a PPP;
Thoughts welcome on this fairly 'development-oriented' proposition. Thanks.
I'm thinking that we've probably got enough units to get Wang Kon to capitulate, which I'm assuming will happen once we take Hyangson and then Seoul.
Are we prepared to 'take a breather' at that point before tackling 'whoever' next? I'm inclined to DoW Peter if we can get a lead with modern units. I'd like to go with Bombers, Destroyers, and Tanks. Am I too cautious?
I'm not sure on our policy with The Globe Theatre ... are we looking to build a 'draft central' site, or are the days of drafting soon to be behind us?
I'm OK to stick with the civics we have, but if we get Korea to cap', I'd re-visit Representation and take up Free Speech or Bureaucracy.
In terms of a PPP;
Run through and 'retire' unnecessary old Warriors, Archers, Spears, low-XP Chariots, etc. and save some money.
Technology-wise, I think after Railroad we could go after Corporation (+1
) and Astronomy (Observatory for Karakorum), which each are valuable prerequisites in their own right. I'm disinclined to trade Steam Power, but open to suggestions ... namely trade it around for Corporation, Astronomy, and Scientific Method in a 3-for-1. We could sell Democracy to Cyrus for an easy 260 + Map.
We've still got that Settler in Karakorum. There's no stand-out spot for settling at this stage I think.
There's a Great General (Subutai) in Pusan. We've got two Super-Medics, plus a Medic II Cavalry - I'm not sure if a third Super-Medic is needed, or whether we'd be better off merging him into a city (Karakorum? Uzbek? Medina?) or building a Military Academy (Beshbalik? Cimmerian?).
Technology-wise, I think after Railroad we could go after Corporation (+1
) and Astronomy (Observatory for Karakorum), which each are valuable prerequisites in their own right. I'm disinclined to trade Steam Power, but open to suggestions ... namely trade it around for Corporation, Astronomy, and Scientific Method in a 3-for-1. We could sell Democracy to Cyrus for an easy 260 + Map.We've still got that Settler in Karakorum. There's no stand-out spot for settling at this stage I think.
There's a Great General (Subutai) in Pusan. We've got two Super-Medics, plus a Medic II Cavalry - I'm not sure if a third Super-Medic is needed, or whether we'd be better off merging him into a city (Karakorum? Uzbek? Medina?) or building a Military Academy (Beshbalik? Cimmerian?).
- Karakorum: I think that a Hindu Monastery is 'overkill' for the
value alone given our proximity to Scientific Method, but I'd like to get a Hindu Missionary into Uzbek so it can build a Hindu Temple (Priest). Beyond this, I'm fine to continue to produce units here, but I'd grow the population by working the Corn Farm. - Beshbalik: Grow population. Two Work Boats and then units.
- Uzbek: We've converted our National Epic city into a bit of a production hub, but I'd like to get it back to spawning Great People. I think that some Great Merchants could come in handy. I'm not sure if Mahabodi is worth shrining after we take Seoul, and therefore if we should be shooting at a Great Prophet. Anyway, like Beshbalik, we can get out a couple of Work Boats, and I'd toss in a Jewish Temple (run Priest).
- Turfan: I don't quite 'see' the Bank build here. I'd look at population growth and units.
- Cimmerian: Coal found in our Heroic Epic city! Units.
- Visigoth: Complete the Ironclad, and re-build the Library. Review citizen allocation.
- Ning-Hsia: Granary, and maybe a Taoist Monastery for the same reasoning as Karakorum - a source of Missionaries. We could do worse than a Library here if not.
- Basra: Continue the Rifleman.
- Kufah: Cavalry if we don't want The Globe Theatre - Theatre if we do.
- Damascus: Units, but get the population up.
- Baghdad: If we're still drafting, here's a candidate city. Units.
- Mecca: Grow. Lighthouse.
- Medina: Courthouse continue, but emphasise
> Work Boat.
Thoughts welcome on this fairly 'development-oriented' proposition. Thanks.
woopdeedoo
King
I think we may want consider a swap back into Slavery to whip some modern units once we have required techs for arty's etc. Also to whip some infra.
When I was playing, nobody would trade anything worthwhile for SP, so I am unsure what kind of trades you might get there...
When I was playing, nobody would trade anything worthwhile for SP, so I am unsure what kind of trades you might get there...
pigswill
fly (one day)
I reckon we should be aiming for railroad>artillery>upgrade cannon>kill. Any trades along there would be helpful. Should Wang decide to capitulate he may be able to contribute something to research.
The main progress is that on Turn 10 we have got Wang Kon in a position where he's prepared to capitulate, which isn't too bad given it was a worn-down Industrial Age stack going up against Artillery and SAM Infantry! I would take capitulation - but to be on the safe-side, I'd hand it over to the roster to see if we can get Scientific Method or Astronomy in the deal. We took Seoul, Pyongyang, and Hyangsan.
We completed Railroad and (sorry pigswill) Corporation. I think that Assembly Line will be important. I decided not to trade around Steam Power, but Peter and Qin were researching it anyway, and Asoka's got it too now.
Lots of demands, but I did cave in on Qin Shi Huang demanding that we go into Bureaucracy. Seeing that there was a lot of draft unhappiness and I was thinking that we should flip into Bureaucracy or Free Speech at some point soon anyhow, I opted to go along with it. Two more turns and we can switch to something else if we want.
Cyrus (of all people?!) is WHEOOHRN. He was 'Pleased' with everyone on the turn that he did, except Wang, who he was 'Cautious' toward.
I tweaked some trade deals, settled the Great General in Karakorum, and we popped a Great Prophet out of Uzbek (massively against the odds, but I was running a Priest there for about three turns) so we've Shrined the Mahabodhi in Seoul.
We completed Railroad and (sorry pigswill) Corporation. I think that Assembly Line will be important. I decided not to trade around Steam Power, but Peter and Qin were researching it anyway, and Asoka's got it too now.
Lots of demands, but I did cave in on Qin Shi Huang demanding that we go into Bureaucracy. Seeing that there was a lot of draft unhappiness and I was thinking that we should flip into Bureaucracy or Free Speech at some point soon anyhow, I opted to go along with it. Two more turns and we can switch to something else if we want.
Cyrus (of all people?!) is WHEOOHRN. He was 'Pleased' with everyone on the turn that he did, except Wang, who he was 'Cautious' toward.
I tweaked some trade deals, settled the Great General in Karakorum, and we popped a Great Prophet out of Uzbek (massively against the odds, but I was running a Priest there for about three turns) so we've Shrined the Mahabodhi in Seoul.
FiveRings << Up
pigswill << On Deck
woopdeedoo
Cam
pigswill << On Deck
woopdeedoo
Cam
Spoiler :
. 
woopdeedoo
King
Good job Cam!
We can get the following trades for RR:
So-so to say the least but it could help.
On the war front, I reckon we take the two remaining cities and then cap WK. We might be able to get the techs above without needing to trade away RR as well...
We can get the following trades for RR:
So-so to say the least but it could help.
On the war front, I reckon we take the two remaining cities and then cap WK. We might be able to get the techs above without needing to trade away RR as well...
pigswill
fly (one day)
Finally got round to looking at the save. I noticed that Cyrus has artillery which isn't good and he and Peter are well above us in power. So I guess we either go AL or artillery ourselves, if we can pick up the pre-reqs artillery is pretty good but maybe going infantry+cannon could be the way to go coz AL also gives us factories and a shot at the Pentagon.
I guess the immediate decision is whether we want WK as a naff vassal or a strong vassal. Naff vassal means driving him from the mainland which shouldn't be too difficult, strong vassal means capitulation now, return some cities and give him some suggestions for research.
I guess the immediate decision is whether we want WK as a naff vassal or a strong vassal. Naff vassal means driving him from the mainland which shouldn't be too difficult, strong vassal means capitulation now, return some cities and give him some suggestions for research.
I'm pretty open to pressing on with the conflict if the rest of the roster is, but I'd personally be even more happy to take capitulation now, with hopefully a tech' thrown in to the deal - our troops are pretty worn down and getting a bit outdated. Just btw, the city of Manp'o is on a far-flung island near India and China that I'd not keep. If we were to take it, I'd probably just gift it back to Korea.
FiveRings - please let us know that you've 'got it'.
FiveRings - please let us know that you've 'got it'.
I have downloaded the save and looked at it. IMHO, we could very well take away the rest of the continental territory of WK. So, the question seems to be whether it will be more efficient to cap WK, give him back Pyongyang, Hyangsen, and maybe even Seoul and use him to speed-up research, and whether we can prevent his being decapped if Cyrus or Peter decide to attack him.
I see the advantage of a strong, researchful and capped WK, but cannot assess the chances of keeping him that way. There is quite a probability of Cyrus going after Peter, but my gut tells me it's either we, or WK who is targeted.
Techwise I am quite divided between going after industrialization - combustion to get those tanks, and getting to artillery and copters, as our quite numerous cavalry gives some grounds for fast transformation. We are not so good financially to make a large-scale upgrading, though, so I'd look the way of tanks, where industrialization will enhance the wealth-creation capacity.
Bottomline: my vote is cast for capping WK, giving him back the three cities mentioned above and going tanks with a look cast at Cyrus and Peter.
Let's clear up the final decision on capping or not WK and whether we give him back almost all conquered cities, and the tech path to be taken.
I see the advantage of a strong, researchful and capped WK, but cannot assess the chances of keeping him that way. There is quite a probability of Cyrus going after Peter, but my gut tells me it's either we, or WK who is targeted.
Techwise I am quite divided between going after industrialization - combustion to get those tanks, and getting to artillery and copters, as our quite numerous cavalry gives some grounds for fast transformation. We are not so good financially to make a large-scale upgrading, though, so I'd look the way of tanks, where industrialization will enhance the wealth-creation capacity.
Bottomline: my vote is cast for capping WK, giving him back the three cities mentioned above and going tanks with a look cast at Cyrus and Peter.
Let's clear up the final decision on capping or not WK and whether we give him back almost all conquered cities, and the tech path to be taken.
Please note that only half of a vassal's land area and half of their population count toward the Domination target, so to speed up Domination, by definition it's generally best to hang on to cities. Given that, there are circumstances and tactics that might be employed to 'serve the greater purpose', but in this case, handing over three good cities isn't something that seems to me to be especially beneficial (although I can be persuaded otherwise).
Also, given how advanced we are in the tech' tree, the practice of spamming cheap units and gifting them to Korea won't be terribly efficient, unlike gifting 'say' Warriors for Macemen upgrading by the vassal ... if that was a tactic being considered.
I acknowledge that Wang Kon is generally the pariah in this game, and we'll drop our rosy and cozy relations a notch with the world if we take him on. Provided we remain strong, Korea is extremely unlikely to renounce his vassal status given that he was taken as a vassal by force.
My hunch is that Cyrus is/was gearing up for war with Korea, but (with no certainty) I'm guessing that if we were to cap' Korea, he could very well drop his WHEOOHRN status.
My inclination is to go for Tanks rather than follow the AI toward Artillery ... we should be able to get Physics et al out of Wang Kon, or even just get really serious about self-researching again.
My preference: I would cap' Korea now, but try to get Scientific Method and/or Astronomy out of him rather than the deal that he's putting up. I would keep those cities.
Bottom line: I am happy to go along with the roster if the majority wants to head in a different direction.
Also, given how advanced we are in the tech' tree, the practice of spamming cheap units and gifting them to Korea won't be terribly efficient, unlike gifting 'say' Warriors for Macemen upgrading by the vassal ... if that was a tactic being considered.
I acknowledge that Wang Kon is generally the pariah in this game, and we'll drop our rosy and cozy relations a notch with the world if we take him on. Provided we remain strong, Korea is extremely unlikely to renounce his vassal status given that he was taken as a vassal by force.
My hunch is that Cyrus is/was gearing up for war with Korea, but (with no certainty) I'm guessing that if we were to cap' Korea, he could very well drop his WHEOOHRN status.
My inclination is to go for Tanks rather than follow the AI toward Artillery ... we should be able to get Physics et al out of Wang Kon, or even just get really serious about self-researching again.
My preference: I would cap' Korea now, but try to get Scientific Method and/or Astronomy out of him rather than the deal that he's putting up. I would keep those cities.
Bottom line: I am happy to go along with the roster if the majority wants to head in a different direction.
No, the upgrading of units by the vassal was not part of my assessment of the situation. However, I don't quite see the logic of capping WK now, if we don't make use to the max of his research - and there won't be that much left of the latter if we don't give him back some good cities.
If capping goes hand-in-hand with keeping whatever we have already conquered, then I'd prefer to take the remaining two continental cities before capping him. The techs won't go away, and it might be preferable to keep onto 0% research till that time. Of course, WK capping to Cyrus might come to be in case we continue the war, and has to be taken into consideration, too. I don't have access to the save right now, so can't check it by myself, but I would make up my mind based on whether we can get Peter join us in a war with Cyrus or, even better, if we can bribe him to start a war with Cyrus while we are finishing the continental WK.
If capping goes hand-in-hand with keeping whatever we have already conquered, then I'd prefer to take the remaining two continental cities before capping him. The techs won't go away, and it might be preferable to keep onto 0% research till that time. Of course, WK capping to Cyrus might come to be in case we continue the war, and has to be taken into consideration, too. I don't have access to the save right now, so can't check it by myself, but I would make up my mind based on whether we can get Peter join us in a war with Cyrus or, even better, if we can bribe him to start a war with Cyrus while we are finishing the continental WK.
I'm mindful that you're waiting to hear from woopdeedoo and pigswill, but re. #234, if you're confident that you can keep taking Korean cities and aren't willing to cap' Wang Kon now, then I'd much prefer continuing the war that than gifting good conquered cities back.
pigswill
fly (one day)
I reckon that we either have WK as a strong vassal or annihilate him. Weak vassals are useless. Seems there's an aversion to returning WKs cities so consider annihilation instead. Finish off his mainland cities while teching combustion for transports and maybe a destroyer escort.
woopdeedoo
King
I would take his last two cities. Don't vassal, take techs instead.
I am thru 8 turns of my TS and would suggest to discuss the situation before moving further (I'd rather hand over the floor than continue, but would be OK to make a couple more turns if the team decides so.)
In a nutshell:
1675 AD (t1) WK counterattacks and takes Ulsan using his Galleon: I might have moved some guards without allowing for a possible takeover in one move. Anyway, that was a nasty surprise and setback for me although offset in part by the success in the race with Cyrus for WK's cities.
1680 (t2) Paegom taken. Everybody but Asoka is WHEOHRN. Clam to Peter for 3gpt, pigs to Qin for 4gpts.
1690 (t4) Peter requests that we break deals with Asoka - OK. Cyrus declares on WK. We take Wonsan under his nose, though.
1695 (t5) Peter requests dear for fur -OK.
1700 (t6) Asoka switches to SP.
1705 (t7) Wealth: Yelu is #1 (no surperise as I am still keeping the research at 0% - evidently needs to be changed right away. (#2-Cyrus, #3 - Qin, #4 - WK, #5 - Peter, #6 - Asoka)
1710 (t8) Ulsan retaken
WK is not willing to give up both techs for peace. Peter and Qin continue to be on WHEOHRN, Cyrus has a formidable stack in our Southeast and a few units heading towards Ulsan.
I think we don't need to continue the war with WK, and would be willing to take peace even for one of his techs - preferably after a turn if this is the ScMeth, as we need that turn to build a Jewish Monastery - in Baghdad, iirc, or some other of Sal's former cities.
I'd push towards tanks as fast as possible.
Save is below.
In a nutshell:
1675 AD (t1) WK counterattacks and takes Ulsan using his Galleon: I might have moved some guards without allowing for a possible takeover in one move. Anyway, that was a nasty surprise and setback for me although offset in part by the success in the race with Cyrus for WK's cities.
1680 (t2) Paegom taken. Everybody but Asoka is WHEOHRN. Clam to Peter for 3gpt, pigs to Qin for 4gpts.
1690 (t4) Peter requests that we break deals with Asoka - OK. Cyrus declares on WK. We take Wonsan under his nose, though.
1695 (t5) Peter requests dear for fur -OK.
1700 (t6) Asoka switches to SP.
1705 (t7) Wealth: Yelu is #1 (no surperise as I am still keeping the research at 0% - evidently needs to be changed right away. (#2-Cyrus, #3 - Qin, #4 - WK, #5 - Peter, #6 - Asoka)
1710 (t8) Ulsan retaken
WK is not willing to give up both techs for peace. Peter and Qin continue to be on WHEOHRN, Cyrus has a formidable stack in our Southeast and a few units heading towards Ulsan.
I think we don't need to continue the war with WK, and would be willing to take peace even for one of his techs - preferably after a turn if this is the ScMeth, as we need that turn to build a Jewish Monastery - in Baghdad, iirc, or some other of Sal's former cities.
I'd push towards tanks as fast as possible.
Save is below.
Thanks for the turnset so far - by all means take a few more turns.
(Maybe unsurprisingly! ...) I'm fine with getting the best tech' deal that you can out of Korea and taking Wang Kon as a vassal.
I'm also fine with Representation if you wanted to go back there. Universal Suffrage could work well too.
Peace will allow us great scope to re-grow. Beshbalik will benefit from some
buildings if you get a chance.
(Maybe unsurprisingly! ...) I'm fine with getting the best tech' deal that you can out of Korea and taking Wang Kon as a vassal.
I'm also fine with Representation if you wanted to go back there. Universal Suffrage could work well too.
Peace will allow us great scope to re-grow. Beshbalik will benefit from some
buildings if you get a chance.
