Memoryjar
Emperor
Ihad a game with England where I faced a bersekers assault. Luckily, my city where in a strong place for defense. 3 bersekers were really, really hard to kill with CB and city.
Denmark - Completely useless or...?
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BlackWizard
King
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They forget to mention it on patch notes according to maddjinn newest btm. It's very significant change indeed
Cromagnus
Deity
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was in GK,with a few reloads.Unlike CFC,We allow SL(if not too many) in CIV to correct major strategic mistakes.
Early war is harder in BNW for the lack of gold and happiness.But strategy does not change...
Spoiler :
I think the gold/happiness changes do in fact change things... as well as the early warmonger hate. Getting an army up fast enough to chew through the starting Deity units of 7 civs by turn 70 is pretty ridiculous. You'd be very very negative gpt in BNW, and I doubt you can get the pyramids up fast enough (especially if you're spitting out units) to significantly offset this with pillage/repair. You're going to quickly lose all trading options being so aggressive. So, your happiness will quickly go negative, your gpt will quickly go negative, and you won't have enough momentum to finish with those units.
In other words, I highly doubt such an early victory is achievable in BNW. The strategy does change if it takes longer. Neither Attila nor Egypt's ranged horse units upgrade into ranged horse units. So you'd have to beeline Machinery to finish things off. Your tech is going to suffer with such an early warpath. Your XBows won't be promoted at all, but at least perhaps your war chariots won't get one-shot killed if you gave them the Range promotion.
So, you're probably looking at t120+, realistically. However, as soon as I get time to play again, I'm totally going to give this a try. I think I smell a Deity challenge. I might make it a Small Map challenge though to be more inclusive. Clearing 5 civs should still be feasible...
Cromagnus
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Yeah, it's been like that for a while. If you beeline Metal Casting, and quickly upgrade swordsmen to berserkers, they can capture a city with melee attack alone, ie without ranged support. They can absorb multiple rounds of city fire, which makes siege weapons relevant again. They'll get Cover 2 from all that combat and thus remain relevant damage shields until you get Gunpowder/Chemistry. The free action pillage means they stay relevant as damage shields even longer. Siege + melee is only less effective than XB rush when it comes to clearing out enemy armies, but berserkers mean early action for your siege weapons, which in turn means that you're running with *heavily promoted* siege weapons by the time you start to run into problems chewing through units. Cannons with Range+Logistics are way better than XBs with the same on t140, because XBs are slow to nuke down a city by then. And Cannons that can land, setup and fire 2x in one turn... well, even though it's situational, you just have to be smart. I invade the people who don't have a water approach early, when I don't have Optics or Astronomy yet, and save the ones who do for later. Scout out the map, plan your conquest path, and take advantage of whatever the map offers you. No different than any other civ on Pangaea, except that instead of a water bottleneck slowing you down, it speeds you up.
Plus, you get CBs on the way. It's not like you have to detour from the standard pyramids/CB start. You can beeline Metal Working after Construction/Philosophy. The biggest thing I do differently is plant the GS instead of bulbing him, because unlike an XB rush, I need to keep getting techs quickly all the way to Chemistry. So the long-term advantage of the academy kicks in. Complete Liberty ASAP (preferably by t80), plant the Academy ASAP, and instead of 380-400 beakers, you'll have 12/turn (from NC), so 480 by t120. You really need all the extra beakers you can get to get Optics + Chemistry in a timely fashion. But it's worth it.
The biggest dilemma is whether to skip Machinery or not. Currency + Guilds + Machinery is a big detour from Chemistry. You can typically have Machinery by t105-t110 even after beelining Metalworks, but you could also have Physics by then. I'll typically research Currency + Drama & Poetry so I can get a better tech steal, a writer's guild, and some markets in key cities, but that's as far as I usually go. I'll steal Guilds, Civil Service, Education and Machinery if I can.
Fallen_Kings
Chieftain
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That doesn't matter,knight with march,double attack and cover combined with horse archer is still effective until 150t,in my own experiments.Besides,negative GPT and Production is not a matter because you only need 2 troops which you can build before your economy is ruined.On the other hand,your unit remains at least 75% strength with a GG regardless of happiness,in GK that was 82%-I don't see a big difference in it.
What you need to do is to build an army before 45 and build another before 60.One marchs left and the other marchs right.I think 70+t victory is achievable in BNW in a map with a good start point and convient path to all AIs
Cromagnus
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Hmm, I'll have to try this. I've taken cities pretty easily with Chariot Archers before with Arabia, while teching Chivalry, so I know it can be done, but I had 4 of them on one city...
Zigzagzigal
Chieftain
What I'd like to see is Danish Melee + Gunpowder units having access to a Coastal Raider-style promotion line (gold from attacking cities, possibly a city attack bonus too if that's not OP.) That way, Denmark becomes more fun to play, and can keep up with other warmongerers.
But, that's just what I'd want to see. And I gotta deal with the situation how it is. One thing Denmark's very good at is taking out coastal or near-coastal cities with lack of exposure to the sea. As people have already mentioned, keeping embarkment movement when you disembark allows you to disembark siege units and fire in the same turn, allowing you to take cities down very rapidly.
Berserkers are nice due to their high mobility and good strength (renaissance-era units aren't much stronger, and the renaissance's lack of a new land ranged units makes the unit easier to use for longer) making them exceptional at manouvering to protect Trebuchets.
Norwegian Ski Infantry... not so strong. It's worth remembering though that in Brave New World Denmark is the only Civ to have a UU that upgrades into another, so you can keep hold of those promotions Berserkers earned. On decent-sized landmasses, double snow and tundra movement can be useful for attacking in a weak point of an enemy's land (tundra cities tend to be worse-defended than other cities) where you can establish a military base. Plus, disembarkment moves on top of the fast snow/hill/tundra movement makes it very easy to storm those areas.
So, it'd be easy to assume that Denmark's heyday is in the medieval era, but actually they make excellent end-game warmongerers. That's because of not only the increased embark speed meaning you can move further inland after disembarking, but also the increased range of Artillery meaning it's easier to get shots in on the same turn as disembarking. True, the Bomber/Carrier combo does something similar, but you can have both at the same time.
But, that's just what I'd want to see. And I gotta deal with the situation how it is. One thing Denmark's very good at is taking out coastal or near-coastal cities with lack of exposure to the sea. As people have already mentioned, keeping embarkment movement when you disembark allows you to disembark siege units and fire in the same turn, allowing you to take cities down very rapidly.
Berserkers are nice due to their high mobility and good strength (renaissance-era units aren't much stronger, and the renaissance's lack of a new land ranged units makes the unit easier to use for longer) making them exceptional at manouvering to protect Trebuchets.
Norwegian Ski Infantry... not so strong. It's worth remembering though that in Brave New World Denmark is the only Civ to have a UU that upgrades into another, so you can keep hold of those promotions Berserkers earned. On decent-sized landmasses, double snow and tundra movement can be useful for attacking in a weak point of an enemy's land (tundra cities tend to be worse-defended than other cities) where you can establish a military base. Plus, disembarkment moves on top of the fast snow/hill/tundra movement makes it very easy to storm those areas.
So, it'd be easy to assume that Denmark's heyday is in the medieval era, but actually they make excellent end-game warmongerers. That's because of not only the increased embark speed meaning you can move further inland after disembarking, but also the increased range of Artillery meaning it's easier to get shots in on the same turn as disembarking. True, the Bomber/Carrier combo does something similar, but you can have both at the same time.
Cromagnus
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The more I think about it, the more I think that t70 is just way too optimistic in BNW. t90 maybe...
Also, Logistics doesn't turn into Blitz, so they lose that Promotion. They'd keep March but I didn't think mounted units got Cover. They'd also lose all three promotions for Rough Terrain attack/etc. Basically, they're going to lose the majority of their promotions. So, I'm not really convinced.
And, getting a second army ready by t60 doesn't get you a win by t70 unless there's only one AI left... You can't chew through 2 armies and take 2 cities in 10 turns with unpromoted war chariots... I would think. You'd have to have that second army ready by t55 at the latest, I would think. And that means taking out 5 civs with the first army... so t40 is really pushing it. If you didn't build a single settler but just pushed out units the whole time and relied on annexed cities to provide unit supply, maybe you'd have the production, but your unhappiness would be in the -20 or worse range very soon, leaving you with uprisings... etc. etc.
Still skeptical, but I'll play with it.
EDIT: Moved this discussion out of this thread. Sorry for derailing. New thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=519248
Fallen_Kings
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Logistics is valid for melee unit and coexist with Blitz.
sendos
Immortal
UA should add 5x more gold from pillaging and deleting units and 3x more gold from pillaging trade routes. Blockaded enemy cities grant some gpt to the Danish, too. Beserker UU should have a 50% combat bonus on top of the amphibious promotion when attacking cities from the sea as well as doubled embarkation strength. Ski infantry should enable the unit to travel over mountains and only lose 15HP per turn when ending turn on a mountain as well as get a 33% combat bonus against units for attacking from mountain tiles.
Cromagnus
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I'm almost certain Logistics doesn't do anything once they become a melee unit. They will only have one attack per round until they get Blitz.
think it works for melee units too
A bit off topic - Denmark as a Deity AI opponent
Is Denmark "Worse" than Zulus (in a good neighborly way) ?
Research cost equal but Impi are arguably placed along a better tech path (Civil Service - growth / Education) .. Berserkers have Composite Bowmen as requirement for Impis is a detour ..
Both units have 3 movement, 21 STR (needs iron) vs 16 STR ..
I don't want Harald as a neighbor (his spirit must be pissed off by the number of pages in the "Denmark completely useless thread"
).. Denmark AI gets berserkers before/same time I get composites (~ Turn 50+)..
Is Denmark "Worse" than Zulus (in a good neighborly way) ?
Research cost equal but Impi are arguably placed along a better tech path (Civil Service - growth / Education) .. Berserkers have Composite Bowmen as requirement for Impis is a detour ..
Both units have 3 movement, 21 STR (needs iron) vs 16 STR ..
I don't want Harald as a neighbor (his spirit must be pissed off by the number of pages in the "Denmark completely useless thread"
).. Denmark AI gets berserkers before/same time I get composites (~ Turn 50+)..EnterGodMode
Chieftain
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A bit off topic - Denmark as a Deity AI opponent
Is Denmark "Worse" than Zulus (in a good neighborly way) ?
Research cost equal but Impi are arguably placed along a better tech path (Civil Service - growth / Education) .. Berserkers have Composite Bowmen as requirement for Impis is a detour ..
Both units have 3 movement, 21 STR (needs iron) vs 16 STR ..
I don't want Harald as a neighbor (his spirit must be pissed off by the number of pages in the "Denmark completely useless thread"
What makes Zulu better than Denmark is the combination of the UA with the UB
BlackWizard
King
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Somebody mentioned that ranged promotions are not anymore wasted when upgrading chariot archer to knight. I think it was patched on last update.
Edit: Somebody actually tested it and yes ranged promotions turn into melee promotions when upgrading: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13014852&postcount=5
adwcta
King
If you read further down that thread... it doesn't seem to actually work. It shows up on the tooltip, but is not calculated in the actual battles.
Also, to whoever was asking about Harold's tendencies as a neighbor. He's more like Genghis than Shaka. He's prone toward war, but, despite that that's where all his bonuses lie.... you can very well befriend him and he'll make a good ally.
Cromagnus
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I tested this last night. My Immortal run took long enough that I got Chivalry right before taking the last capital. It was actually convenient, because it allowed me to replace dead melee units by turning my least-upgraded Horse Archers into Knights.
I verified that Knights lose the +45% ranged combat, and Logistics does *not* give them the ability to attack twice. However, if you were eligible for March before, you still are, which is nice, without having to gain 2 more promotions first.
However, it's somewhat moot. You don't need any military tech beyond Horse Archers to clear the map with Attila.
I verified that Knights lose the +45% ranged combat, and Logistics does *not* give them the ability to attack twice. However, if you were eligible for March before, you still are, which is nice, without having to gain 2 more promotions first.
However, it's somewhat moot. You don't need any military tech beyond Horse Archers to clear the map with Attila.
I think I see the disconnect here. I'm making assumptions based on the state of Deity play post-fall patch.
Assumption #1)
For best results at Deity domination, you need to get civs to attack each other. By doing this, you achieve multiple things:
* You encounter virtually no resistance when you DoW, or it comes too late to defend the capital.
* You maintain friendly relations with the civs that are at war with them, suffering no diplomatic penalty for city capture
Assumption #2)
On Pangaea, you don't start capturing cities until t90-t110, to avoid heavy diplomatic penalties.
Basically, Deity domination IS nerfed because of diplomatic penalties and the economic changes to make trade routes the main source of income.
So yes, I AM assuming that the AI's coastal city will be relatively unguarded when I DoW. I'm basically counting on that. There might be one or two, but if I time my attack right, I can cap uncontested.
In my Maya game, this backfired on me. Sweden and the Shoshone warred, but Sweden by t90 had won swiftly and handily, capturing a city and making peace ten turns after the DoW, leaving him with the #1 military and #1 production and a GW when I attacked. This is an area where I need to improve for sure.
Anyway, point being, Deity domination IMHO is now a lot more about managing CS relations and pitting AIs against each other than it is brute force war, unless you can win the game so swiftly that it doesn't matter. Tommy's t126 Arabia run is probably a good example. I'm guessing at that speed he could just not worry about relationships.
There have been little deity Domination challenges going on here and there for a while now. Also, the HOF occasionally does a Diety Domination challenge. Join us, it's fun. Sorry if I got testy.
No worries.
I lost interest in deity challenges after BNW, suddenly "all" people were deity players, no patches so far has given the challenges BNW did, unless you fight other human players for turn win times. I would rather MP, in that case.
I will look for that Denmark challenge.
Fallen_Kings
Chieftain
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I tested this last night. My Immortal run took long enough that I got Chivalry right before taking the last capital. It was actually convenient, because it allowed me to replace dead melee units by turning my least-upgraded Horse Archers into Knights.
I verified that Knights lose the +45% ranged combat, and Logistics does *not* give them the ability to attack twice. However, if you were eligible for March before, you still are, which is nice, without having to gain 2 more promotions first.
However, it's somewhat moot. You don't need any military tech beyond Horse Archers to clear the map with Attila.
Oh sorry.Seems I've been playing my mod for too long...
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