A comprehensive UU guide (the updated thread)

The only real medieval counter against Samurais is Knight (especially with Shock promo), which ignores First Strikes, so be warned and advised to add some Pikes or Elephants to your stack.

you forget about the Spanish Conquistador, they are the real counter to the Japanese Samurai, they naturally get +50% against Melee units and have 2 first strikes and are immune to first strikes and get defensive bonuses.

If your playing Spain and have the Guilds tech and horses & Iron hooked up, you should have no fear for the Japanese Samurai.
 
you forget about the Spanish Conquistador

Well, he said Knights and persumbably that included all Knight based UUs including Camel Archers. But you are right, Conquistador's are especially good at it. While I don't think Crossbowmen are a match for Samurai, I think the Cho-Ko-Nu is. The extra first strike means parity on that front and the collateral damage means you can hole up in cities or attack in the field, giving you much more flexibility.

Darrell
 
Well, he said Knights and persumbably that included all Knight based UUs including Camel Archers. But you are right, Conquistador's are especially good at it. While I don't think Crossbowmen are a match for Samurai, I think the Cho-Ko-Nu is. The extra first strike means parity on that front and the collateral damage means you can hole up in cities or attack in the field, giving you much more flexibility.

Darrell
That's true. The Cho Ko Nu-s are indeed a bit of a problem. Not when attacking a city protected by Cho Ku Nus, it's not a big deal, because CR promos work just as fine against them.

But they may cause trouble by sneak attacking your stack while marching from city to city. Better have a mounted unit for protection, Knight is best. An Elephant would do, too.

On the other hand, it's not like a unique to Samurais problem. If you fight with regular Macemen, the problem is a lot worse.
 
The first strike info should also be mentioned with cho-ko-nu's. The fact that both chinese leaders are protective means they are getting drill I and cg I, along with collateral damage and 2 first strikes inherent to the cho-ko-nu unit. Pretty scary.


Also, good mentioning of the Knights as a counter. I went first strike-crazy with promotions, but then when they ran into units that can resist first strikes, it wasnt pretty. As with most promotions, balance is key.

But for people who are doubting the effects of first strikes, play a game and make a point to promote units with Drill I, II, and III. The results for me were profound...never before did I have so many units win battles without taking any damage.
 
The problem with drill is that it becomes very weak if you do not have tech parity. This becomes a real problem if you just finish off a civ, have units stretched thin, and another civ declares war on you with more advanced units while you've been warring. Your drill crossbows won't counter muskets.
 
The problem with drill is that it becomes very weak if you do not have tech parity. This becomes a real problem if you just finish off a civ, have units stretched thin, and another civ declares war on you with more advanced units while you've been warring. Your drill crossbows won't counter muskets.

This would be a problem with any promotion.
 
I think Drill relies a lot on luck to be effective. If you keep hitting the enemy unit with your extra attacks, it might change the course of the battle. Otherwise, it would do almost nothing. Think of it as a few extra attempts at the slot machine. You may hit the jackpot with them or you may not get anything. IMO, what Andrei V has shown is, statistically, this would translate to significantly more victories for you.

Perhaps how strong your unit is relative to the enemy's might affect the odds of it scoring hits. I'm not the expert at that kind of thing. But luck is certainly a significant factor.
 
I'd say Drill shifts the luck in your favor. If you think of it as a few attempts at the slot machine, think of them as they were for free. You don't bid any money, but still have a chance to hit the jackpot.

If you bid many-many times, you'd win more money than lose.

The luck of First Strikes is indeed sort of a mystery, I believe because it creates certain non-linear element when computing the odds of winning the battle and things like this. The game does take into account First Strikes when computing the odds, but I believe it's quite inaccurate.

When I switch from Tokugawa to another leader, I frequently have to adjust my battle tactics. For example, I'd never hesitate to attack with a level 6+ Samurai at 80% odds. But I'd think twice before attacking with a Maceman. I have a strong feeling that the regular Macemen die a lot more frequently, and losing a level 6 unit is a big loss. It's not like Samurais do not die at 80%, but their chance of dying is small enough.

This is another little advantage - attacking at lower odds brings more XP on average, and faster promotions.
Perhaps how strong your unit is relative to the enemy's might affect the odds of it scoring hits.
That's true. Stronger unit not only inflicts more damage, but has better odds at winning the next round. As far as I remember, the odds are computed as a/(a+b) and b/(a+b), where a and b are adjusted strengths of the units.

What a First Strike does is to create some more rounds for free, without gambling with the odds.
 
Every combat round relies on luck, Drill just gives a few extra rounds :)

There's a good combat mechanics article in the war academy, but to summarize here:

Assuming an even battle between two units, both start with 100HP, do 20 points of damage when they win a combat round, and have 50% chance of winning a combat round. That means that one has to win 5 out of 9 rounds. That's still 50% odds to win the combat even if 5 out of 9 looks better than that :)

To gain better odds in winning the combat you can try to affect the variables: win with fewer combat rounds required, have more combat rounds out of which you need to win, and have higher chance to win each combat round.

Having higher effective strength than the opposing unit does many things: you do more damage per round, opponent does less damage per round, you have higher chance to win each round. Having just 0.1 points higher effective strength results in opponent doing only 19 points of damage, which is quite significant: opponent needs to win 6 combat rounds instead of 5 while you still need only 5, therefore you need 5 out of 10 instead of 5 out of 9. You also have a slight advantage on each round (C1 warrior vs green warrior is about 52.4% chance on each combat round).

First strikes don't effect the damage done per round, nor the chance to win a combat round. They just add combat rounds out of which you need the same number to win. Having one first strike with equal strength means 5 out of 10 rounds - almost as good as having marginal strength advantage (from C1).

Drill is quite little used promotion because the first level grants only a first strike chance. Second grants first strike, and the going gets better with third and fourth, for a grand total of 3-6 first strikes. Of course for those you could've taken combat 4, which would be strong in itself. Except of course if you're protective and are promoting archery unit and so have that Drill1 to start with.. Comparison would be 3-5 first strikes (Drill4 compared to Drill1) vs. +30% base strength (C3).

The next step in affecting combat rounds required using brute strength is at roughly 40% strength advantage when the opponent needs not 6 but 7 combat rounds to win. It's a slaughter at that point, as we're talking about 60% odds per round. At 60% strength advantage you finally do 25HP per hit and thus need only 4 rounds to kill the sucker.

As you can see, the first big step is gaining the upper hand, however minimal. After that, first strikes shine. Or the other way to look at it: if you have bad odds to begin with, first strikes even them out.

The major point here is that there are a couple of steps in the combat odds. Affecting the chance to win a round in a big way is quite hard, requiring BIG strength advantage. But the unit holding even the smallest strength advantage immediatelly has an advantage in damage done per round and therefore rounds needed to win the combat. Note: rounds needed to win combat. The biggest advantage was actually exactly the same as that provided by first strike :)

Now there was this one more way to affect the combat odds: make sure your opponent is not in full health.. This grants multiple advantages, with the obvious one being that you only need to whack him a few times to take out the remaining breath, so again you need fewer combat rounds to win (this seems to be the theme). The other is that the effective strength of the unit is the average current and full health multiplied by normal strength. This further skews the odds in your favour. A full health longbow is tough, but take him down just a notch (from 6 to 5.4 strength) and the effect is huge.

Obviously first strikes are best when you already hold the upper hand (longbows defending city commonly have higher effective strength than the attacker, which is why cats/trebs are used - to soften the defense stack with collateral damage) as then you start with combat rounds that you have good chance to win while having no chance at all to take damage on.


The choice of promotion is almost always a hard one. Sometimes it's not very hard - giving garrison promotions to longbows that are not expected to ever leave a city is quite sound. As are raider proms for maces who should never attack or defend except when reaching a city (other units defend the stack and pick the opposing units on the fields). But outside the specific city garrison / city raider unit specializations, it's not that clear.

Straight combat prom is of course always an option. It's good in that it's very clear on what it does: +10% strength. It gets applied to the unit's base strength in all cases, with no situational factors. Any other strength-modifying proms are counted against your opponent, therefor their effetiveness depends on the base strength of your opponent. If the base strength of your opponent is low (compared to yours), and the opposing unit relies on high bonuses, a straight combat prom may be more effective than a counter prom. This is very rare though, as counter proms (which includes garrison and raider, but mostly means shock, cover, formation, pinch, as well as the anti-siege and anti-armor the names of which escape me now) are 25% while combat is 10% - you basically need 2.5 times the strength of the opposing unit for combat prom to be better (knight vs spear eg - against pike shock is better for the knight).

So, as the straight combat prom is unlikely to be as good as the counter prom, why take it? Because it works against all unit types.. Can I be sure this unit will only face some specific type of unit? Combat works against all opponents. Attack archery unit now, melee unit the next time - combat works in both cases while shock would be wasted in first, cover in the second. Counters work best when defending, as the defending unit is chosen against the attacking unit (best defender against the specific attacker is the one to fight), which deters the opponent from using eg. mounted units while you have formation pike in the stack, and melee units when you have shock crossbow in the stack. Which of course brings us back to cats which do collateral damage..

(for the record: I find it sad that the only way to deal with any stack is to suicide collateral damage on it. No tactics, no strategies, just massed cats used expendably)

Drill, like Combat, is not really that situational. It effects all combats regardless of the opponent. With the exception of first strike immunity, but considering that those units are already counters to the first striking units, being forced into that battle would be the same as being forced into attacking axe with a sword.. It happens at times - things are bad and you need to take emergency measures.

The problem I see with Drill is that it has a strong curve: Drill1 is not very useful (Drill2 OTOH is), Drill4 is immense compared to "just" Drill3. Therefore, commiting a unit to Drill promotion lines is a long term plan where you expect to get up to Drill4. However, similar to Combat proms, they unlock the counter proms which may be useful: shock crossbows are nice too.

The advantage is of course that the first strike rounds are fought first, and you can't take damage on those rounds. But for that advantage to be meaningful, you again need strength advantage over the opponent or MANY first strikes.. Otherwise it's just the same old luck.
 
Wow, this is turning into a comprehensive promotions guide as well ;)

Elandal said:
First strikes don't effect the damage done per round, nor the chance to win a combat round. They just add combat rounds out of which you need the same number to win.

Exactly, which is why they rely on luck to work. You roll the die each time you fight and hope that your first strikes hit.

Indeed, they are free attempts at the slot machine if we're talking about Samurai. For units without the natural ability, though, you pay the price by having to choose the promotion over something else.
 
But you roll the die and hope for the best in any case.. It's all up to the RNG gods anyway. Add combat prom and you get higher chance to win a combat round. It doesn't give you a won round, just a higher chance to win each round. First strikes give you free rounds, which may give the same total chance to win (although I'm not going to fire up excel to work out the chances now). Both only enhance your chance to win, no guarantees either way.

EDIT:
Promotions guide sounds quite useful as well :)
 
But you roll the die and hope for the best in any case.. It's all up to the RNG gods anyway. Add combat prom and you get higher chance to win a combat round. It doesn't give you a won round, just a higher chance to win each round. First strikes give you free rounds, which may give the same total chance to win (although I'm not going to fire up excel to work out the chances now). Both only enhance your chance to win, no guarantees either way.

I understand what you mean. It just seems to me that Drill relies on luck even more. At least Combat promotions increase the odds for every round. If your unit only has 40% odds of winning when unpromoted, you'd be stuck with it for every extra round you get from first strikes. Drill might translate to more victories in the long run, but for each battle you'd be hoping more than you would in the case of Combat promotions.
 
I don't think that's really the case.

The basic mechanic is still: combat rounds, chance to win and cause damage each round. Chance to win and damage caused is defined by modified strength ratio.

As I stated above, if you can rely on getting a slight strength advantage using combat (or counter) promotions, they're definitelly the best thing to do, as the difference between equal strengths and marginally higher strength lowers the damage caused by the opposing unit below a treshold, requiring the oppsing unit to score one more hit before your HP drops to zero.

First strike is the exact opposite: you get an extra chance to cause damage. Both result in you needing to win the exact same number of combat rounds, and actually out of exact same number of combat rounds (if your opponent needs 6 hits to kill and you need 5, then you need to win 5 out of 10 - same as if both needed 5 hits to kill and you had a first strike).

The actual odds of winning the combat round go from 50% to only 52.4% with that 10% strength advantage, so not that huge.

If I got to choose between having that 10% strength advantage or 1 first strike (which is more than Drill1 gives - that's a CHANCE for a first strike), which would I take? The strength advantage. It's that 2.4 percentage points better than first strike :)

So, when to choose Drill? The first issue is of course, which units can get it in the first place...

Melee can't, so they'll go for the usual (CR or counters).

Of the siege units, cats I don't expect to survive for four proms anyway so CR or Barrage, maybe Accuracy. Trebs and cannons might make it to four proms, but I'd still go for raider line first (maybe with some barrage cannons), possibly followed by Barrage. Machine guns are oddballs, and there Drill might be best choice (why mgs are siege units I don't know - as they can't attack at all, I feel they should get the Protective trait free proms).

Of archery units, archer and longbow are almost exclusively used for city defense, so garrison line looks the best choice. However, if you can get a couple of drill proms, they start resisting collateral damage - which causes trouble for the suicide cats strategy :) You still need high garrison top-defender (that isn't taking the collateral damage because he's the direct opponent), but it might cause a shift from massed cats to massed swords... Trebs break the game here though.
Crossbows are another game. They're more in the field, less in the cities, so Drill line looks better. Maybe Drill, Shock, the continue Drill as far as you can.
An interesting point is of course that Drill allows anti-siege, which might make it useful. A theory that should be tested..
All archery units have first strikes natively to begin with in any case.

In the above cases, without Protective trait garrison and counter proms are likely to be better choice, but with Protective Drill line is more open.

Then there are the tanks. I believe general consensus with tanks is the division to raider and drill tanks, with the first ones doing the heavy lifting, the second ones doing mopup.

Overall, Drill should be considered with Protective leaders and in case of archery UUs that may have advatages over their normal counterparts: skirmisher and chokunu. This is which ties the Drill issues back to the UU guide :)
 
I understand what you mean. It just seems to me that Drill relies on luck even more.
That only applies to Drill I and III, which give First Strike chances. It's like you roll a dice to decide whether you have a First Strike or not.

But Drill II and IV give solid First Strikes, not dice rolls.
 
Drill II and IV give solid First Strikes, not dice rolls.

But there's still no guarantee that you'd score more hits, right?

Anyway, I've added the entry on Redcoat. You guys might have something to add, since I pretty much condensed things. Next up is the Chukonu. I'll definitely talk about first strikes in that entry.
 
But there's still no guarantee that you'd score more hits, right?
Neither there is a guarantee with an increase in bare strength. It's the same dice. The luck favors stronger unit, but it's still luck.

I think if Drill promotions always gave solid First Strikes, they'd be a way overpowered compared to Combat promotions. That's perhaps to balance things out some of them give only chances.
 
But you roll the die and hope for the best in any case

Thats the way Im seeing it too. People favor combat and cr promotions because their upgrades are more tangible and the odds are increased in your favor. But at the same time Ive seen a unit with lots of first strikes get better odds even though he has a lesser power rating. So either way your % odds are increased.
 
Let me put it this way.

If your unit is significantly weaker than its rivals, you always want a strength promotion, City Raider, Shock, Cover, Pinch, whatever. Some more First Strikes taken instead would barely increase your unit's chances of surviving an average combat, like from 20 to 25%.

Once you reach strength parity, things change a little. At 50% of survival a First Strike may be even more benefiting than a Strength promotion, although it's hard to say for sure. And definitely you want a solid First Strike, not a First Strike chance from Drill I, which works only half of the time.

However once you reach strength advantage, the things change all in favor of first strikes. An additional strength promotion may increase your chances from like 96 to 98%, and reduce an average damage from like 45 to 42. An additional First Strike would reduce the average damage from like 45 to 15. This is, of course, huge, compared to bare strength promotions. Even a First Strike chance is actually preferred in most cases.
 
Added the entry on Chukonus. This one was quite difficult to write. The next one is on the Quechua.

I need ideas on the Cossack and the Panzer. Nobody has said anything about them yet.
 
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