crossbow man overpowed?

bonafide11 · Mar 14, 2012

Silverfuturist said:
That is right, most do, but not all. For example, I had a Songhai Knight to Russian Cossak upgrade plan on a team game, but when I gifted my Songhai Knights to Russia and he upgraded them to Cossaks the city-bonus promotions were lost! I wanted to have city-killing-bonsus-vs-wounded cavalry! Boo!

I don't believe Songhai knights upgraded to Cavalry even maintain that promotion. I once was disappointed when I played them and found that my knights no longer that had that city-attack bonus.

King_Course · Mar 14, 2012

Multiplayer is a very good indication of what is strong units, and in MP you see 6-7 crossbows sieging a city, and a single Knight waitng outside range to do the final attack.

The big problem is that you can't even take a steel sword out and attack the crossbow to take 1 for 1, it will survive and your steel will be shot into the ground. So a crossbow army is a tide moving forward and a balanced army a steady retreat to avoid losing a war of attrition. Until they hit a city which forces the balanced army to fight and lose.

Silverfuturist · Mar 15, 2012

King_Course said:
Multiplayer is a very good indication of what is strong units, and in MP you see 6-7 crossbows sieging a city, and a single Knight waitng outside range to do the final attack.

The big problem is that you can't even take a steel sword out and attack the crossbow to take 1 for 1, it will survive and your steel will be shot into the ground. So a crossbow army is a tide moving forward and a balanced army a steady retreat to avoid losing a war of attrition. Until they hit a city which forces the balanced army to fight and lose.

This is EXACTLY what happens in 2x2s or duels where one team/player rushes crossbows, and the other player/team doesn't get them for a while. :goodjob:

The party rushing crossbows often will have a group of archers ready for upgrade, pop great scientist from Liberty, and roll over the opponent(s) until they get crossbows or knights themselves. France makes this plan even more deadly (earlier Liberty finisher) and rushing Oracle to finish Liberty early is often also a part of the plan.

apocalypse105 · Mar 15, 2012

Silverfuturist said:
This is EXACTLY what happens in 2x2s or duels where one team/player rushes crossbows, and the other player/team doesn't get them for a while.

The party rushing crossbows often will have a group of archers ready for upgrade, pop great scientist from Liberty, and roll over the opponent(s) until they get crossbows or knights themselves. France makes this plan even more deadly (earlier Liberty finisher) and rushing Oracle to finish Liberty early is often also a part of the plan.

Exactuly knights can't even counter them there is something wrong

I know it is a alternative if you don't have iron but still

KiffeLesBiffles · Mar 15, 2012

Silverfuturist said:
This is EXACTLY what happens in 2x2s or duels where one team/player rushes crossbows, and the other player/team doesn't get them for a while.

The party rushing crossbows often will have a group of archers ready for upgrade, pop great scientist from Liberty, and roll over the opponent(s) until they get crossbows or knights themselves. France makes this plan even more deadly (earlier Liberty finisher) and rushing Oracle to finish Liberty early is often also a part of the plan.

It is hard to have enough cash to upgrade a sufficient number of crossbows, it is 115 gold = 2 swords !
I also pre-build them. When you bulb machinery make sure all your city are building archers with one turn left: archers will be converted to crossbows in the production slot the turn after. You gain some turns for your rush.

But, imo, having crossbows first is less important than having good production: crossbows are costly to product and you need some to make a efficient army.

Silverfuturist · Mar 15, 2012

apocalypse105 said:
Exactuly knights can't even counter them there is something wrong

I know it is a alternative if you don't have iron but still

I counter crossbows with knights all of the time. :cool:

1. Road network around cities
2. Barracks (heroic epic even better if you can get it in time)
3. Knights are on road behind city
4. Hit crossbow with the knight that has the right promotion for the terrain
5. Knight returns to spot behind city.

It is also cheaper to upgrade horsemen to knights as it is archer to crossbows. Because I have stables in all cities that allow it, my knights are cheaper than their crossbows and I am not afraid to trade. If I have enough gold I will make horsemen in my lower production cities and upgrade to knights to stop the onslaught.

apocalypse105 · Mar 15, 2012

Silverfuturist said:
I counter crossbows with knights all of the time.

1. Road network around cities
2. Barracks (heroic epic even better if you can get it in time)
3. Knights are on road behind city
4. Hit crossbow with the knight that has the right promotion for the terrain
5. Knight returns to spot behind city.

It is also cheaper to upgrade horsemen to knights as it is archer to crossbows. Because I have stables in all cities that allow it, my knights are cheaper than their crossbows and I am not afraid to trade. If I have enough gold I will make horsemen in my lower production cities and upgrade to knights to stop the onslaught.

Try that on the open field I was talking about the open field with no rouds or enemy territory

Babri · Mar 18, 2012

Silverfuturist said:
In single player I agree, the AI won't try any kind of creative defense plan and is basically helpless against them. In addition, you get crazy promotions fast with Keshiks causing a domination snowball effect.

In multi-player I have not lost a game to the Mongols yet and I would rather face Keshiks than chu-ko-nus or longbows. It does take some techniques to defend vs Keshiks, and when I roll Mongols I usually dominate with Keshiks.

The Keshiks are fragile, knights kill them with ease. I have roads set up around my cities so that my knights and horsemen can hit and retreat. The crazy promotions people get vs the AI they don't get vs intelligent humans as there is high unit turnover vs good opponents. Very often the promotion is used as a heal to save the unit. Also if the Mongols are near you then place your cities near them in such a way that Keshiks don't have easy access to bombard your city and retreat. A city with rivers and rough terrain placed nicely around it will put a stop to those annoying hit and run tactics, especially when you have mounted units on roads to wipe them out.

I got killed in a 2x2 where I had Keshiks and my opponent had Camel Archers, which had a higher attack and a higher defense value. Agaisnt the AI I would take Keshiks over Camel Archers, but against a strong human opponent... I prefer Camels.

U r probably not using pillaging tactics. If u do that & cut the enemy road connections. 5 moves are sufficient for pillaging & making some cash out of it in my opinion.

And u can stop their knights easily by breaking their roads. Horsemen might cause some trouble but u can kill them next turn & once u get march u can heal really fast with a Khan nearby.

Silverfuturist · Mar 18, 2012

Babri said:
U r probably not using pillaging tactics. If u do that & cut the enemy road connections. 5 moves are sufficient for pillaging & making some cash out of it in my opinion.
And u can stop their knights easily by breaking their roads. Horsemen might cause some trouble but u can kill them next turn & once u get march u can heal really fast with a Khan nearby.

With simultneous moves in multiplayer, the Keshik pops up in your territory and you kill it with a knight. If you are faster it doesn't even get to pillage before you kill it. Units do not survive long enough to get march on either side, unless there is a huge skill difference between the players. With hotseat (taking turns when moving like single player) I think the power of the Keshik is much higher than simultaneous moving. Opponent takes their turn, some of your units vanish. You also set up units differently and change tactics with simulatneous moves vs taking turns.

Babri · Mar 18, 2012

Silverfuturist said:
With simultneous moves in multiplayer, the Keshik pops up in your territory and you kill it with a knight. If you are faster it doesn't even get to pillage before you kill it. Units do not survive long enough to get march on either side, unless there is a huge skill difference between the players. With hotseat (taking turns when moving like single player) I think the power of the Keshik is much higher than simultaneous moving. Opponent takes their turn, some of your units vanish. You also set up units differently and change tactics with simulatneous moves vs taking turns.

Oh well ! I have only tried mp on hotseat. Keshliks really shine there. Can't say about simultaneous turns.

HardRocker · Mar 18, 2012

apocalypse105 said:
Is it jsut me or are crosbowman overpowered?

I mean previouslt patch it had 6 strenght and 12 range strenght

WIch is balanced

But now its 15 range and 10 strenght(melee strenght)

I don' t mind the extra range strenght it was a little bit on the weak side especially against longswordsman however 10 melee strenght really?

Pikeman can't compete against these units, longswordsman are stronger in melee but with proper flanking or terain modifiers they as worse as pikeman in close combat...

And even on open terain massive crosbowman beat swordsman because the longswordsman gets seriously damaged when atacking a crosbowman in melee combat..

ANd knights well they actually are usefull against crosbowman however they come pretty late an you usally will have horsemen at the time you're opponent will have crosbowman ...
and having a single flanking bonus or a terain bonus let you do enough dammage on mellee to kill him

Anybody else thinx crosbowman are way overpowered especially on multiplayer.

BUt not to mention against the AI I have won so much wars with only crosbowman

I actually think it is not necessarily balanced, but very realistic. Crossbows were arguably the most deadly weapon of the Medieval era, they were used frequently even into the Renaissance. They could kill enemies with deadly proficiency from very long range, or just a few feet away. I like the new system, especially since most of my wars are started by greedy AI, and my crossbowmen just let me sit back and enjoy the show.

apocalypse105 · Mar 18, 2012

HardRocker said:
I actually think it is not necessarily balanced, but very realistic. Crossbows were arguably the most deadly weapon of the Medieval era, they were used frequently even into the Renaissance. They could kill enemies with deadly proficiency from very long range, or just a few feet away. I like the new system, especially since most of my wars are started by greedy AI, and my crossbowmen just let me sit back and enjoy the show.

True but one big charge of knights killed the enemy lines of crosbowman...

And I don't see that happen in civ 5

here is some info:

the rate of fire is a crossbowman's weakness. Shooting two bolts a minute is very good, with one bolt a minute being average, compared to 6 to 10 arrows a minute for archers at the top of their game. To protect themselves while reloading, crossbowmen crouch behind a heavy shield (pavise) to avoid incoming enemy fire. So while crossbows are able to take a toll of an enemy armed only with short bows, they aren't weapons of annihilation.

HardRocker · Mar 18, 2012

apocalypse105 said:
True but one big charge of knights killed the enemy lines of crosbowman...

And I don't see that happen in civ 5

here is some info:

the rate of fire is a crossbowman's weakness. Shooting two bolts a minute is very good, with one bolt a minute being average, compared to 6 to 10 arrows a minute for archers at the top of their game. To protect themselves while reloading, crossbowmen crouch behind a heavy shield (pavise) to avoid incoming enemy fire. So while crossbows are able to take a toll of an enemy armed only with short bows, they aren't weapons of annihilation.

Yes, but in organised armies, crossbowmen were protected by polearm infantry, seperate from the other "divisions", to protect from cavalry. And also, I believe that they may have unrealistic melee strength, but I enjoy and approve of the high ranged combat strength.

apocalypse105 · Mar 19, 2012

HardRocker said:
Yes, but in organised armies, crossbowmen were protected by polearm infantry, seperate from the other "divisions", to protect from cavalry. And also, I believe that they may have unrealistic melee strength, but I enjoy and approve of the high ranged combat strength.

I didn't say anything about the high ranged combat strenght i thinx its just fine the problem is the high melee strenght.

you even don't neede to build pikeman or other melee units and place them before crosbowman to defend you're crosbows against knights

HardRocker · Mar 19, 2012

apocalypse105 said:
I didn't say anything about the high ranged combat strenght i thinx its just fine the problem is the high melee strenght.

you even don't neede to build pikeman or other melee units and place them before crosbowman to defend you're crosbows against knights

Or they could just be very smart crossbowmen, who hold their ammunition and wait for the enemy (knights in this case) to get close, and fire at close and lethal range.

I see your point, but I also see and agree with the point made by Firaxis when they made the crossbowmen stronger.

notadummy · Mar 19, 2012

in my world history class that I'm taking, we are actually learning about around this time period. Europe/the Holy Roman Empire was in a feudalism state, so they had lots of "knights". (skip some other stuff). They eventually become enemies with the Italians and the pope. The Italians and the pop ally with each other to form the Lombard League. They get lots of crossbows, which then crush the Holy Roman Empire, so knights are no longer used much.
Basically, crossbows caused the death of knights being used in battle.
Just saying

CYZ · Mar 20, 2012

It's even worse if they upgraded from slingers. They either retreat without any damage, completely exposing the knight, or they survive as normal and still kill it.

In the expansion there is a new unit coming between bows and crossbows, the compositebow. This will most likely push the crossbow back and thereby balance it.

apocalypse105 · Mar 20, 2012

notadummy said:
in my world history class that I'm taking, we are actually learning about around this time period. Europe/the Holy Roman Empire was in a feudalism state, so they had lots of "knights". (skip some other stuff). They eventually become enemies with the Italians and the pope. The Italians and the pop ally with each other to form the Lombard League. They get lots of crossbows, which then crush the Holy Roman Empire, so knights are no longer used much.
Basically, crossbows caused the death of knights being used in battle.
Just saying

Ok good point but after gunpowder was used on the battlefield the crosbowman quickly became osolete because it fired a lot slower then certain guns

but in civ 5 crosbowman kill musketman

and I am not talking about reality again but about gameplay a range unit that can't be killed by melee units breaks the game appart it removes the strategic decission from defending you're range units

and worst of all it nerves horse units indirectly and they are allready slightly underated

HardRocker said:
Or they could just be very smart crossbowmen, who hold their ammunition and wait for the enemy (knights in this case) to get close, and fire at close and lethal range.

I see your point, but I also see and agree with the point made by Firaxis when they made the crossbowmen stronger.

Whats firaxis point when they buffed crosbow kinda seems pointless to me?

crossbow man overpowed?

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