New Deity Challenge Series **Suggestion thread**

Fluphen Azine said:

Originally Posted by Acken
9. Strong no. That is my most hated setting in Hof and Gotm. It increases the risk of replaying, it's 100% luck based and I just hate it altogeher. If rewards were balanced it would be okay but they sadly aren't.

No replays or reloads in GOTM Im pretty sure for it to count right?

Click to expand...

Yes they do not count but that is for those format. I also do not do it... I just stated it's possible to do it.

I was trying to say that they are not luck based and they are balanced unless Im wrong on that issue?

Click to expand...

Yes I do think you're very wrong if you think rewards are balanced.

I think you misunderstood really or maybe I did. I was saying that ruins have no real luck factor because in the long run your going to get the same amount of ruins in total. That being said, IMO, they have no luck factor at all, it all evens out in the end the same way if they were not on at all. Understand I live in Vegas and it is like people who play Black Jack think that if a player takes away the dealer bust card it made them lose when in fact other peoples play have no bearing on your win or loss. All those cards are Xs and Ys and only your play against the dealer is what makes you have the edge or let's the house have the edge. I was only saying that ruins really have no luck unless the odds are stacked against you meaning that you have a greater chance to get one over the other every given time. So that being said it doesn't matter to me if you guys keep them on or off, it really is the same thing in the long run. I would prefer them on for a more "fun" type of game. As for the VC conditions, I don't really mind either way, I like to play within the rules so if you guys put VC cond on thats great and if they are off thats good too. I think it would be best to have a VC on and if you don't want to follow the VC that is your choice. The more you take out of the game the more dull it becomes (ruins, barbs, changing the AI bias... etc)

Click to expand...

Oh I really do understand what you mean regarding the law of large numbers. But the fact that something yields average results over a large number of trials is totally irrelevant when comparing one game to another. That is my point.
I agree however that if we both played 50 games, ruins wouldn't matter (and I think that's your argumentation). But you'd agree that on a game to game basis it does matter (which is my point) and that fact is why I do not like it.

Though, yes... ruins are somewhat more fun. Until you get Map, Barb, 55gold :/

Really, I can see why someone would preffer them on. The fun of exploring and not really caring for results. But to me it doesn't offset the negative.

Edit: The part you edited in your post just confirms this. You're making the argument that they are balanced due to them having equal probability. But that isn't what I'm talking about at all. I'm saying that one specific result is better than another and only randomness will give you one result or the other. And that, I do not like. The fact that on average it's the same is a totally different matter which to me isn't relevant... for the simple reason that we do not compare hundreds of games.

Ok this is my last post. I guess your saying in the short run they matter which I can agree with but in all honesty I think you have to look at the big picture because we don't just play 1 game we are addicts and we play 1000s. On a last note and I think you went over this, when you do these challenges even if you take off the ruins and compare them to each other they are always going to have odd results and factors which will change finish times drastically. Case in point is like on that #38 challenge so far my game was the only one where Alex got rolled very early and that has a major impact if he stays in the game or not with turn times. However, seriously, if anyone knows the true math behind popping ruins Id like to know. Is that true if I settle a cap or a city and pop a ruin in the same turn do I have a better chance of getting a Free Pop ruin?

Acken said:

As a side note the currentsituation with like 5 challenges o the forum was the situation why I started to not care about them.
I obviously don't want to forbid people from proposing but if at least one was aimed to regroup more people that would be great.

Click to expand...

That's our new chaos free challenge series for you, good sir! Honestly... all I can say is just... sigh. I see no way to counter this.

Regarding upload dates, I want to elaborate on my previous statement. I really expect the challenges to be regular and bi-weekly, but I'd rather have a 3 days window than specific date. And again, I don't have strong objection to the latter. I just think it's a more realistic goal for us.

Fluphen Azine said:

Ok this is my last post. I guess your saying in the short run they matter which I can agree with but in all honesty I think you have to look at the big picture because we don't just play 1 game we are addicts and we play 1000s. On a last note and I think you went over this, when you do these challenges even if you take off the ruins and compare them to each other they are always going to have odd results and factors will change finish times drastically. Case in point is like on that #38 challenge so far my game was the only one where Alex got rolled very early and that has a major impact if he stays in the game or not with turn times. However, seriously, if anyone knows the true math behind popping ruins Id like to know. Is that true if I settle a cap or a city and pop a ruin in the same turt n do I have a better chance of getting a Free Pop ruin?

Click to expand...

Problem being we do compare only one game to the next rather than a lot of them
I also understand that we cannot eliminate all elements of luck (or randomness since you seem to not like the L word (pun intended)). But I'm just not a fan of ruins :/ At least if rewards were relatively equal in value I'd like them a lot better. That's why I'd appreciate some games with it turned off. If it was up to me it would be always off but I doubt seeing previous answers here that it would be the case.

The Pilgrim said:

That's our new chaos free challenge series for you, good sir! Honestly... all I can say is just... sigh. I see no way to counter this.

Regarding upload dates, I want to elaborate on my previous statement. I really expect the challenges to be regular and bi-weekly, but I'd rather have a 3 days window than specific date. And again, I don't have strong objection to the latter. I just think it's a more realistic goal for us.

Click to expand...

Well a community is better when people are free so I'm fine with some people proposing their stuff in their own thread. But I'm also not really interested in playing a random map with only one other guy... That's why a resurgence of something that at least a handful are interested to participate in is interesting.

Don't really care if intervals of time are flexible. As long as it doesn't go shorter than 12 days and longer than 20 I guess.

Posters should remember to deactivate Map DLCs though...

kb27787 said:

hmmm I can't seem to attach files in PM... but take a look at this one...
Ridiculous huh? so much polder terrain.

Click to expand...

Well, that games not going to work. I couldn't load it because I don't have the appropriate dlc. Disabling the pointless map packs is going to be a must for these games.

Does anyone know how to remove DLC? I've gone in and unchecked the explorers map pack, but it seems to reactivate itself every time I reload civ.

It would be nice if there were always link to this thread (or other information thread). This would make it easier for new players to know the meaning of challenge series and propose new challenges to host etc.

Central problem with ruins in general, in my opinion, is that particular culture ruin, which theoretically enables one to end up with 7 turn faster NC (time invested in a monument), given identical build path and skill level. I say it's a small factor, especially comparing to the luck of CS alliances and random barb camp placements (hello, worker in a barb camp next to Kuala Lumpur giving a 10-15 turn faster full tradition)

Another good one is meeting two unsuspecting Egyptian workers on t.14, then making peace and sending a caravan into Thebes ~t.30 to completely eliminate warmongering penalties and befriend the recipient of said caravan, just because it's the biggest diplomatic bonus early in the game.

Whether all three events will line up inside one game, giving the player a significant amount of head start is the question. But i say the free culture ruin has smaller magnitude than a free alliance with Kuala and/or 2 free workers. Certainly, removing ruins will make a playing field slightly more level. On the other hand - is it worth it to deliberately make exploration process less entertaining just to end up with 5-10 turn slower finish times for each skill level?

My vote - keep em.

Very well said Moriarte. Also, as someone else mentioned, it would really hurt The Shoshone, so I've decided to keep them in the game.

I think we should alternate ruins and no ruins games just for the sake of those who feel strongly against them. Personally I agree they have no game changing effect, yet they add to randomness and skew the playing field. I see both arguments as valid.

P.S. Totally unrelated - nice game you had there, DB. Very well done. But man, you've got lucky!

The Pilgrim said:

P.S. Totally unrelated - nice game you had there, DB. Very well done. But man, you've got lucky!

Click to expand...

What are you talking about? Was it Mt K? Not going against the GW? Basically every capital having no defense? Venice aka the weakest ai civ in the game? Yeah, I was pretty damn lucky.

The Pilgrim said:

I can be a co-host. 1 game per month is something I believe I can do reliably and if at some point my schedule changes, I'll make sure to find a replacement. Or just leave everything to DB.

Click to expand...

Alright, you are the man. No take backs!

Manpanzee said:

(I'd also like to request that saves that don't require map packs be somehow made to be accessible for those without the DLC. The Assyria map that was posted the other day looks like it doesn't use anything that I don't have, but I wasn't able to load it due to missing map DLC. I'm not sure how that happens or how to get around it.)

Click to expand...

I agree. All map packs will need to be disabled. It should increase the amount of participants.

The Pilgrim said:

11. The use of spoilers. Please, GIANT PLEASE, use spoiler tags. Not just for pics but for game stories as well.

Click to expand...

Alright, I think that can be arranged.

TLHeart said:

What I would like to see, is people post the start file from the games they found interesting, had fun with, or just plain got stomped...

And adjusting the settings before generating the map, makes for some very interesting maps, instead of just knowing what the map is by saying Pangaea. Makes exploration more fun, in my opinion.

I play for fun, and some of that fun is comparing my play style with others.

Click to expand...

Agree...if you have any games saved (with map packs disabled, please send them my way. Email is dallasmurpyhbird@gmail.com because apparently you cannot send them through pm.

Acken said:

As a side note the currentsituation with like 5 challenges o the forum was the situation why I started to not care about them.
I obviously don't want to forbid people from proposing but if at least one was aimed to regroup more people that would be great.

Click to expand...

I'm going to quote this in the new deity challenge series introduction. I believe this sums up the issue with the current challenges.

Acken said:

9. Strong no. That is my most hated setting in Hof and Gotm. It increases the risk of replaying, it's 100% luck based and I just hate it altogeher. If rewards were balanced it would be okay but they sadly aren't.

Click to expand...

I think at first we will start with them on, and maybe start alternating between on and off. We'll see where the interest is as we move forward.

Acken said:

Well a community is better when people are free so I'm fine with some people proposing their stuff in their own thread. But I'm also not really interested in playing a random map with only one other guy... That's why a resurgence of something that at least a handful are interested to participate in is interesting.

Don't really care if intervals of time are flexible. As long as it doesn't go shorter than 12 days and longer than 20 I guess.

Posters should remember to deactivate Map DLCs though...

Click to expand...

I've decided every other Friday as someone suggested. It fits in your 12-20 range, plus there will probably be a boost in activity if they are posted right before the weekend. And ****NO DLC MAPS.*****

BlackWizard said:

It would be nice if there were always link to this thread (or other information thread). This would make it easier for new players to know the meaning of challenge series and propose new challenges to host etc.

Click to expand...

Good call...it could clear up some future confusion.

DingleBirdy said:

I've decided every other Friday as someone suggested. It fits in your 12-20 range, plus there will probably be a boost in activity if they are posted right before the weekend. And ****NO DLC MAPS.*****

Click to expand...

Every other Friday sounds perfect. Are we starting this Friday? Next Friday? Do you have a save picked out?

hicks53081 said:

Every other Friday sounds perfect. Are we starting this Friday? Next Friday? Do you have a save picked out?

Click to expand...

This Friday will be Game #1 and yes I have a save picked out. But seriously send me any saves you think would make for a good community challenge. I would like a stockpile of games in my saves folder. And remember, Disable map pack DLC. Again, my email is dallasmurpyhbird@gmail.com

Great, I'm excited. Do you have a screen shot of the save? I want to make another suggestion. Please don't start messing around with the start dates in the settings. Nobody has strategy when the game era is set to start in for example the Industrial era. It just becomes a clusterf*ck and nobody knows what to build and when to build it. Just keep everything in the ancient era.

DingleBirdy said:

This Friday will be Game #1 and yes I have a save picked out. But seriously send me any saves you think would make for a good community challenge. I would like a stockpile of games in my saves folder. And remember, Disable map pack DLC. Again, my email is dallasmurpyhbird@gmail.com

Click to expand...

I look very much forward to it.
Granted, for people saying disable ruins, I'm totally fine with that (will probably revert to my GnK build order for early game as scouts are almost useless without them save for religious CS... but even then worker first is better)

But while you're at it, would you consider disabling barbarians as well? (they are rather luck based too but then we'd miss out on a lot of easy CS clear encampment quests...)

1. I don't think the game upload dates matter, just as long as there ARE some challenges...
2. Don't care either...
3. I would say leave that up to the OP... winning with a certain victory condition can actually be the challenge rather than winning at all, I think it tends to add some spice to the challenge, so I wouldn't forbid predetermined VCs...
4. Duh.
5. Yes.
6. Yes.
7. I don't see why you would disable this. I personally think having a LOT of barbs early on sometimes adds interesting elements to the game (makes honor openers viable etc.)
8. Makes sense, I agree.
9. Yes. While they're not always completely fair, they do help keep the game interesting in my opinion.

Aibeit said:

7. I don't see why you would disable this. I personally think having a LOT of barbs early on sometimes adds interesting elements to the game (makes honor openers viable etc.)

Click to expand...

Let me start by saying the only time I have ever played with raging barbs was on a GotM. I don't have a lot of experience with them. The issue raised is it seems to work the opposite as intended. The idea behind them is to slow down human progress at the beginning of the game. It forces you to create a military and thus changes your build order, tech order, and possibly social policy selections. In reality it causes the ai to never expand as they constantly lose their settlers. They also lose their workers because they are so bad at protecting them. In the end it causes the ai to just basically sit there in passive mode for the entire game.

hicks53081 said:

Great, I'm excited. Do you have a screen shot of the save? I want to make another suggestion. Please don't start messing around with the start dates in the settings. Nobody has strategy when the game era is set to start in for example the Industrial era. It just becomes a clusterf*ck and nobody knows what to build and when to build it. Just keep everything in the ancient era.

Click to expand...

Yep, ancient will be the set starting date. And here is a picture of the the starting point for you.

Are modified maps and starts OK? I have something in mind like adding extra AI to OP starting position or giving one of the AI's extra settler. I have all kinds of different ideas but if I create those maps they wont be interesting to my because I already know surprises that are waiting.

If people send you saves, ask for a short description as to why it is a spacial game