Technology Research Explained....

allnightplayer · Sep 27, 2006

DaviddesJ said:
I don't see why this is hard. Just play another turn, with research at 0%, and see how many beakers end up in the research project.

Hmm... why couldn't i think of that myself!! :blush:

Upon reflection, i agree with you that the research overflow (without modifiers) isn't such a big issue. However, i do wonder how they plan to 'fix' it... the way research is structured in the game, it seems that ANY solution they favour (no overflow/overflow but with no bonus modifiers/overflow with previous modifiers/overflow with new modifiers) would all lead to some 'micromanagement' compulsions...

DaviddesJ · Sep 27, 2006

allnightplayer said:
Upon reflection, i agree with you that the research overflow (without modifiers) isn't such a big issue. However, i do wonder how they plan to 'fix' it... the way research is structured in the game, it seems that ANY solution they favour (no overflow/overflow but with no bonus modifiers/overflow with previous modifiers/overflow with new modifiers) would all lead to some 'micromanagement' compulsions...

When you're researching technology 1, you get research multiplier X1 (i.e., generating B beakers puts B*X1 into researching technology 1). When you switch to researching technology 2, you get research multiplier X2. So the beakers that go into tech 2 should be (overflow from tech 1)*X2/X1.

This is already how production overflow works; it's no harder to do the same for research.

Since research in Warlords is computed to 1/100 of a beaker, even rounding issues are not material.

But whether it will actually be right after the patch, I don't know.

allnightplayer · Sep 27, 2006

DaviddesJ said:
So the beakers that go into tech 2 should be (overflow from tech 1)*X2/X1.

Yeah, you're right... that WOULD fix it. :goodjob:

If they have managed to see the above logic for production overflows (i didn't know it worked that way for hammers) then i am sure they should be able to do the same for beakers in the next patch.

In any case, i don't have warlords (it hasn't reached shelves in my part of the world yet), so i hope they release a patch applying the same fix for vanilla civ4 too...

DaviddesJ · Sep 27, 2006

allnightplayer said:
In any case, i don't have warlords (it hasn't reached shelves in my part of the world yet), so i hope they release a patch applying the same fix for vanilla civ4 too...

My impression is that there will never be any more patches for vanilla Civ4, after 1.61.

Dog of Justice · Oct 2, 2006

DaviddesJ said:
My impression is that there will never be any more patches for vanilla Civ4, after 1.61.

There is a user-created fix at http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=157232.

HUSch · Dec 10, 2006

I ve following problem.
I play MP with 7 teams.
For research of a tech (with Prerequisites modifier = 1,2) with cost 149, I get following answers, if I change to the tech, also no overflow:
1) with 13 k in 9 turns, also >= 17 beakers
2) with 14 k in 9 turns.

with the formel in post 1 I get:
from 1) 13 + 1 = 14 *(1 + k*0,3/7) >= 17/1,2=14,17 also ist k=2
from 2) 14 + 1 = 15 *(1 + 2*0,3/7) = 16,2 also 16*1,2 = 19,2 also 19 beaker, also research in 8 turns, against the ingame message of 9.

Question: what's wrong with the situation, how many teams have the tech?

btw sry, if my english is not so good; it's not my native.

Ralgar · Aug 23, 2007

Requies said:
The overflow is calculated by the modifiers from the PREVIOUS Technology.

Does the overflow stack up? Say, you make 500 beakers a turn and want to grab a few ancient techs which you avoided (no tech trading), like Aesthetic, Literature, Drama and Music. If after that your research a more costly technology which would normaly need more than one turn, will you get an overflow to which all the modifiers where applied multiple times? Or is it cut like the production overflow and it would be more efficient to lower your research level?

AalaarDB · Mar 30, 2008

I realize this is an older thread and unlikely to be edited, but I was just pointed here in order to answer one of my questions (it was answered) and found an error. True I use BtS and the HOF mod so maybe things have changed. The error is in step 2 of the basics where it says

So, yes, you WILL get AT LEAST one gold from each city that has a commerce that is not a multiple of 10, if your science or culture is not 100%

I have 3 cities and my commerce is not a multiple of 10 in any of them. If my gold is at 10% I should get at least 3 gold per turn according to this statement, but I get only 2. Here are the numbers. City #1 pulls in 16 commerce. Both other cities pull in 4 each, for a total of 24 commerce each turn. At 10% gold, I generate 1.6 + 0.4 + 0.4 gold which is 2.4 gold floored to 2. Or it could be that the rounding (to nearest) is happening before the addition, so let's disprove that. (By this I mean 2(1.6) + 0(0.4) + 0(0.4)). If city #1's commerce is reduced to 14 then 1.4 gold would be rounded to 1 and I'd get only 1 gold per turn. Since I get 2 we know the rounding happens after the addition. And further to prove that the type of rounding is flooring and not rounding to the nearest, we increase the commerce to 26. 2.6 still turns out 2, not 3, so 2.6 must be floored.

So, given that I have 24 commerce (and ignoring the +1 science for having a city and all other modifiers), if I set it to 100% science I get 24 science and 0 gold. If I set it to 100% gold I get 0 science and 24 gold. Unfortunately, if I set it to 90% science and 10% gold I get 21 science and 2 gold. Similarly, if I have 10% science and 90% gold I get 2 science and 21 gold.

So the correct formula for science and gold generated is, quite simply;
FLOOR (rate * commerce)
(+1 science if there is a city).

Therefore, you will often lose 1 commerce if your slider is not set to 100% of something. What I often do to achieve a 80% science rating, say, is do 1 turn of 100% gold then 4 turns of 100% science. This might not always be a good idea though.

Roland Johansen · Mar 30, 2008

AalaarDB said:
I realize this is an older thread and unlikely to be edited, but I was just pointed here in order to answer one of my questions (it was answered) and found an error. True I use BtS and the HOF mod so maybe things have changed. The error is in step 2 of the basics where it says

I have 3 cities and my commerce is not a multiple of 10 in any of them. If my gold is at 10% I should get at least 3 gold per turn according to this statement, but I get only 2. Here are the numbers. City #1 pulls in 16 commerce. Both other cities pull in 4 each, for a total of 24 commerce each turn. At 10% gold, I generate 1.6 + 0.4 + 0.4 gold which is 2.4 gold floored to 2. Or it could be that the rounding (to nearest) is happening before the addition, so let's disprove that. (By this I mean 2(1.6) + 0(0.4) + 0(0.4)). If city #1's commerce is reduced to 14 then 1.4 gold would be rounded to 1 and I'd get only 1 gold per turn. Since I get 2 we know the rounding happens after the addition. And further to prove that the type of rounding is flooring and not rounding to the nearest, we increase the commerce to 26. 2.6 still turns out 2, not 3, so 2.6 must be floored.

So, given that I have 24 commerce (and ignoring the +1 science for having a city and all other modifiers), if I set it to 100% science I get 24 science and 0 gold. If I set it to 100% gold I get 0 science and 24 gold. Unfortunately, if I set it to 90% science and 10% gold I get 21 science and 2 gold. Similarly, if I have 10% science and 90% gold I get 2 science and 21 gold.

So the correct formula for science and gold generated is, quite simply;
FLOOR (rate * commerce)
(+1 science if there is a city).

Therefore, you will often lose 1 commerce if your slider is not set to 100% of something. What I often do to achieve a 80% science rating, say, is do 1 turn of 100% gold then 4 turns of 100% science. This might not always be a good idea though.

This was changed some time ago. In the earlier versions of civ4, gold and science production in cities was rounded to integer numbers which resulted in all kinds or rounding issues and making a on-off research policy even more important. There was some discussion about it in those days and in some patch or expansion pack it was changed so that gold and science and culture is calculated with more accuracy.

VirusMonster · Apr 1, 2008

While the rounding system now does take into account the .xx component of the commerce, when the commerce or science is displayed on the main screen next to the slider rate, the decimal number is not shown.

csarmi · Jul 11, 2008

The 20% bonus for prerequisite is still floor'd afterwards, right? (Hammers too, if they get modifiers.)

I have either 11 or 9 commerce at start. To research mining (cost displayed 585 beakers) I take 42 turns if I work the lake (11 commerce) or 49 turns if I work the forest (9 commerce). I have a mandatory prerequisite of it, mining.

Floor((11+1)*1.2) = 14, 14*42 = 588
Floor((9+1)*1.2) = 12, 12*49 = 588

Is it calculated like this?

Now for something interesting. Though not surprising, but it seems to contradict what VirusMonster says (BTS).

I have 1 town, producing 11 commerce.
At 90% slider, that becomes 9.9
If I research a technology that I have a 20% bonus for, I get 12 beakers/turn.

Floor(9.9+1)*1.2 = 12

It can't be Floor((9.9+1)*1.2), for that is 13.
It can't be Floor(9.9*1.2+1) either. That one is 12 as well, but at 9 commerce, 100% slider I get 12 commerce per turn.

So rounding errors still make your life harder. Of course, I believe, the more cities you get, the better it will be, cause I suppose the numbers only get floored after all cities are added up.

codewarrior · Oct 13, 2008

Correction: The known-civs modifier and the prerequisites modifier are ADDITIVE. The formula should look more like this:

Beakers applied to Technology = FLOOR ( (Total Base Beakers + 1) * ( 100% + KCwT modifer + Prerequisites modifier )

BuDDaH · Jul 28, 2011

codewarrior said:
Correction: The known-civs modifier and the prerequisites modifier are ADDITIVE. The formula should look more like this:

Beakers applied to Technology = FLOOR ( (Total Base Beakers + 1) * ( 100% + KCwT modifer + Prerequisites modifier )

Is it really so? I've read many people on the forums who assumed the midifiers were multiplicative and the formula wuold be FLOOR ( (Total Base Beakers + 1) * ( 100% + KCwT modifer*Prerequisites modifier ).

Is there some game code to support either of the two assumptions?

And the magic beaker. Where is its exact position in the formula? Is it added before multiplying by the modifieres or after, or may be even between them? I've seen different variants of this part of the reserch formula, still adding before modifires is obviously the most popular one.

Technology Research Explained....

allnightplayer

Chieftain

DaviddesJ

Deity

allnightplayer

Chieftain

DaviddesJ

Deity

Dog of Justice

Chieftain

HUSch

Secret-monger

Ralgar

Warlord

AalaarDB

Chieftain

Roland Johansen

Deity

VirusMonster

Quechua General

csarmi

Chieftain

codewarrior

Chieftain

BuDDaH

Chieftain

Similar threads