Exploiting a Forest start

HorseshoeHermit

20% accurate as usual, Morty
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So you start a game, and you roll a start surrounded by forest. I don't mean 2 or three forest hexes, I mean trees literally are all you can see. Maybe your Warrior can't get out of the forest in one or even two turns, or maybe the only non-forest surroundings you see have no added value - no river, no mountain, no bonus food (or too far from luxes obv.)

The start generator will guarantee you've got something nearby giving you 2 :c5food:, probably a deer, but what do you do if that is your only food? Your growth will stagnate at pop 2, and the first settler could take aeons from that much manpower.

So again, generic question, what do you do to get started the fastest, most effective, and resilient in a forest start you can't just wander your settler out of? I mean specifics, builds, how to prioritize mining (if your luxes aren't mining), how much added value you see in worker stealing?

And perhaps this consideration should be appended to the Celts http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=485701 strategy thread.
 
If I do a forest start, I did one recently, I just suck it up and make at least one extra worker and start chopping.
 
I see a heavy forest start as a "get an ancient wonder of your choice" card.
Steal a worker, then chop out 2 more workers, and then granary, and then a wonder. probably
 
You don't really get starts as poor as you describe. You're guaranteed at least 2 luxes, 1 strategic resource and one bonus resource IIRC. Anyway, lots of forest means lots of Camp resources, so you want to get Goddess of the Hunt. You don't have a lot of food, so you're going to take Liberty.

And of course, most likely you will be in that much forest because you have a civ with a forest start bias, like the Celts or the Iroquois. Use their uniques.
 
If I do a forest start, I did one recently, I just suck it up and make at least one extra worker and start chopping.

Perhaps my sarcasm detector isn't working, but Forests starts are actually great. Just make Mining a priority and chop away for hammers [unless there is flat tundra underneath]
 
Boudica and Hiawatha are asking what the problem is.
 
Monty says hi also. One of the most fun games I played was Monty on arboreal. Askia came over with his army and failed to my jags in forest cover then same with Darius. I played a defensive game and over time as my jaguars upgraded they were all I needed to defend my cities. Keeping that woodsmen ability turns those guys into monsters with promos and upgrades in the forest. It was just as SV but nobody could really mess with me yet Askia declared war over and over lol. And the amount of culture I got out of that just made those policies come even faster.
 
Monty says hi also. One of the most fun games I played was Monty on arboreal. Askia came over with his army and failed to my jags in forest cover then same with Darius. I played a defensive game and over time as my jaguars upgraded they were all I needed to defend my cities. Keeping that woodsmen ability turns those guys into monsters with promos and upgrades in the forest. It was just as SV but nobody could really mess with me yet Askia declared war over and over lol. And the amount of culture I got out of that just made those policies come even faster.

Both Jaguars and Mohawk Warriors are awesome for defensive warfare if you have the right terrain. Your opponents move slower, your units are faster and they get bonuses in that terrain.
 
Yes, and the jaguars keep their healing on kill as they are promoted as well dont they?
Jaguar > Mohawk (imho)

When you guys see a thick forest start, do you build a worker first? (before even a scout?)
I just had a game where I did scout first and there were no CS or AI anywhere to be found, thus no workers for free. Building the worker from turn 0 might be the best choice if you are 3 tiles deep in the trees. the chopped trees will zip you through the other early units / buildings.
 
Yes, and the jaguars keep their healing on kill as they are promoted as well dont they?
Jaguar > Mohawk (imho)

When you guys see a thick forest start, do you build a worker first? (before even a scout?)
I just had a game where I did scout first and there were no CS or AI anywhere to be found, thus no workers for free. Building the worker from turn 0 might be the best choice if you are 3 tiles deep in the trees. the chopped trees will zip you through the other early units / buildings.

Both Jaguars and Mohawks keep all their promotions on upgrades. Jaguars even keep them when they get upgraded to Spearman from a goodie hut, and later to 4-move in Forest + Forest bonuses + Heal Lancers.

Jaguar as a unit in itself is better than a Mohawk, but for the Iroquois all Forest and Jungles tiles inside their borders count as roads, which make Mohawks (and of course other Iroquois units) extremely mobile on defense.
 
When you guys see a thick forest start, do you build a worker first? (before even a scout?)

No, that would still be scout first; you need to discover Mining before a worker will do any good in a forest; and in addition a thick forest really needs a scout to explore at a decent pace.
 
If I start in a forest and there is no pressure to expand quickly to take land that the AI might otherwise steal I often try for Stonehenge with a forest start. Build would be scout-monument-worker-stonehenge while teching pottery-calendar-mining (worker usually has to sit around and wait for mining to do anything if it's all forest). I also steal a worker from a city state if I can to get 2 of them chopping as soon as I unlock mining.

You need to have some hammer hexes though, hill settlement is of course a huge help and any 2f1h hexes. On deity you should try to get it by turn 35 if possible but getting it by turn 38 at least should give you a good chance to snag it. For policies I'll get aristocracy if going tradition and republic if going liberty for the extra hammer(s).
 
Boudica and Hiawatha are asking what the problem is.

Well the problem being without growth you won't be unlocking the techs, and waiting on the techs means you don't have buildings to build with your chops.

Everybody's agreeing settlers are not priority, no? I hadn't considered chopping Stonehenge, but I do like that wonder...
 
Well of course you have to alter your build order for a forest. It's just that it can very well be a good problem to have.

I don't think Boudica should chop Stonehenge.
 
Well the problem being without growth you won't be unlocking the techs, and waiting on the techs means you don't have buildings to build with your chops.

Everybody's agreeing settlers are not priority, no? I hadn't considered chopping Stonehenge, but I do like that wonder...

Food trade routes. Try them.
 
Iroquois most definitely wants food trade routes, and maritimes. Chop as little forest as possible, and work those hammers.
 
Iroquois most definitely wants food trade routes, and maritimes. Chop as little forest as possible, and work those hammers.

You can use more food trade routes as the Iroquois because you don't need trade routes for money as much. You have less roads to pay maintenance for, you need fewer workers because they move faster in your territory and don't have to build that many roads, and you need fewer units for defense because they are very mobile within your own territory.
 
The repeated mention of Hiawatha and Boudicca are holding the discussion back, as not all Civ leaders are Hiawatha and Boudicca. Most recently I got a forest start as Ahmad Al-Mansur. And I wish I didn't have to say it but start bias was on.

Food routes require a settler, caravan, granary, and Husbandry. I'm just having trouble picturing getting to that endpoint with 1F 1H yields.

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You are not guaranteed bonus resources, or an early game strategic. I rolled a France game that had two luxes and a river, I had to move for hammers, and had to deal with marsh sugar.
 
I'm just having trouble picturing getting to that endpoint with 1F 1H yields.

As above, if not the Irqouis chop the forest for hammers which speed up everything. (Unless underlying terrain is tundra)
 
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