[Religion and Revolution]: Large Rivers

Hi guys,

since I believe, that we might have a large discussion about this, I have opened a new thread.
(This feature is really heavy considering concept and implementation.)

General Idea:

Additionally to our Normal Rivers we could consider implementing Large Rivers.
Large Rivers would be something similar to Amazonas or Mississippi.

Implementation:

Technically Large Rivers would be something totally different than Normal Rivers !
They will become a new TerrainType with lots of specific rules.
(It would be a mixture of Ocean and Land.)

This will allow:

1. Creation of Transition Graphics (Normal Rivers will flow into Large Rivers.)
2. Logic for Movement (Movement Costs, some Ships may / may not travel Large Rivers, some Units may / may not cross Large Rivers)
3. Placement of Bonus Ressources (Fish, Crabs, ...) on Large Rivers
4. New Improvements (Bridge, Fishing Port, ...) on Large Rivers
5. Creation of FeatureTypes for Large Rivers (Flood Plains, Sand Banks ...)

Technical Challenges:

1. Generation of Large Rivers with Mapscripts (should be rare, and always flow into ocean or large lakes)
2. The transition graphics (normal river flowing into large river) will be tricky
3. Good AI wil be heavy (settle, build improvements, build / buy / use units , calculate movement paths ... accordingly.)

Comment:

This feature could be very interesting and offer many new strategies and possibilities for further features.
Implementation of something like this is definitely possible.

However, this is really heavy work.
Do not underestimate the challenges that need to be solved. (Graphics, generation of maps and AI logic in DLL.)

Summary:

This is one of the many ideas, I would like to keep in mind / plan for later releases. (Definitely not Release 2.)
Several experienced modders (DLL for logic, Python for Maps and Graphics) would need to be available (team or cooperation) to successfully implement this.

Sounds like a very difficult and complex feature/add-on
But definitely worth a try, it has so many possibilities

Probably you can even get some help from the Civ IV modding community
I'm sure something like this would be very popular there too
(I know about the strategic rivers thread, but that's very basic compared to this plan)

Big rivers gets my vote. I've always been frustrated with the presentation of the rivers in the game how units can cross them so easily. They look more like streams than rivers.

Of course, since this is such a massive change, we should be careful about it.

But I think it is really interesting, specially considering how navigable rivers were of extreme importance in the colonization of North America.

Looking forward to this! Rivers will make or break a war again!

We need one or two modder supporting us if this feature shall become reality. Please feel free to contact one of us!

raystuttgart & me have had some conversations about this and I think it could be done with some help on the "Technical Challenges" aspects. I would try to make the graphics, but I simply have not so much time to do the rest.

I can also help with Map generation and AI, but I simply can not say I will create all the system from scratch at this point (doing this is on my plans, but there is no hurry for this in Doane yet). I would need help to do the base or implement it from the river mod.

Just the transitions graphics could take some time, since I will have to figure how to do that...

Can we please re visit this topic. I think this game desperately needs rivers that can be traveled up by boats but yet still crossed by land units...

Seems as very good idea, especially the possibility for strategic use of ships.
On the other hand RAR 1.5(haven't time to play 1.6) as Ray said requires a lot of work and is already very heavy on CPU resources, and pretty slow compared to some other mods.So maybe would be better to develop some other features.
I always felt that RAR missed more diversity between nations and especially between units.Best example is Medieval Conquest mod from Kailric, which has some really exotic features.Implementing this could make mod more interesting, at least in my humble opinion.

1.6 is much much faster imho

Sanotra said:

Can we please re visit this topic. I think this game desperately needs rivers that can be traveled up by boats but yet still crossed by land units...

Click to expand...

I still like the idea of "Large Rivers".

Maybe some day some modder(s) might create a good implementation for something like that.
(Good meaning stable, performant, understood by AI, balanced and atmospheric.)

Hrvoje193 said:

... which has some really exotic features. Implementing this could make mod more interesting, at least in my humble opinion.

Click to expand...

There is no doubt, that RaR still offers space for many more interesting features.
I personally however prefer features to blend nicely into the rest of the mod and enhance general gameplay without feeling "exotic".

We will see what the community will come up with in the future.

raystuttgart said:

I still like the idea of "Large Rivers".

Maybe some day some modder(s) might create a good implementation for something like that.
(Good meaning stable, performant, understood by AI, balanced and atmospheric.)



There is no doubt, that RaR still offers space for many more interesting features.
I personally however prefer features to blend nicely into the rest of the mod and enhance general gameplay without feeling "exotic".

We will see what the community will come up with in the future.

Click to expand...

I agree very much. One of the most common problems mods (or open source games) have is that they end up incorporating too many unfinished, underperforming, or unatmospheric features.

As for Medieval Conquest particularly, I don't know since I haven't played it yet, but I imagine Kailric has delivered solid features for the mod.

Androrc the Orc said:

I agree very much. One of the most common problems mods (or open source games) have is that they end up incorporating too many unfinished, underperforming, or unatmospheric features.

As for Medieval Conquest particularly, I don't know since I haven't played it yet, but I imagine Kailric has delivered solid features for the mod.

Click to expand...

MC is something like that.It is unfinished, with lots of things that needs correction, and that is big difference comparing to RAR.
On the other hand it has revolutionary features.
Blending best of both would significantly enhance already great mods.

Religion and Revolution 1.7 will be published on short notice.

After 1.7 has been published we presumably will no longer work on new features for the base mod with the exception of implementing one new feature "Africa Screen / Triangle trade".

However, all mod-modders are free to work on a feature "Large Rivers"...

Maybe we should discuss general topics like that in this thread or another thread that is not specific to a concept / feature.

Ramkamhaeng (Civ4-modder and former Civ4Col-modder for TAC Tortuga) has actually almost succeeded implementing something like this for Civ4.
(see here)

His work is really impressive and quite promissing.

Hello Ray,

I should you inform, if I'm finished with my feature. Well, it's almost finished and can be found here.


This package contains all my changes made for PAE. Thus it will give you a good overview over all changed files. One problem could be the adaptation of my Worldbuilder screen for the river generation. Without the screen it would be difficult to add the river definition onto the map.
An automatic generation by map scripts could be useful for you. This was not planned by me for PAE.

The textures are not finished, but I assume this could be ignored by you. For Col you probably need an own set of textures. I can give you my sketches (xcf files) later if needed.

Regards

You are already almost done ?

I don't know if your work might one day be used by a Civ4Col feature but it is really interesting for sure.
There would probably still be a lot of work to be invested however.

Thanks for the update.

*Bump*

It'd be cool if large rivers also "block" or have a strong "resistance" against culture spread. Like one city on one side of a large river perhaps shouldn't be able to easily exert its culture onto the other side of the river easily. Would be interesting then if two powers naturally end up creating a border between them with the large river as it's simply easier to expand on "your own side" of the river rather than across large rivers.