Splitting up the Bloobs.

Urdnot_Scott

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In my short time here I've noticed that you guys do love to complain, that's not a criticism by the way, who doesn't? This complaining is less whining and more pointing out the flaws in a great game, and it works too (we got Zulu, didn't we?)

Anyway, I've noticed one of the biggest complaints is Bloobs and eurocentrism. We have 4 civs that did a huge amount of work in Greece, after all.

So, rather than merely moan about kamehama and his bloob, we should suggest how it SHOULD be handled, allow me to start.

India is a disaster in every way, so we can start here, lets split it into 2 to start, but more can be done:

The Mughal Empire
Spoiler :
Leader: Akbar the Great
Capital: Agra
UA: Alamgirs Jizya - Annexing a city that followed a different religion to yours yields +1 gold for every 2 followers in that city. +1 Tourism from citadels, and forts provide +1 culture when worked.
UB: Maktab (courthouse replacement) - Not only pacifies Annexed cities as usual, but also provides +3 faith and a 15% increase in religious pressure from that city, this pressure only applies to your own majority religion, not the majority religion of the city it is based in. Once your empires majority religion is the majority in this city, it produces an extra 1 faith, and 1 culture. It also only has 1 maintenance compared to the bank-breaking 3 of a regular courthouse, if that seems overpowered remember it can only be built in annexed cities, so it needs to be slightly stronger than buildings one can build in ones own cities.
UU: Jaigarh Cannon. (Cannon replacement) -
Cost: 200 :c5production:
Strength: 14 :c5strength:
Ranged Strength: 22 :c5rangedstrength:
Range: 2
Moves: 2 :c5moves:
Naturally slightly stronger and more expensive than the regular cannon, however, the Jaigarh gains +1 range when inside a fort, +1 range and +2 ranged strength when inside a citadel, costs 25% of its normal maintenance when inside either. (Cities with a castle count as a fort)

Gameplay Style: I like this one since the Maktab and Jizya work together, the Maktab will drive down 'enemy' followers, depriving you of that extra gold, so the Mughals will always be forced to be out bullying other religions, which should be easier in the late game thanks to the tough cavalry replacement that doesnt require horses, pump them out and go around attacking the other religions!




The Maratha Confederacy
Spoiler :
Leader: Chatrapatti Shahu
Capital: Pune
UA: Shiva Sutra - Double movement points in jungle, Gain XP, culture and gold when retaking a city, double XP for units fighting in home territory.
UU: Pal (Privateer) -
Cost: 125 :c5production:
Strength: 25:c5strength:
Moves: 6:c5moves:
Cheaper to produce than the privateer, and comes without the coastal raider promotion, however gains +20% strength for every adjacent foe.
UB: Ganpats (Rifleman) -
Cost: 200 :c5production:
Strength: 35:c5strength:
Moves: 2:c5moves:
Same as rifleman however gain a +2% bonus to XP generation for every social policy adopted and start with the Drill I promotion. Ganpats increase a cities garrison strength by 4 when stationed inside, and increase happiness by 1.

Gameplay Style: Yeah, its another warmonger civ, with 2 UUs.. or is it? I've worked here to try and keep this civ milliatary based, but also to keep it on the defensive more than anything, as in real life. The UA gives bonuses for being invaded, while the Pal is good for fighting against forces larger than their own, and the Ganpat is an elite unit however the crippling cost will make you rethink taking them out to invade your neighbours, while giving you bonuses when stationed in your cities.


I could go on with the Maurya or whatever, but really, I'd keep it here personally, as otherwise you start to sacrifice marketablility and gameplay for historical accuracy.

This isnt really to discuss wether you're pro-bloob or not, as we could argue that for hours and has been done to death, just to offer alternatives. (feel free to challenge my India rework too, I'm not perfect... mostly)
 
Here are a couple ideas I've had about splitting up Greece.

Athenian Empire
Capital: Athens
Leader: Pericles
UA: Delian League: City-State :c5influence: Influence degrades at half and recovers at twice the normal rate.
UU: Peltast: Replaces Scout. 5 strength :c5strength:. Withdraw before melee.
UB: Odeon: Replaces Amphitheater. 2 Artist Specialist slot

Spartan Empire
Capital: Sparta
Leader: Leonidas
UA: Military Raised: Units cost 10% less to build and start with 15 experience.
UU: Hoplite: Replaces Spearman. 13 strength :c5strength:. Bonus against mounted units.
UB: Agoge: Replaces Barracks. +30 experience for all units built in this city.

Macedonian Empire
Capital: Pella
Leader: Alexander
UA: Hellenistic Period: Upon conquering a city, gain 10% more yeilds from trade routes :c5trade: for 10 turns. Number of turns stack with each city captured.*
UU: Companion Cavalry: Replaces Horseman. 5 movement :c5moves:. Combat likely to produce Great General
UB: Acropolis: Replaces Market. 1 Artist Specialist and 1 Merchant Specialist .


* So, in other words, if you conquer a city you get a bonus for ten turns. Two turns pass and you conquer another city, then you have the bonus for a total of 18 turns.
 
Here are the Celtics. There are well over a hundred Celtic tribes so I'm only gonna do four from Britannia.

Brigantes
Leader: Cartimandua
Capital: Isurium Brigantum
UA: Rise to Power - All units gain 10% bonus when fighting in friendly territory; capture cities 1/4 faster
UU: Brigantes Warrior - replaces Swordsman; can move 1 extra tile; bonus against enemy units in fortified mode
UB: Brigantes Hut - replaces Shrine; +2 faith for every enemy unit killed in friendly territory

Catuvellauni
Leader: Caratacus
Capital: Verulamium
UA: Resistance for One - All units move 2 extra tiles; bonus vs enemy units outside of friendly territories
UU: Catuvellauni Warrior - replaces Swordsman; +1 extra sight; faster and cheaper than the base unit
UU: Catuvellauni Scout - replaces Scout; +1 extra movement; defense bonus in forest and jungle terrains; earns the Guerrilla* promotion

Iceni
Leader: Boudica
Capital: Venta Icenorum
UA: Druidic Lore - +1 faith per city with an adjacent unimproved forest tile; bonus increases to +2 faith in cities with 3 or more adjacent unimproved forest tiles
UU: Iceni Warrior - replaces Swordsman; faster and cheaper than the base unit; can attack and move in the same turn
UU: Iceni Chariot - replaces Chariot Archer; can range and melee attack; +1 extra movement; +15% strength vs units with higher health points

Trinovantes
Leader: Cunobelinus
Capital: Camulodunum
UA: Numismatic - +2 gold for every enemy units killed; +5 gold for every higher tech enemy unit killed
UU: Trinovantes Warrior - replaces Swordsman; can attack twice in a single turn; can move after attacking
UU: Trinovantes Cavalry - replaces Horseman; bonus vs Spearman; +15% defense against cities; earns the Charge** promotion

*Guerrilla promotion gives bonus to attacking enemy units on any terrain except grassland and plains
**Charge promotion does not require Shock or Drill II

I know these are vague and dull but hey. Who would ever know these facts? We can only guess from Tacitus's and Julius Caesar's writings.
 
Here are a couple ideas I've had about splitting up Greece.

Athenian Empire
Capital: Athens
Leader: Pericles
UA: Delian League: City-State :c5influence: Influence degrades at half and recovers at twice the normal rate.
UU: Peltast: Replaces Scout. 5 strength :c5strength:. Withdraw before melee.
UB: Odeon: Replaces Amphitheater. 2 Artist Specialist slot

Spartan Empire
Capital: Sparta
Leader: Leonidas
UA: Military Raised: Units cost 10% less to build and start with 15 experience.
UU: Hoplite: Replaces Spearman. 13 strength :c5strength:.
UB: Agoge: Replaces Barracks. +30 experience for all units built in this city.

Macedonian Empire
Capital: Pella
Leader: Alexander
UA: Hellenistic Period: Upon conquering a city, gain 10% more yeilds from trade routes :c5trade: for 10 turns. Number of turns stack with each city captured.*
UU: Companion Cavalry: Replaces Horseman. 5 movement :c5moves:. Combat likely to produce Great General
UB: Acropolis: Replaces Market. 1 Artist Specialist and 1 Merchant Specialist .


* So, in other words, if you conquer a city you get a bonus for ten turns. Two turns pass and you conquer another city, then you have the bonus for a total of 18 turns.

These are cool, Greece is certainly one that could do with being split up and I like the 3 you chose. Athens is cool, though I'm not sure I agree with the peltast being a scout. I would personally have gone with an archer replacement that can move after attacking, and has +1 movement. which would be useful and make sense, since the job of peltasts was to harass the enemy but not stay and fight. A lower combat strength if attacked and a lower overall ranged strength might help balance the unit, or maybe just one of these would be enough to keep them balanced, I dunno, its hard to check without using them eh! :lol: Other than that, a nice civ, even if it does neglect the naval tradition that made Athens famous :L Whatever, you can't represent everything, it was either the culture, or the navy, I really can't decide which is more important.

Sparta is nice, but such an iconic civ could surely have a more interesting UU than just a flat damage boost Hoplite? A 10% combat bonus for every adjacent enemy unit would be pretty awesome, powerful, doesn't seem too OP, since at high levels like with 5 or 6 units, you'd have to worry about the fact you have 5 or 6 units surrounding you, a 60% bonus wouldn't help you take all of them down single handed, and it relates nicely to the whole 300 thing that makes Sparta so famous. Other than that, again, pretty solid, though 45 XP on creation could be OP, can't see without testing of course.

Makedonia (Macedonia, if you aren't pretentious like me...) is all round solid, firaxis obviously having laid down the leader and a UU, but the UA is pretty awesome, and makes sense. Acropolis is coool, though maybe another UU could work for a civ that has such a war focused UA (and history). Some kind of Phalanxman or something could work

All in all, I like it, with a few very minor changes I'd love these civs to be introduced.

Edit: Oh, I almost forgot, one minor problem... uh... city lists? ahahah theoretically, Athens and Sparta couldn't found more than 1 city... maybe a Venice type approach with these guys then? In which case, I'd welcome some OP UUs/UAs.
 
Here are the Celtics. There are well over a hundred Celtic tribes so I'm only gonna do four from Britannia.

Brigantes
Leader: Cartimandua
Capital: Isurium Brigantum
UA: Rise to Power - All units gain 10% bonus when fighting in friendly territory; capture cities 1/4 faster
UU: Brigantes Warrior - replaces Swordsman; can move 1 extra tile; bonus against enemy units in fortified mode
UB: Brigantes Hut - replaces Shrine; +2 faith for every enemy unit killed in friendly territory

Catuvellauni
Leader: Caratacus
Capital: Verulamium
UA: Resistance for One - All units move 2 extra tiles; bonus vs enemy units outside of friendly territories
UU: Catuvellauni Warrior - replaces Swordsman; +1 extra sight; faster and cheaper than the base unit
UU: Catuvellauni Scout - replaces Scout; +1 extra movement; defense bonus in forest and jungle terrains; earns the Guerrilla* promotion

Iceni
Leader: Boudica
Capital: Venta Icenorum
UA: Druidic Lore - +1 faith per city with an adjacent unimproved forest tile; bonus increases to +2 faith in cities with 3 or more adjacent unimproved forest tiles
UU: Iceni Warrior - replaces Swordsman; faster and cheaper than the base unit; can attack and move in the same turn
UU: Iceni Chariot - replaces Chariot Archer; can range and melee attack; +1 extra movement; +15% strength vs units with higher health points

Trinovantes
Leader: Cunobelinus
Capital: Camulodunum
UA: Numismatic - +2 gold for every enemy units killed; +5 gold for every higher tech enemy unit killed
UU: Trinovantes Warrior - replaces Swordsman; can attack twice in a single turn; can move after attacking
UU: Trinovantes Cavalry - replaces Horseman; bonus vs Spearman; +15% defense against cities; earns the Charge** promotion

*Guerrilla promotion gives bonus to attacking enemy units on any terrain except grassland and plains
**Charge promotion does not require Shock or Drill II

I know these are vague and dull but hey. Who would ever know these facts? We can only guess from Tacitus's and Julius Caesar's writings.

I really like some of the ideas here, but, overall, its the names that let me down. It highlights a huge problem here, that we really don't know enough about these guys to get a Civ going, there would be huuge problems for City lists, UU names, UB names etc etc etc. Plus, these tribes themselves, as they are, really aren't well known or iconic enough to cut it for me, which is annoying because the ideas for UUs and stuff are all awesome, wish they could be applied to some... 'better' seems like a harsh word to use...

But, yeah, better Civs. :lol:

Damn, Tacitus really should have been more descriptive, though I'm not sure he could have foreseen this scenario...
 
These are cool, Greece is certainly one that could do with being split up and I like the 3 you chose. Athens is cool, though I'm not sure I agree with the peltast being a scout. I would personally have gone with an archer replacement that can move after attacking, and has +1 movement. which would be useful and make sense, since the job of peltasts was to harass the enemy but not stay and fight. A lower combat strength if attacked and a lower overall ranged strength might help balance the unit, or maybe just one of these would be enough to keep them balanced, I dunno, its hard to check without using them eh! :lol: Other than that, a nice civ, even if it does neglect the naval tradition that made Athens famous :L Whatever, you can't represent everything, it was either the culture, or the navy, I really can't decide which is more important.

Sparta is nice, but such an iconic civ could surely have a more interesting UU than just a flat damage boost Hoplite? A 10% combat bonus for every adjacent enemy unit would be pretty awesome, powerful, doesn't seem too OP, since at high levels like with 5 or 6 units, you'd have to worry about the fact you have 5 or 6 units surrounding you, a 60% bonus wouldn't help you take all of them down single handed, and it relates nicely to the whole 300 thing that makes Sparta so famous. Other than that, again, pretty solid, though 45 XP on creation could be OP, can't see without testing of course.

Makedonia (Macedonia, if you aren't pretentious like me...) is all round solid, firaxis obviously having laid down the leader and a UU, but the UA is pretty awesome, and makes sense. Acropolis is coool, though maybe another UU could work for a civ that has such a war focused UA (and history). Some kind of Phalanxman or something could work

All in all, I like it, with a few very minor changes I'd love these civs to be introduced.

Edit: Oh, I almost forgot, one minor problem... uh... city lists? ahahah theoretically, Athens and Sparta couldn't found more than 1 city... maybe a Venice type approach with these guys then? In which case, I'd welcome some OP UUs/UAs.

I completely forgot I made this post! Anyway, each of the three took something from the blob we currently have. Athens = UA, Sparta = Hoplite, Macedon = Calvary.

While I don't see Firaxis splitting the blob up into three or more (I think the best we could do is Greek and Macedon), it's fun to think of.

But, with city lists, it would be pretty easy actually.

Athens
Athens
Syracuse
Thebes
Boatia
Messenia
Arcadia
(In other words, Delian League members.)

Sparta
Sparta
Tarantums
Lyttus
Thermopylae
Mantinea
Ellis
(In other words, allies of Sparta during Peloponnesian War.)

Macedon
Pella
Aigai
Archelaus
Amphipolis
Alexandria
etc

Sure these are blobby, but less so.

I would also throw in the Minoans as part of the de-blobbing of Greece, but I don't know much about them.
 
I completely forgot I made this post! Anyway, each of the three took something from the blob we currently have. Athens = UA, Sparta = Hoplite, Macedon = Calvary.

While I don't see Firaxis splitting the blob up into three or more (I think the best we could do is Greek and Macedon), it's fun to think of.

But, with city lists, it would be pretty easy actually.

Athens
Athens
Syracuse
Thebes
Boatia
Messenia
Arcadia
(In other words, Delian League members.)

Sparta
Sparta
Tarantums
Lyttus
Thermopylae
Mantinea
Ellis
(In other words, allies of Sparta during Peloponnesian War.)

Macedon
Pella
Aigai
Archelaus
Amphipolis
Alexandria
etc

Sure these are blobby, but less so.

I would also throw in the Minoans as part of the de-blobbing of Greece, but I don't know much about them.

Yeah, sorry it took so long to reply back, I've been pretty busy ahaha.
I get the whole, borrowing from aspects of the current greek civ, but don't let that restrain you, the Hoplite has always been a really boring unit and if we're gonna totally overhaul the civ, it could do with a tweak, no? Companion Cavalry and Delian League do fit though, which is nice.

Yeah, that makes sense, though, you could just make them OCC like venice and then really push up the power of their UAs, excluding Makedon, of course, who could have a full city list.
 
I really like some of the ideas here, but, overall, its the names that let me down. It highlights a huge problem here, that we really don't know enough about these guys to get a Civ going, there would be huuge problems for City lists, UU names, UB names etc etc etc. Plus, these tribes themselves, as they are, really aren't well known or iconic enough to cut it for me, which is annoying because the ideas for UUs and stuff are all awesome, wish they could be applied to some... 'better' seems like a harsh word to use...

But, yeah, better Civs. :lol:

Damn, Tacitus really should have been more descriptive, though I'm not sure he could have foreseen this scenario...

Yeah, I agree. Anything about tribes are so ... vague.
 
@Insanely Apple - Athens attacked Syracuse because it was allied to Sparta but I agree with the others.

Germany
Bismarck
Berlin
Modern Engineering - Every Scientist specialist provides 2 production. +1 Science on all great person improvements.
Freikorps (Cavalry) - -2 Strength but 25% bonuses in friendly territory and against civs of opposing ideologies.
Panzer - As it is

Carolingians/Holy Roman Empire
Charlemagne
Aachen/Wien
Electorate Princes - Gain an extra delagate in World Congress. Each friendly city state gives 2 happiness.
Lansknecht - As it is
Rathaus (Courthouse) - Reduces enemy spy effectiveness by 5% in all cities and +1 gold.

Germania
Arminius
?
Furor Teutonicus - As it is
Warband (Swordsman) - Doesn't require iron. -2 strength but terrain bonuses doubled.
Sacred Grove (UI) May only be built on forests and may only be pillaged by city owner. +1 Faith and -10% strength for enemy units. Friendly units that fortify on the tile +10% strength until upgraded. Unlocked at Hunting.
 
@Insanely Apple - Athens attacked Syracuse because it was allied to Sparta but I agree with the others.

Germany
Bismarck
Berlin
Modern Engineering - Every Scientist specialist provides 2 production. +1 Science on all great person improvements.
Freikorps (Cavalry) - -2 Strength but 25% bonuses in friendly territory and against civs of opposing ideologies.
Panzer - As it is

Carolingians/Holy Roman Empire
Charlemagne
Aachen/Wien
Electorate Princes - Gain an extra delagate in World Congress. Each friendly city state gives 2 happiness.
Lansknecht - As it is
Rathaus (Courthouse) - Reduces enemy spy effectiveness by 5% in all cities and +1 gold.

Germania
Arminius
?
Furor Teutonicus - As it is
Warband (Swordsman) - Doesn't require iron. -2 strength but terrain bonuses doubled.
Sacred Grove (UI) May only be built on forests and may only be pillaged by city owner. +1 Faith and -10% strength for enemy units. Friendly units that fortify on the tile +10% strength until upgraded. Unlocked at Hunting.

I like these ideas a lot, though instead of the extra science on GP improvements, you could have an inverse to the scientist thing, I think I saw that somewhere and liked it, scientists provide 1 production and engineers 1 science. Only problem for me is that either way its passive and can get a little boring.

Either way, I like the splits, the HRE UA seems a tad boring to me personally, but I dunno, the UU and UB seem pretty solid (maybe make it so the pikeman upgrades to the rifleman a la Impi, because thats a big problem right now eh)

Love germania, the UU is a really cool idea and makes a lot of sense historically, without being too flashy, very good. Sacred grove seems kind of OP though, but I'm not sure, might require testing/I'm an idiot and havn't understood it :lol: (also, I assume you mean trapping ;))

What is bloobs?
The idea of a bloob is something that was thrown around a lot prior to the release of BNW, and basically, a bloob is when a load of diverse cultures and groups are lumped together under 1 heading even though they are incredibly different and are mainly due to a slight european bias on the game. e.g having the mughals, harappa, mauryans and modern india all thrown under the heading 'India' is like having germany, britain, holland and belgium under the heading 'germanics' with a panzer UU, Polder UI and a bonus to naval combat :lol:
 
Polynesian bloobs:

Hawaii
Tonga
Samoa
Rapa Nui
Kiribati
Fiji
Tuvalu
Maori
Palau
etc
 
Polynesian bloobs:

Hawaii
Tonga
Samoa
Rapa Nui
Kiribati
Fiji
Tuvalu
Maori
Palau
etc

Yeah, I know, the point here is to split the bloobs into interesting Civ ideas with distinct gameplay elements that could work in Civ, not just name the bloobs, think those islands could have some ideas behind them? I don't know a whole lot about Polynesia but as far as I know none of those are significant enough on their own to make up a Civ, not to mention the tremendous amounts of overlap you'd end up with. Feel free to prove me wrong of course!
 
I like these ideas a lot, though instead of the extra science on GP improvements, you could have an inverse to the scientist thing, I think I saw that somewhere and liked it, scientists provide 1 production and engineers 1 science. Only problem for me is that either way its passive and can get a little boring.

Either way, I like the splits, the HRE UA seems a tad boring to me personally, but I dunno, the UU and UB seem pretty solid (maybe make it so the pikeman upgrades to the rifleman a la Impi, because thats a big problem right now eh)

Love germania, the UU is a really cool idea and makes a lot of sense historically, without being too flashy, very good. Sacred grove seems kind of OP though, but I'm not sure, might require testing/I'm an idiot and havn't understood it :lol: (also, I assume you mean trapping ;))

1. I now it's a bit passive and more like vanilla civs than later but that's all I could think of. I thought about setting science to engineers too but wasn't sure how strong that would be.

2. I'd make regular pikemen upgrade into something proper like riflemen/musketman if I had the choice and maybe halve upgrade costs for Landsknechts too because they are so expensive.

3. Trapping is what I said. :mischief: I think it would need testing but maybe the defence bonus is a bit much. Maybe it should be 2 faith instead of that which is OP until you get a religion but after then, it is better to change it. Maybe the penalty to enemies should apply to everyone except Germania whether the city is captured or not. Then there would be incentive to destroy it or risk giving bonuses should Germania try to reclaim the city.



I've also been thinking about changing the Celts. Along with Germania:

Gaul
Vercingetorix/Brennus
Alesia
??? - 50% of food surplus is converted into culture.
Forest Rider (Horseman) - No terrain cost and starts with Rough I.
Gallic Warrior (Spearman) - Like a Pictish Warrior but gains gold.

Britannia
Boudica
Druidic Lore - As it is
Essedum (Chariot Archer) - No rough terrain penalty and stronger in melee.
Dun (Walls) - Same health but lower strength bonus. +2 Culture on pastures.

Gaels/Scotland
William Wallace
Edinburgh
??? - -10% unhappiness from cities founded on hills. Each adjacent hill provides +1 food in golden ages.
Highlander (Longswordsman) - Slightly weaker but double movement in hills and +25% bonus attacking.
Ceilidh Hall - As it is

Some of those bonuses are similar or not very 'new' but they all have different orientations.
 
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