Tech Tree Discussion

"Stone Tools" (C2C) was renamed to "Hard-Hammer Percussion". The reason for just a re-name and not a new tag is that so many buildings and improvements depended upon TECH_STONE_TOOLS that it was easier just to re-name the tech.

So now we have 5 techs ....

1. Hard-Hammer Percussion (TECH_STONE_TOOLS)
2. Soft-Hammer Percussion (TECH_SOFT_HAMMER_PERCUSSION)
3. Chopping (TECH_CHOPPING)
4. Scraping (TECH_SCRAPING)
5. Piercing (TECH_PIERCING)

What's the problem? :confused:

Well in the current C2C SVN I have both Hard-Hammer Percussion and Stone Tools with all the stuff still on Stone Tools:confused:

So what you are saying is there is not what I am seeing at all! And yes I updated the SVN this morning and copied everything across and started a new game. Anyway appointment time now.
 
So what you are saying is there is not what I am seeing at all! And yes I updated the SVN this morning and copied everything across and started a new game. Anyway appointment time now.


Really can i get a screenie of these both, thx.
 
@Dancing Hoskuld

Hard-Hammer Percussion still enables the same stuff that Stone Tools did. Noting has been moved from them. The stuff that is enabled are ...

Hard-Hammer Percussion (TECH_STONE_TOOLS)
Buildings: Stone Quarry, Quern, Stoneworker's Hut
Revealed Resources: Stone, Marble, Obsidian, Fine Clay
Improvements: Stone Workers Toolshop, Gather Special Stone

If you want those things moved to the other techs let me know what would be more appropriate for them.

Note that all the new techs share the same icon/button so it may be confusing. I have not made any new icon/buttons for the new techs yet since I was unsure if you had some for them already or if a new tech gets removed for some reason.
 
Really can i get a screenie of these both, thx.

This time when I load it up it is fine.:confused:

I would suggest Hard Percussion cost half what it does. Scraping, Chopping and Piercing one third of there current costs and you drop Soft Percussion.

Slash and Burn needs to move a bit to where you have the tools for slashing. I would suggest Hafting which should probably be called something like Composite Tools to reflect the fact that they are tools made from stone, wood and some binding agent (string, tar, resin or rawhide).

Portable Shelter was a game mechanic in RoH to allow the building of the Nomad Unit. If we are going to use it in C2C then it needs to be after Simple Woodworking or Composite Tools. We then have two of "our" Nomad units. I think Portable Shelter should be a requirement for Stone Shelters.

We need a new colour back ground for nomad unit promotions so only they can get them.

On units: - basically hominids and great apes start with three units "bash with something", "poke at with something" and "throw stuff at". "Throw stuff at" is the C2C stone thrower. At Hard Percussion a new unit "Bash with sharp stone" or earliest Axeman (hits with stone axe head in both hands) becomes available. With Simple Wood Woodworking "Bash with branch shaped for purpose" or Clubman and "Poke at with long branch" or Early Spearman (wood) come along. With Heat Treatment you get Early Spearman (hardened wood).

With Hafting you should get both Spearman (stone), Axeman (stone) and Clubman (stone mace). However you still have the two tech axe making and spear making so perhaps they should stay but be a bit cheaper. Say Hafting at 3/4 cost and Spear/Axe Making being half cost.

BtW the new tech tree has made it impossible to get all three religions (Druid, Shaman and Tengri) and get to Sedentary Lifestyle first.:goodjob:
 
This time when I load it up it is fine

Well that's good.

I would suggest Hard Percussion cost half what it does. Scraping, Chopping and Piercing one third of there current costs and you drop Soft Percussion.

Costs have not been re-done yet since not all the new prehistoric techs are put in and things could still move around.

Slash and Burn needs to move a bit to where you have the tools for slashing. I would suggest Hafting which should probably be called something like Composite Tools to reflect the fact that they are tools made from stone, wood and some binding agent (string, tar, resin or rawhide).

I was not sure since I did not know if you had like a "Slashing" tech. What are the techs called for the binding? You still have not given a straight answer.

Portable Shelter was a game mechanic in RoH to allow the building of the Nomad Unit. If we are going to use it in C2C then it needs to be after Simple Woodworking or Composite Tools. We then have two of "our" Nomad units. I think Portable Shelter should be a requirement for Stone Shelters.

So what would the requirments be exactly? Also what are the requirements for Composite Tools?

We need a new colour back ground for nomad unit promotions so only they can get them.

So far Blue (General), Purple (Special), Red (General), Brown (Animal), Green (Heroic) and Gold/Gray (Events) have been used. Which would you like; White, Black, Orange, Teal or Magenta?

On units: - basically hominids and great apes start with three units "bash with something", "poke at with something" and "throw stuff at". "Throw stuff at" is the C2C stone thrower. At Hard Percussion a new unit "Bash with sharp stone" or earliest Axeman (hits with stone axe head in both hands) becomes available. With Simple Wood Woodworking "Bash with branch shaped for purpose" or Clubman and "Poke at with long branch" or Early Spearman (wood) come along. With Heat Treatment you get Early Spearman (hardened wood).

Do we have graphics for that? Because the Stone Axeman has a handle so it would be at Axe Making. The Clubman I imagined is just wielding a stick/branch. Again the Stone Spearman actually has stone on it so I am not sure how that found fit into the other without custom graphics.

With Hafting you should get both Spearman (stone), Axeman (stone) and Clubman (stone mace). However you still have the two tech axe making and spear making so perhaps they should stay but be a bit cheaper. Say Hafting at 3/4 cost and Spear/Axe Making being half cost.

Is there a stone maceman graphic?

BtW the new tech tree has made it impossible to get all three religions (Druid, Shaman and Tengri) and get to Sedentary Lifestyle first.

That's good to know.
 
Since we're considering the VERY early techs... Perhaps we should invest some consideration into early pseudo-religions that eventually led into the Faiths we recognize.

The idea would be to have a very early religious tech... perhaps we call it "Reverence" to reflect that finally mankind is considering its place in the world and as a group, someone has officially proposed the concept of a deific source.

At Reverence, the civilization chooses from a list of early religious ideals reflective of the earliest faiths, Sun Worship, Moon Worship, Star Worship, Earth Worship, Sky Worship, Fire Worship, Dream Worship and Sexuality Worship (a VERY dominant outlook translated to us through the grand reverence shown to phallic and womb symbologies of early peoples).

Conceptually, you only get one selection, and the selection made improves one aspect of yield gathering or its application that lasts until the first permanent habitation is established.

This, again, is just an idea.
 
I was not sure since I did not know if you had like a "Slashing" tech. What are the techs called for the binding? You still have not given a straight answer.

So what would the requirments be exactly? Also what are the requirements for Composite Tools?

I can't as I am still working it out fully. That is why I suggested naming Hafting to Composite Tools. It would require Simple Wood Working and either (Bone Working or Flint Knapping). Fine Edge Tools could require it.

So far Blue (General), Purple (Special), Red (General), Brown (Animal), Green (Heroic) and Gold/Gray (Events) have been used. Which would you like; White, Black, Orange, Teal or Magenta?

I would need to see an example.:mischief:

Do we have graphics for that? Because the Stone Axeman has a handle so it would be at Axe Making. The Clubman I imagined is just wielding a stick/branch. Again the Stone Spearman actually has stone on it so I am not sure how that found fit into the other without custom graphics.


Is there a stone maceman graphic?

Has not stopped us before:mischief:. I think there is an Egyptian unit that uses a stone mace.


Since we're considering the VERY early techs... Perhaps we should invest some consideration into early pseudo-religions that eventually led into the Faiths we recognize.

The idea would be to have a very early religious tech... perhaps we call it "Reverence" to reflect that finally mankind is considering its place in the world and as a group, someone has officially proposed the concept of a deific source.

At Reverence, the civilization chooses from a list of early religious ideals reflective of the earliest faiths, Sun Worship, Moon Worship, Star Worship, Earth Worship, Sky Worship, Fire Worship, Dream Worship and Sexuality Worship (a VERY dominant outlook translated to us through the grand reverence shown to phallic and womb symbologies of early peoples).

Conceptually, you only get one selection, and the selection made improves one aspect of yield gathering or its application that lasts until the first permanent habitation is established.

This, again, is just an idea.

Oh yes that is under consideration ;) Although I was going to start something along the lines Superstition --> Animism --> Totenism (sp?). Superstition and Burials --> Ancestors (worship or intercede with the gods for you etc.). It gets complex.
 
1. Ok so "Hafing" would be replaced by "Composite Tools", got it.

2. They would look something like this ....


3. Actually it has. There are a bunch of units I would like to add but I don't have graphics for them. (Ex. Megatherium Rider, War Wagon, Petard, Gyrocopter, etc).

4. I have no problem with adding spiritual techs just make sure we consider the ones we already have such as Ancestor Worship, Ceremonial Burial, Shamanism, etc.
 
@Dancing Hoskuld

So how about something like this ...

Binding = Weaving AND Skinning

Composite Tools = Simple Wood Working AND Bone Working AND Binding

Hunting = Cooking AND Trapping

Portable Shelter = Hunting AND Stone Building AND Composite Tools

Earth Oven = Fire Making AND Cooking
Note: Earth Oven would be where the Imu would get moved to.

Pottery = Mining AND Earth Oven
 
May I throw in the suggestion of halving or reducing by 25% all research costs for Prehistoric Era while you guys are on and fiddling with them anyway?
This is for/from Balancing the new speeds as well as considering the amount of new techs being added.
As it is it already took around 1000 turns to get out of Prehistoric. With more techs it'll take longer yet. At least me, maybe more, people consider research and time to take a little too long in Prehistoric and Ancient while after the Classic Era research tends to go too fast again.
So by decreasing the research times a little or a bit for Prehistory, while you're all at mixing it around anyway, it enables balancers like ls612 to increase research across the board (so in effect Prehistory won't go faster) so the later Eras take longer to research your way through without making Prehistory take 2k turns.

As for Ancient Era it, to me, looks like that will be alright without changes; considering a few more research buildings early on will make research speed up; and then slowed down by increasing research times.

Cheers
 
Alright. Now I'm sure you'll think of everything when you end up doing that but I feel I want to make sure you do consider two things:
After Writing/Currency/Alphabet/Literature/Aristocracy/Monarchy research rates can get close to quadrupling rather fast and more so when starting to expand more, if able.
Some techs give more than others so they are not created equal. Such techs that are more of a transition, or don't give as much, might be good to keep lower in cost than other.

I'll post this part elsewhere (Discussions/Ideas) too: Is there a way to have an option that reduces your overall science output when you have a larger empire, perhaps coupled with Limited Cities option?
After all when you have a large empire not everyone is communicating perfectly so tehre could be more than several brilliant people working on the same thing, which would reduce the overall science rate.

Cheers
 
@Dancing Hoskuld

So how about something like this ...

Binding = Weaving AND Skinning

Composite Tools = Simple Wood Working AND Bone Working AND Binding

Hunting = Cooking AND Trapping

Portable Shelter = Hunting AND Stone Building AND Composite Tools

Earth Oven = Fire Making AND Cooking
Note: Earth Oven would be where the Imu would get moved to.

Pottery = Mining AND Earth Oven

Sound good.

@BlueGenie

When they have settled down I will do what I did before and basiclly assign each column more or less a cost. Then have it gradually match the price in the unaltered part of the tree. In this case the Classical Era (since things in both the Prehistoric and Ancient Eras got moved).

Except some should be a natural flow on from an earlier tech and should be quicker. Not all but some like Piercing, Chopping and Scraping. On which Felt Making according to the stories I have seen, Sumerian and Christian, just happen. It probably should be a prerequisite for paper making but belongs earlyish in the tree.
 
1. Ok I will go send SO the details for those then.

2. Is this what you mean?

2. That is high tech compared to the stores I mean. For instance the Christian one has felt socks appearing on the feet of pilgrims/saints when they walked a long way with wool and grass stuffed in their shoes. ;)
 
There's an easy way to make techs faster to research via a natural flow without reducing the cost too much; set one AND prerequisite and a few OR requisites where you always need the AND but with certain OR it'd go faster to research.
Like, for instance, Chopping. Has to have Soft Hammer Percussion so that would be the AND. Both Scraping and Piercing could be set as OR requisites.
That would make Chopping faster to research when one of the other is known already, and faster yet when both the others are known already.
This is as per the Tech Diffusion mechanism/global define file in XML stating that any OR tech known boosts research rate when researching a tech, and any subsequent OR also know boosts it more.
*chuckle* Which would make Vokarya scratch his head wondering about any OR redundancy requisites in the tech tree. *grin*

Cheers
 
*chuckle* Which would make Vokarya scratch his head wondering about any OR redundancy requisites in the tech tree. *grin*

Cheers

OR prerequisites are fairly easy to watch; it's just a matter of tracking them back to their last common ancestor and seeing if there's overlap with other prerequisites. My biggest problem right now is keeping up with all the changes and my current level system for checking techs. I will have to re-calibrate all the numbers for the Classical Era and up once Prehistoric settles out.

I just posted to the SVN thread that Pottery and Mining are currently forming a closed loop. Both require the other, and you would never be able to research either of them.
 
*grin* In this case the OR, even if redundant, would serve the purpose of making some technologies faster to research when you have some OR dependencies. In my example all three of Chopping, Piercing, and Scraping have Soft Hammer Percussion as prerequisite so to research any and all of them the others aren't needed to have BUT with an OR dependency stuck on it the research rate will increase for each of the OR you have.
So they'd not be needed per se, but would be there for a reason anyway, making it easier to tech if other areas are known.

Cheers
 
*grin* In this case the OR, even if redundant, would serve the purpose of making some technologies faster to research when you have some OR dependencies. In my example all three of Chopping, Piercing, and Scraping have Soft Hammer Percussion as prerequisite so to research any and all of them the others aren't needed to have BUT with an OR dependency stuck on it the research rate will increase for each of the OR you have.
So they'd not be needed per se, but would be there for a reason anyway, making it easier to tech if other areas are known.

Cheers

I definitely agree. I really like OR prerequisites. The only time it's actually redundant is if an AND prerequisite is required for every OR prerequisite, but that means the problem is the AND prerequisite.
 
Something else I just noticed, and I don't know why I missed it before, but Polytheism has a redundant Sacrifice Cult requirement. The current requirements are Dualism + Masonry + Sacrifice Cult, but Sacrifice Cult is also listed as a Dualism prerequisite.

So, I suggest this:

Polytheism
Required Techs: Dualism AND Masonry
 
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