Yelü Chucai's surprising ascent

Maybe Uzbek WB>library and run 2 scientists to improve tech rate, could do with a worker improving the wheat.

Karakorum to whip library and also run 2 scientists.

Can we send chariots out exploring our neighbours territory, potential to unlock some trade routes as well as war planning.

I'm not averse to bulbing MC for trade bait.
 
Although tech is pretty dismal, I think we can still build the Gem/Gem/Clam city. Once the Gems are mined with a lighthouse and the clams, the city will pay for itself (I think). Better than losing it to WK (or whoever is South of us).
 
Thanks, Cam!

I agree with most of your points made. I still think that settling a new city before we get to +gpt at 30% is a bit risky.

Maybe I have overestimated war risks, but I have been busted several games upon building TGW and the Pyramids by unexpected assaults. I hope you are right about Leaders' characters and AIs being uncomfortable with a spear assault. In my games, chariots prove very lousy defenders even against warriors and archers.

I am more than happy to replace warriors and chariots by infrastructure and workers. Your point on checking WHEOOHRN is well taken.

I thought that the seashore to the East might turn out to be a closed sea, but am happy to just check the vicinity of the gems or keep every unit within our borders, except where pre-roading.

Your mentioning of a next engineer makes me wonder: are we not going to use the two scientists that go with the library right after getting all food/cottage tiles worked? Which will make the next GP dependent on the dice or, even worse, Sid's ideas? I have gotten in one of my latest games two artists and two priests while all the time having close to, or more than, 60% chance of having a great scientist (with TGL and the two scientists up while also having the Oracle and the Parthenon in the capital.) So, we are not keeping the GE for TGL for sure? And we shall sell around our monopoly tech right away?

I'll play in the evening, so there is still some more time for further suggestions for improvement.

[This post crossed with all the other posts on the fourth page above]
 
Metal Casting will prove to be a massive trading chip provided Peter isn't researching it now. We exchange it for Alphabet plus 'whatever' first, and from there see what's ahead of us. I'd be happy to wait a turn after the Alphabet plus 'whatever' trade to see if we can then broker Alphabet rather than Metal Casting around for cheaper technologies ... your call though.

I think that rather than completing a Library first in Karakorum, we could get the Forge up first to run the Engineer, and then get the faster build on the Library. I've not done sums on this though - it's 'gut feel'. I agree with FiveRings's sentiment, that going for a Great Engineer with 'say' 60% odds is highly prone to backfiring ... not that a Great Scientist is necessarily all that bad mind you ... but if we specifically want a Great Engineer for The Great Library (again - it's a tactic that's not everyone's 'cup of tea') then I'd try to keep the :gp: pool as pure as reasonably possible (e.g. > 90%). Depends a bit on timing and the availability / competition for The Great Library - currently unknown.

Very undecided on the Gems-Gems-Clam or other south eastern jungle spots, but I am sorely tempted with the inclination to grab it/them. If you wanted to promote the Chariot (healing purposes) and keep checking around down there, that'd be fine. I'd not get overly concerned about getting to 30%:science: or whatever, our tech' will come through trades and specialists for a while. With that said - not so keen on our tiny military going on strike either, so we must keep our heads above water financially!

Anyway - those are my thoughts. Happy to go with the majority position. Best of luck. :)

[Edit] Just for the record - I have no idea if we're going to get DoWed or not - it just looks really unlikely right now. As borders expand and touch, things may start to get 'elevated', but if we do go down this Metal Casting + widespread trading pathway, we should be able to get a few of these guys to 'Pleased'. Which of them will still plot war at 'Pleased'? Peter and Qin Shi Huang, but not Asoka, Wang Kon, Saladin, or Cyrus.

Pigswill's suggestion of Work Boat > Library in Uzbek if not Worker/Settler is OK by me.
[/Edit]
 
TS played. Nothng very much happened, although I was - and still am - feeling quite uneasy with Sal's Axes and Swords so close to Besh.

The only moments worth mentioning are the MC begotten thru Cai Lun, but useless at the moment as Peter doesn't want to sell Alpha (nobody else has it, Qin has Constr, WK - Currency), OBs with Qin, Sal settling one more city at our NE border (between the horse and the cow), Cyrus settleing a city between Cimmer and Besh, WK settling a city to the South of Uzbek, a barb city to SE of Uzbek.

Everybody byut Qin has copper and axes/spears, and Qin has WE.

We are still at 0% research as we'll not get half the bulbs needed for Math at 100%, and it might be better to switch to 100% when we are working all cottages.

Kara has whipped the library on the last-but-one turn and might build the settler for the gem city at cap.

Nobody is WHEOOHRN, almost ecverybody is pissed with WK.

Judaism spread in our lands, but in Uzbek. I haven't converted as this seems useless and disadvantageous at the moment (Sal is in a much worse relationship with WK than with us).

Silver is mined but stiull under connecting. Kara cottaged enough for the moment.

I see us continuing our infra building adding - hopefully - the gem city to our empire, waiting for somebody willing to trade Alpha with us and moving as fast as we can towards WE/cats thru research and trade. We are still in dire need of workers and good military units.

Save is below, as well as several thumbnails showing all the parts of the empire.
 

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"The best-laid schemes of mice and men often go awry" :undecide:

Thanks for the turnset FiveRings :) - a real shame that Peter's holding out on Alphabet. My immediate inclination is to start researching it ourselves, and eventually prise it out of him after we've put in a few hard yards of our own.

I'm also thinking that we whip the Karakorum Forge out next turn, regrow asap, but run the Engineer at around 5 population points. Those Workers should now be able to deal with improving the various food resources around the place.

We can get Archery in a few turns if there's still 'nervousness' - the Forge whip, if we do it, will again slow our potential tech' rate for the short term however.

Cyrus's new city's a pain.

I was expecting Saladin to settle near the Plains Cows - he seems to be doing all of his expansion toward us, so maybe Mecca's got ocean to its east?

I guess it's good to see that there seems to be a fairly even distribution in the number of cities between the known AIs, as each has 5-6 at the moment, and there doesn't appear to be a runaway.

That proposal from Pigswill for Uzbek's Library also looks like a good idea once the Worker's done.
 
I tried to post a reply, but lost access to the site and my longish text.

So, I'll be brief.
1. Teching Alpha: I am concerned that Peter might have invested at least 150-200 bulbs in MC, and we won't be able to catch up, or will do so on very bad terms. Might be better to wait till somebody puts Alpha on the counter, even if this means getting less significant, but needed techs like IW, Mono, Alpha and math itself, and hopefully, a good one.
2. Lib in Uzbek started to look very good after the no-trade with Peter. Having a second semi-production base near our core might prove important too, though. At the time it seemed urgent to get a worker do the wheat farming.
3. Maybe wait a few turns before whipping the forge in Kara? Or even use the max OF from a settler on reaching cap? (What I should have done with the lib, sorry, but I was focused on getting those bulbs as fast as possible and didn't assess the situation correctly, or was playing w/o enough good thought put into it - with the Bayern-Real semifinal on the TV...) We won't be able to run any specialist for several turns, if we do it right away.
 
On Research:

'Yep' - there are several ways we could play it.

Firstly, our lack of any defensive unit in the short term, the AI's land grab closer to our borders, and now we've got Judaism (and Saladin might demand that we adopt his faith) is possibly of concern. I think that we're still pretty safe, but I was banking on us picking up Archery along the way in this tech-trade frenzy that I expected would happen once we got the Alphabet <> Metal Casting deal done as the initial step. So - do we just want to 'grit the teeth' and self-research Archery for 'skin saving' purposes? I'm not sure one way or the other.

Secondly - FiveRings's concern on Peter possibly self-researching Metal Casting:

If we do gamble that he might be going after it himself, then sitting back and waiting for another AI to trade us Alphabet when they acquire it might possibly our best course. As such, we can continue to stockpile :gold:, hope that some AI leader doesn't demand a 'chunk of change' from us in the meantime, and then spend it on charging after desirable technologies once our tech' exchange has been executed via an Alphabet trade.

On the other hand, if Peter's going after 'say' Construction or Calendar or some such thing, then us making a dent in Alphabet might be enough to tip the balance and he might change his stance. I am just not sure anymore how the AI behaves in Warlords (re. trading away monopoly tech's) given that BtS made such a huge overhaul to the AI's behaviour.

I must say however, that I'd be really uninclined to trade away Metal Casting for something other than Alphabet within the next few turns on the evidence we have before us. If we were attacked, then out of desperation we might seek Iron Working and/or Archery, but otherwise I'd vote for hanging off for the possibility of a 'Alphabet + whatever' <> Metal Casting trade.

On National Epic

We're still some distance from Literature, but nonetheless, it mightn't be a bad idea to nominate Uzbek or Cimmerian as our future :gp: farm, so the other can look at a Barracks and what-not, and become more of a unit pump. Also, should we put The Great Library in the :gp: farm or Karakorum (assuming all goes to plan)?

On Expansion:

Both the Gems-Gems-Clam and Visigoth have appeal. What's our policy?

Roster:

FiveRings
Pigswill << Up
woopdeedoo << On Deck
Cam​
 
I reckon we should just go ahead and settle gems/gems/clam quick. I'm sure something will change in the next set re getting Alpha. I haven't had a chance to check the save so am currently unable to see where Visigoth is...

Edit: Checked the SS, what resources are at Visi?
 
Got it.

Not convinced we need a forge in Kara in the short term, I'd rather build a settler there after it grows, I'd also run a couple of scientists to increase our research rate. If we get GE save it for possible Glib, GS could build an academy in Kara. Glib is cetainly not guaranteed if we're going maths>construction at our current research rate.
We really do need more workers, Cimmerian could build a worker before completing granary, Uzbek whips worker before starting library, Beshbalik can build some warriors for MP duties, chariots to go exploring. Techwise continue with maths and wait for another AI to research alpha.
 
Blank - posted in wrong thread.

Forgot how to delete this...
 
It depends upon how badly we want The Great Library, and what chances we're prepared to take to get it.

Running Scientists in Karakorum now obviously means that we'll lose the 100% chance of picking up a Great Engineer there, while waiting for another AI to acquire Alphabet is also 'an unknown' in terms of timeframe.

Getting to Literature can be done various ways, but I was expecting to trade Metal Casting for Alphabet, and then getting Maths and Construction through trades, while self-researching Literature.

Part-researching Alphabet ourselves is one approach to encouraging Peter to trade Alphabet to us, but I guess there's no guarantees on that one either in light of his position right now.

Unfortunately I've got no crystal ball in terms of how soon another AI will get Alphabet, or if we did put some research into it ourselves whether Peter would be more prepared to exchange it for Metal Casting. I don't know if we began running Scientists in Karakorum whether we'd still end up getting a Great Engineer, but I suspect that if we did pop a Great Scientist next, that our chances of ever getting this Wonder would be small given; a fairly tight timeframe, no Marble, limited production capacity, and we have one Industrious AI one the map who's already technologically advanced in Qin.

In the meantime, we're still vulnerable in terms of attack. I'm less concerned on this than I sense that FiveRings is, but I am quite OK if everyone wanted for us to research Archery just so we can defend ourselves if required. I had anticipated that we'd get Archery in one of our trade deals stemming from Metal Casting, but 'no dice' so far.

As per earlier in this thread, I'd not bother with building Warriors. We've got seven units for five cities, so we should have our MPs covered - even if we do choose to build Gems-Gems-Clam.

Anyway - there's my two cents. :)
 
I'm guessing that unlke BTS alphabet is treated as a monopoly tech. Maths is a wonder tech and probably won't be traded until HG is built. In BTS the AIs are incredibly reluctant to trade construction for some byzantine reason. In conclusion I think that if we're going for elepults we'll have to research it ourselves and we won't have time for elepults and Glib. If that's the choice then we either go for alphabet>lit now and delay elepults, possibly until after AI longbows (but maybe not) or we forget Glib.
 
I'm open to hearing everyone's views, but the Pyramids - Great Library - Philosophical combination is really compelling to me, and I'd push on with Alphabet in order to get the trades underway (hopefully Peter will trade it given our partial-research, or another AI will acquire it and break the monopoly).

With that said, I'm fine if the roster wanted to go for Archery for a defensive unit in light of no Copper, or go straight to Construction, but my preference is for Literature.
 
I am watching this game a bit paralel and not exactly deeply, that said I opened your last save to throw some thoughts on situation with Cam being uncertain

and honestly there is couple of things I don't understand ;-).

1) Why did you went MC, it looks like it was selfteched
2) why the cottages? You will gun for spec economy especially with Mids and you need employed scientists (btw that tile 1W of cap will have to be farmed after CS, don't forget this ;-))

There is barb spot super east which would be neat to get before AI's. And you could settle another city between for clams+2x gems (that is important spot), that would bring you to 7 cities which is good.

The land is a lot unimproved and there is no point into growing into more tiles until you improve them (aka that granary in cimmerian should be switched with worker)

You could get Math+IW from Peter for Metal Casting, I would probably do the trade. There is still enough trees to chop more workers and there is that strong gems spot you should definitely get and need IW for it

Wang Kon has already currency btw.

I would probably be on the side of going Alpha. barbs can be mastered with chariots.

Monarchy (for the wine), Calendar (the silk in the east barb city which you hopefully get) are on shopping list

I would probably not go for military tech now (construction) since i feel that cats age is beyond now and would be better to fix eco, start on the bulb strategy into ren era

Alpha->Lit->Music probably with employed scientists in cap and some small cities when they get there.

Really mostly baffled by the MC... honestly don't see any reason why to get it on this map. That's ton of research beakers (was it as trade bait instead of aesth in bts? then use it as that)
 
Having built Gwall and Mids in Karakorum we popped Geng which bulbed MC as trade bait.

Our strategy has been slightly inconsistent, we've been going for rex which has slowed down our research while teching for elepult rush so we probably will be too late as we have to fit in HbR as well.
 
ah I see... i don't want too much mentor here right now, but I will try to wrap my thoughts somehow

I really think that when you decided for those 2 wonders you already decided that you won't do any kind of rush and you were approaching mid game warring (ren break out of course), you secured enough land and resources (well you have still check the iron, but since there is no copper anywhere i am almost 100% certain there WILL be iron).

If you really wanted elepults, well you have to realize that at this point you should be at peak of military production of the units.
Going HBR through writing path in this situation looks best option you would use, with trying for trading math after HBR or bulbing, but that is past and you have to look to the future.

I don't like the bulb you took, the beakers potential of GP's is over 1k beakers and you used it on ~700 beakers tech.
In this situation I think you could have waited couple of turns (alphabet+literature) and rush build TGL since you have no marble and the TGL build will be expensive 350 hammers, but that is past too of course ;-)

Your best bet is to employ some scientists in cap next turn. fix land with more workers, get those 2 more cities I mentioned and try to get infra in them (granary, library) and employ some more scientists around.
Generate couple of GS's for the usual CS->paper->Edu->nat->lib->mt->gp beeline.

Check each turn the Music situation. I think in warlrods it's tougher to have under control (no aesth block). If it is favorable I would try for the GA to generate massive gpp's around ~100 AD.
 
Horseback Riding is not required for War Elephants in Warlords - although it is for the Ger.

Golden Ages don't produce +100%:gp: in Warlords.

Two :gp:s are required to fire off the first Golden Age in Warlords.

The Great Library is still available as a Wonder, and our capital is producing nothing but Great Engineer points at the moment.
 
I regard going Alpha->Lit and building TGLib as attainable only if we get a GrEng. I'd rather keep researching Math, then go Constr if still no Alpha trade available. We'll have at least one good milunit type then.

I'd also keep open the possibility to build milunits in a second city in the core (and finish the barracks there, I don't mind if this happens after buiding a Lib there).

I'd also look at Kara as a good GPF (NE and OU as the two NatWonders there), but am OK with both other props of Cam.

I'd suggest that we go forth one way or another, with P throwing in the decisive vote, if necessary.
 
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