SGOTM 15 - Xteam

leif erikson said:

Victory screen says 1 more turn until vote.

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I believe it says: 1 more vote until next election and 9 more turns until next vote.
This normally means that there has just been an election this turn and we'll see the result next turn. This also means that we can do different kind of cheasy stuff this turn: switch religion, gift cities etc., that will alter the outcome of the vote.

Htadus said:

Z, no votes.

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This is good. So Eliza didn't like any of the proposals possible.

Htadus said:

EDIT: Forgot to mention that we got circumnavigation bonus last turn.

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Yes I noticed that.

Also noticed that the Shaka deal is possible again.

Regarding tiles counting: Yes mountains do count.
Hovering the mouse over our empire on the scoreboard will show the total number of tiles = 1784. Looking at the Info Screen: Land Area shows the current number of tiles multiplied by 1000, so we have 253.
Doing the math: 253/1784=0.1418=14.18% as indicated by the victory screen.

And yes there are a lot of unclaimed tiles, mostly mountains that will be very hard to claim. Domination will look very much like conquest.

Nice going Htadus.

Oooh - but this map is an evil masterpiece - all those choke points...

Now that Hammy's stack is removed we need all speed into Babylonia right?

What are we going to do with the eastern army? I notice it's a bit smaller than it used to be, but all the same, our economy can't afford for it to be idle. So when do we attack Mongolia....?

If we don't meet a lot of resistance in Babylonia, our stack may be able to split and take on more than one city at a time. Not sure how much Hammy has got left to throw at us though - there might be more?

He have to keep hammering...

Haven't looked at the save yet, but seems as though Htadus has done extremely well for us. Hope he'll play a few more turns. Very nice and unexpected to get circimnav. Pleased that we were able to get CoL just in time to build Egyptian CHs.

Should have time to check save and comment further in a few hours.

I do not think the map will allow us to split the forces untill the two closest Babylonian cities are taken. Then we can send the main force to Babylon and second to the third closest city.

I started moving trebs and WE from Egypt to babylon. It should speed up the war progress when we get to GLH capital.

I only played 10 turns so far and would like to at least play another 5-6 turns if it is ok.

We should heal the units in our culture. Then move in with a the entire stack to take the first city. Normally, I loose 2 Trebs per city with 4-6 defenders. So I intend to replenish the force to keep the momentum up.

Once the CH's are in, one city's focus should be building a few Spy's. also need to identify and develop 2 cities to be GP farms during GA. Kyoto could be one but not sure about the second.

BTW, Eliza has granadiers.

Htadus said:

I only played 10 turns so far and would like to at least play another 5-6 turns if it is ok.

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Fine with me, drive on!

Htadus said:

Once the CH's are in, one city's focus should be building a few Spy's. also need to identify and develop 2 cities to be GP farms during GA. Kyoto could be one but not sure about the second.

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Should probably put a plan together for the GA.
Next players task.

Htadus said:

BTW, Eliza has granadiers.

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zamint3 said:

I believe it says: 1 more vote until next election and 9 more turns until next vote.
This normally means that there has just been an election this turn and we'll see the result next turn. This also means that we can do different kind of cheasy stuff this turn: switch religion, gift cities etc., that will alter the outcome of the vote.

Click to expand...

Shouldn't read that thing too early in the morning.

zamint3 said:

Regarding tiles counting: Yes mountains do count.
Hovering the mouse over our empire on the scoreboard will show the total number of tiles = 1784. Looking at the Info Screen: Land Area shows the current number of tiles multiplied by 1000, so we have 253.
Doing the math: 253/1784=0.1418=14.18% as indicated by the victory screen.

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Looked to me like we could gain domination without attacking the Incan/Malinese team? But a lot of combat to go, slogging most of the way.

zamint3 said:

And yes there are a lot of unclaimed tiles, mostly mountains that will be very hard to claim. Domination will look very much like conquest.

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By design, I'm sure.

The problem with taking on just Eliza gang is the balance of AP power. Hope they both learn Mass Media soon, then we do not have to be bothered with the darn AP.

Priority for us is to build a Hindu missionary and gift it to tokugava. I am going to see if I can do the same to Hammy via Caraval. That is the easiest way to get the religion to spread easily.

Once toku have the Hindu religion, we can force him to Hindu with a Spy if needed.

Got to go.

Any idea what to do with the newest GG?

Settle in Patali?
Attache to a unit and spread the experiance?
Add to another production city?
Leave it alone for a while?

Htadus said:

Priority for us is to build a Hindu missionary and gift it to tokugava. Don't we have an even more pressing need for missionaries in numerous Egyptian cities that will benefit greatly from expansion, or are you ready to switch to Caste soon? If not, then we need to switch to OR. I am going to see if I can do the same to Hammy via Caraval. Didn't think a missionary could enter a city that doesn't have open borders. Am I wrong about that? That is the easiest way to get the religion to spread easily. Once toku have the Hindu religion, we can force him to Hindu with a Spy if needed.

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Why is there a need, particularly a pressing one, to convert Toku to Hindu?

Thoughts and observations from save:

Would like to have a report on fate of our boats and spies.

We can trade our map for about 200 gold this turn and see no reason not to do so.

Once we build courthouses in the most eastern Egyptian cities, there will be significantly less gain from, need for, a Forbidden Palace in Egypt. Wouldn't it be better to wait and build the FP in DK or Babylon, where we may end up with a CH already in place and much population to whip?

Also, the gain from a CH in either PiR or Thebes right now does not justify whipping them. Much better to grow them while building wealth (which could get gpt loss down to 24, but better to take a greater loss and maximize growth for a few turns). Only Alexandria should be whipped any time soon. Think I understand that we do not have enough spy points to steal Monarchy from Kag, but do not see a pressing need for those points until we are close to negotiating for peace with Ham.

What about IL as a GP farm?

As the tentative plan is to get Calendar and Feudalism from Ham for peace, perhaps we should be researching Calendar, not only to assure that we can obtain both but also to allow the possibility that we complete research on Calendar in time to Negotiate for Astro. If we go to Caste at some point, we might even have a GS, allowing us to bulb half of Astro if we can't successfully negotiate for all of it.

Cactus Pete said:

Why is there a need, particularly a pressing one, to convert Toku to Hindu?

No pressing need to convert Toku but planning needs to be done now. We need to infect to get an espionage bonus.
Thoughts and observations from save:

Would like to have a report on fate of our boats and spies.
Due to poor execution of plans, I did not get a chance to get the caravals into safety. So I decided to place the galley and trireme in the same tile for added stack defense. 1 Caraval survived but loss the other 3. The useless WB became useful as a scout martyr. Sadly our spy was captured and tortured. He never even whispered a sound before biting the capsule.....

We can trade our map for about 200 gold this turn and see no reason not to do so.Sounds like a pgood lan

Once we build courthouses in the most eastern Egyptian cities, there will be significantly less gain from, need for, a Forbidden Palace in Egypt. Wouldn't it be better to wait and build the FP in DK or Babylon, Yes where we may end up with a CH already in place and much population to whip? yes, we should stay flexible and perhaps whip trebs and WE.

Also, the gain from a CH in either PiR or Thebes right now does not justify whipping them. Those two where never intended to be whipped in the current happy state. But the -16 gpt cities are going to be abused. Much better to grow them while building wealth (which could get gpt loss down to 24, but better to take a greater loss and maximize growth for a few turns).I disagree with this. 4 or 5 turns of wasting hammers on CH's will be recoverd during the duration of the game. assuming we can save at an average of 5 gpt, it will take 30 turns to get the return. But we know for a fact that the savings going to be higher. Also we get spy points. We want those CH's. Only Alexandria should be whipped any time soon. Think I understand that we do not have enough spy points to steal Monarchy from Kag, but do not see a pressing need for those points until we are close to negotiating for peace with Ham.It take a little time to generate points. So now is better. Sort of like whipping a Forge earlier than later. It pays back faster. I really need to use the whip in my SP games.

What about IL as a GP farm?I like it.

As the tentative plan is to get Calendar and Feudalism from Ham for peace, perhaps we should be researching Calendar, not only to assure that we can obtain both but also to allow the possibility that we complete research on Calendar in time to Negotiate for Astro. If we go to Caste at some point, we might even have a GS, allowing us to bulb half of Astro if we can't successfully negotiate for all of it.

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I am good with that plan but not before Drama. We are going to need a GTheater in this game. Sooner we build it, more we get back from it.

I can not play tonight. So let us all talk about the next tech and get a feel for what we really need next. I do like Calendar. But is now the right time for it?

Getting a military victory on this map (which is the only kind we're likely to get until we conquer enough of the world for an AP victory, which amounts to the same thing) means going a long route around through the mountain choke points, attacking players in a specific order.

I rather like the idea of attacking both sides and having forces meet in the middle if we can arrange it. Otherwise it is going to be oh so slow - perhaps fatally so if we allow the last AI's to tech too far first. (Eliza has grens already?? )

Is there any way we can swing rebuilding the eastern army and launching an attack on Mongolia independent of our western thrust? Or is that just so much pie in the sky?

I rather like the idea of attacking both sides and having forces meet in the middle if we can arrange it. Otherwise it is going to be oh so slow - perhaps fatally so if we allow the last AI's to tech too far first. (Eliza has grens already?? )Is there any way we can swing rebuilding the eastern army and launching an attack on Mongolia independent of our western thrust? Or is that just so much pie in the sky?" We need to rebuild and maintain a limited defensive army in the east as insurance against a DOW from one of our many worst enemies, probably after some peace negotiations with Toku. However, it would be extremely difficult to field an army that could effectively move through the choke points and attack the Mongol hill cities in route any time soon. Moreover, the Egyptian cities will not be sufficiently productive to create the numbers of troops we'll need until they have grown/expanded. Doubt we should consider going after the Mongols before we have Astro. (Both Shaka and Cyrus seem better future targets at this point, but agree we'll need to open an eastern front again at some point.)

Also, the gain from a CH in either PiR or Thebes right now does not justify whipping them. Those two where never intended to be whipped in the current happy state. But the -16 gpt cities are going to be abused. Only Alexandria qualifies now, so assume you are referring to Giza and IL, but they are not big enough to be abused for a CH. Those two cities need to expand and grow before even being considered for whipping. After whipping Alexandria in a few turns, let's consider switching to Caste for at least 5 turns. In addition to Giza and IL, Eleph, Helio, and Alex all need to be expanded. Much better to grow PiR and Thebes while building wealth (which could get gpt loss down to 24, but better to take a greater loss and maximize growth for a few turns). I disagree with this. 4 or 5 turns [5 and 6]of wasting hammers on CH's will be recoverd during the duration of the game. assuming we can save at an average of 5 gpt, it will take 30 turns to get the return. But we know for a fact that the savings going to be higher. Also we get spy points. We want those CH's. No argument that CHs there are a good long-term investment, and you make a good argument that the sooner the better. What about building wealth in PiR for a turn and then switching to a CH, that way the city grows and we get the use of another mine so that we still get a CH in 6 turns but a little help for the economy as well. As for Thebes, it is a potential powerhouse and needs to grow. No way the pig and the corn shouldn't be utilized immediately, even if that delays a CH. If the economy can handle it, go ahead and build a CH there while growing the city. Only Alexandria should be whipped any time soon. Think I understand that we do not have enough spy points to steal Monarchy from Kag, but do not see a pressing need for those points until we are close to negotiating for peace with Ham. It take a little time to generate points. So now is better. Sort of like whipping a Forge earlier than later. It pays back faster. I really need to use the whip in my SP games.

Suggest using the cow in Varan.

Suggest switching to spy in Pat (and building HE in Delhi for gold for at least a turn, perhaps several depending on what the spy reveals we are confronted with).

Suggest using the specialists in Kyoto as citizens and building a HA in 2 turns. Suspect it may soon prove worth it to risk our lone extant HA in order to cut a road to avoid a cat/treb led counterattack, possibly the road NE of Opis immediately after we take the city. (WE would, of course, move workers into the city so we could repair the road for our own purposes as needed.)

After staring at the map for too long, have decided that the key to this is probably taking England as soon as we can? Not sure if that is even possible, but it is necessary. Just taking London would solve many problem, getting there will crate many more.

The fastest way to get there is through Mongolia. Thinking we need HE in Thebes to support this. If we research Drama and build Globe there, then the city is not going to be affected by defying the AP.

We could use the culture theaters provide in our southern cities bordering on Japan and Egypt, if we can find the time to build them. If our core can supply the units necessary to defeat Hammu, then what little time we have can be used to develop old Egypt to stabilize the economy and prepare to pump units, we going to need a ton of them.

So Drama is probably a good investment for now. Agree that we will need to get into Caste and get some Scientists cooking to claim Astro. Also, need OR to get some culture going in Illinois, Alex, Elephantine, Helio and Giza.

CP may be right that we need to take Zulu next, but it is the long way around to England. This map is giving me a severe headache!

leif erikson said:

After staring at the map for too long, have decided that the key to this is probably taking England as soon as we can? Not sure if that is even possible, but it is necessary. Just taking London would solve many problem, getting there will crate many more.

The fastest way to get there is through Mongolia. Thinking we need HE in Thebes to support this. If we research Drama and build Globe there, then the city is not going to be affected by defying the AP.

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I like what I'm reading here, but I also acknowledge that what CP says is true - we just don't have the army to launch into Mongolia real soon. Problem! I think we need to re-launch the eastern army ASAP - however soon that can be practically, I acknowledge it may take some time.

leif erikson said:

This map is giving me a severe headache!

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Like a said, and evil masterpiece. Frankly, the more I stare at it, the more it looks like a map from hell. If we'd just seen it before the only possible victory available to us was military, I would have been panicking to get anything but a military victory. Now we just have bite it.

So what is the fastest way to take London?

leif erikson said:

After staring at the map for too long, have decided that the key to this is probably taking England as soon as we can? Not sure if that is even possible, but it is necessary. Certainly understand the issues with possibility, but the pressing necessity is less clear. Please explain. Just taking London would solve many problem, getting there will crate many more.

The fastest way to get there is through Mongolia. What about a city on the coastal hill west of Giza? Thinking we need HE in Thebes to support this. If we research Drama and build Globe there, then the city is not going to be affected by defying the AP. Question researching Drama and building 6 theaters and then the Globe at this point. Theaters are really useful/cost effective during war if there are dyes available, but, if dyes are anywhere, they are in Mali and unavailable.

We could use the culture theaters provide in our southern cities bordering on Japan and Egypt, if we can find the time to build them. Yes, can't build everything at once, and there are other priorities. Solution to Kag and Sat culture creep will be getting in position to be able to safely take the cities. If our core can supply the units necessary to defeat Hammu, then what little time we have can be used to develop old Egypt to stabilize the economy and prepare to pump units, we going to need a ton of them.

So Drama is probably a good investment for now. Disagree -- see above. Like to hear other opinions. Agree that we will need to get into Caste and get some Scientists cooking to claim Astro. Would argue that the greatest benefit for Caste now will be to run artists to expand cities. If we can make progress toward GSs, so much the better. Also, need OR to get some culture going in Illinois, Alex, Elephantine, Helio and Giza. Either switch to OR with Caste and build wealth instead of CHs while creating missionaries, or build CHs and then switch to OR when economy improves..

CP may be right that we need to take Zulu next, but it is the long way around to England. This map is giving me a severe headache!

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Zululand would be closer to a FPallace built in Bab; it has the Mausoleum of M, extending GAs; only a couple of hill cities; and is much more easily accessible. Moreover, even if we successfully attack England via Mongolia, our conquering forces would be at the end of the world, practically speaking. Seems like that's where we want to go last.

Regarding our GG: What about putting him in Thebes, giving us 9 experience points there, 11 with Vassalage or a stable?

If we do switch to Caste for a few turns after Egyptian cities come out of anarchy, should we also switch to Rep for those turns?

I am not going to worry too much about England at the moment because there is nothing we can do about it. Later we will have the full espionage power of our CH enhanced empire. Then we can do some great deal of damage, catch up technologically and maybe able to push them out of Buddhist = less bad blood. So lets not worry about that for the moment. Also trebs and maces does wonders against even rifle. It is sort of like calvary killing infantry while getting massacred by rifles. Go figure.

So right now what matters is the next tech and recovering from the economics collaps.

Here is the reason why I am pushing for CH's and Theaters. They both can and needed to be whipped and these whips are best done harshly in the recently aquired cities both for the reduction of maintanance and cultural gains. These whips should be done while thay are still small since we all know how small cities can grow back quite rapidly with a granary when there are plenty of food.

I am not preaching to whip production cities that can not grow back fast. Once we get them out of the way, we can get on the merry buisness of building units.

I like the idea of building the HE in thebes, if we build the GT. But can we wait that long? I think not. We need to keep up the supply of units for th Babylon front to the momentum. (That is the reason for diverting units to west from Egypt.) Patali can build units for us rapidly in 4 turns from now. The 25 hammers will become 56 hammers per turn with the HE. That mean 3 Trebs every 4 turns. Or a cat and a treb combo every 2 turns, or......We need that now.

As for Mongols. We can not commit to that war, yet. Once the Infrastructure we need is done in the east, we have 7 - 8 dedicated cities for that front. Lets plan to build a new army of Maces/knights to complement the trebs and WE.

As for the GG, what about planting him in Pi Ramses?

@CP, I am sad to say/afraid that the english culture just took over that coastal tile west of Giza. grrrrrrrr.

"@CP, I am sad to say/afraid that the english culture just took over that coastal tile west of Giza." You're playing now? If so, would urge you to wait for input from others on tech order.

"Here is the reason why I am pushing for CH's and Theaters. They both can and needed to be whipped and these whips are best done harshly in the recently aquired cities both for the reduction of maintanance and cultural gains. These whips should be done while thay are still small since we all know how small cities can grow back quite rapidly with a granary when there are plenty of food." Chs require 8 pop to whip. Giza and Il are not there. Please clarify what you are proposing.

Excellent progress Htadus, please keep on playing for atleast a couple more turns.

Also, after getting a look at most of the map for the first time i have to say i'm very impressed with the map, very well thought out and done Neilmeister.

Speaking of the map, is anybody else suddenly thinking that astro isn't a huge draw anymore? In any case, where do we want to go research wise in the near future (after astro, if we still want it as fast as possible?) For me, Nationalism would be a draw because it unlocks the best legal civic in our situation , but we need med and philo for that. It also leads us to no military advantage. Feud->Guilds->Gunpowder->Chemistry->Steel seems to be the way to go. We'll get most of the techs at a big discount, because most enemies already teching in that direction, and it could be acquired with pointy-stick-research.

Map layout also has an effect on what we should do with satsuma. Still in favour of getting the city and eliminating hatshe. However, keeping the city for us is an option if we want to play it really, really safe. As soon as we capture babylon, there is no danger of a toku conversion anymore. Egypt is a nice production base for restarting the eastern front, but most cities have so many hammers that whipping won't be a huge draw. This means we should grow these city to the max, which in turn will hurt our efficiency because of the increased motherland-yearn. We'll be getting 2 angry faces at size 6 and 3 at size 9. I may sound like a broken record-player but ~16 gpt loss because of unhappiness isn't something we should ignore.

As mentioned we have to get the second front going again as soon as we can handle it. The AP threat is more or less gone, what will cause problems now is a possible CV from eliza with the target cities london, nottingham and york (warwick got culture bombed by eliza) and somebody getting mass media before we're able to secure over 33% of world population.
Agreeing with CP, that shaka is a nice target for us. He might even switch out of buddhism if we could get Nobamba and Nongoma, given that he has founded his own religion and spread it pretty good. But for now continuing towards Babylon has top priority. In case of a forced peace treaty, besides the obvious calender (and maybe monarchy) we could try to get one of the island cities from babylon if possible.

With regards to our empire:
Agree with trading the map and giving shaka the gems for 9gpt as CP and zamint suggested.
Would still be in favour of HE in Pat. It'll benefit us more for the difficult battles against hammy and shaka. Egypt has enough production potential to attack mongolia. GG should probably going to thebes, although this depends if we want the G-Theatre, when and where. Should setup NE in kyoto in the near future. As soon as we have our economy somewhat under control, or got Babylon, we should start settling the rest of our possible city spots. Crab/banana, Fish 3S-2E of dehli and double clam near thebes. All coastal and will help the empire quickly, even if they just build wealth the whole time.

Attacking England will be a pain but might be necessary at some point. I'd be happier if we leave england alone until we have to attack. The turnplayer should start to monitor the Culture numbers every couple turns so we don't get any nasty surprises.

CP, I am at work and wish i can play. But greedy capitalistic corporations won't allow it. . jk.

The save I posted should have shown english border over the coastal hill (going by memory here and may be wrong)

I am confused about the CH's. They are only 120 hammers and that is only 4 pop without OR and Hindu or Forge. I have no intention of whipping with no hammers invested into the CH. That is like throwing away hammers which is a big no no for me except to be done to whip a unit to save a city from being captured.

@ undecided,
I like the idea of settling some cities near the capital and as for Satsuma, i am in favor of ridding India of all Egyption culture and keeping it. So the honor goes to the next player when we come out of 10 turn peace.

After the current build I will start the NE in Kyoto.

If we can steal Monarchy from Toku within next 10 turns, we can plan to get Feud along with other techs from Hammy. I too do not think we need to rely upon Astro. I would like to go the Steel route myself.

Out of time. BTW undecided, did I miss your current tech preferance?

I would switch to OR now, speeding up CHs in cities with Hinduism (Thebes, Pi-R, Memphis) and speeding up HE (which I would build in Pat, where I'd also settle the GG).

I would shut down research (fire scientists and 0% towards Calender) and build wealth for some turns, sell our maps (it should bring more than 200 g I think), and sell the gems. Hopefully Opis will also bring some gold soon.

I would build some fast missionaries in Delhi, Kyoto and Osaka (or maybe even Thebes), before they go back to wealth or whatever our economy allows.

I would wait with the whipping and chopping (Heliopolis) until cities are infected with Hinduism. First missionaries should go to Alexandria and Heliopolis.

Agree with elimination of Hatze asap. Agree with troops on the move from east to west, but we should be prepared for naval invasion in the east.

Cactus Pete said:

After staring at the map for too long, have decided that the key to this is probably taking England as soon as we can? Not sure if that is even possible, but it is necessary. Certainly understand the issues with possibility, but the pressing necessity is less clear. Please explain.

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My greatest concern with England is their tech rate. Besides a lot of commerce resources in their land, they also have the Mahabodhi, providing one gpt per city with Buddhism. All of that raw commerce can support a lot of technology and a large army. England is fielding Grens now, what will they have by the time we get there if we go around Zulu and Persia to get there?

I can see us catching up somewhat in tech, but unless we can get her in a war (don't see how this will be possible), she is free to maintain a comfortable level of military and tech like heck.

Unless we count tiles and can win domination without bothering with her? Then I can see avoiding her, but she could also attack as we get close to domination. Seems to me that we will have to deal with her in some way, and if so, sooner the better?