Hunter/Gathering Nomadic start at Game Open project

The current proof of concept Nomadic Start does work but only for the first 20 turns or so;) After which all players who have settled will be far in advance of the Nomads because we have not done the work needed to further the project.
 
Thunderbrd said:
There hasn't been any direct development on the project yet SO but it is something we all want to see done. AIAndy and I both have a pretty good consensus on how this should be done I think but we both just need the dedication to this project to open up in our workloads.
Click to expand...

Thunderbrd would you like to detail anything that you and AIAndy have discussed? I'm very curious and would love to see nomad start implemented...
 
Actually, although its a lot to read, this thread has pretty much all of our proposals stated in it throughout.

There's still a few things up for some discussion but I think we've got a lot of the concept hammered out anyhow.
 
Thunderbrd said:
Actually, although its a lot to read, this thread has pretty much all of our proposals stated in it throughout.

There's still a few things up for some discussion but I think we've got a lot of the concept hammered out anyhow.
Click to expand...

I actually read through the entire thread as this and the dynamic culture seem awesome to me. I could personly want these more than multi maps :).

I have quite a few ideas on this concept and would love to talk to you about it and see what you think. I'm working on getting all of my concepts worked out but I feel like it always turns out better when we discuss it together. I would like to start doing some work beyond map making and could use a guide to help me through some concepts. I would be happy to help with whatever it is that you are working on currently.
 
Not to be Joseph Jr here, but wouldn't it make more sense to prioritize this project over multi maps given that far more people are going to see the Prehistoric than the Transhuman or Galactic? We don't even have a balanced Ancient start, and we've historically prioritized Prehistoric for (I assume) this very reason.

Sorry for not raising this sooner, but with the speed viewports got put in I assumed multi maps would be more of a cinch than they're turning out to be.
 
@Praetyre

1. Don't you dare become Joseph Jr. :spank:

2. Well as you go to each era it less and less balanced. However we have done our best over the updates to balance Prehistoric to Renaissance since those are the most played eras. However more recently Industrial to Trans-Human has been worked on. But we still have a long way to go.
 
Praetyre said:
Not to be Joseph Jr here, but wouldn't it make more sense to prioritize this project over multi maps given that far more people are going to see the Prehistoric than the Transhuman or Galactic? We don't even have a balanced Ancient start, and we've historically prioritized Prehistoric for (I assume) this very reason.

Sorry for not raising this sooner, but with the speed viewports got put in I assumed multi maps would be more of a cinch than they're turning out to be.
Click to expand...

I think that an Epic Nomadic start to the game is the 2nd priority, at least how we all voted, and is a big deal to how new people start C2C.
As 2nd priority it depends on some developments which are being worked out, like PrimOver's georealism, climate, weather, the harsh winter and ffh scripts for glaciers, stone age events(yes I need to get to it), and other prehistoric improvements.

I think that if we open C2C in an Epic way, ex) major interesting event opens up options for man/tribe facing the world, (example saber tooth tigers drive you out, or glaciers recede and open up new territory, mankind ventures out into the unknown world for the first time, a drought causes the tribe to search for new food, migration patterns cause you to follow a new species, or you can no longer hunt Mammoth the tribe needs a new food source -these berries look good to eat). You can even have a major event like a comet, or a pack of neanderthals upending the pleasant situation you once lived off of. A change of scenery/exploration can be very exciting in a living world when everything seems new. Maybe you come up with the idea of a god/force of nature when a forest fire happens, or flooding moves your tribe for the first time in remembered history. Having enough initial variety and excitement, is well exciting. Discovery is the 1st step, Expansion the second. Nomadic following of the herds, weather, food sourcing, wondrous new lands. (you have found a vast area of trees, rivers natural wonders, temp advantageous resources 'etc. 'remember 7 Cities of Gold video game?' )

Anyway the beginning of the game sets the tone for the whole game, introduces the scope of C2C to new people, and plugs them in to the differences from Civ IV vanilla so it should be Epic and notable in some eventful and specific way to C2C. We should try to get something in asap and ongoing discussion should be pretty regular right now, while we are also figuring out multi-maps.

I also think that as Multi-Maps are being worked out, (and some ongoing discussion is needed for both priorities), that it should be worked on as people feel like they can contribute. When people are stumped on immediate process on 1 priority, they can shift to another until they can maneuver around them. Multi-maps (which make take a year to get working correctly) should stay a focus (it gets done when we all work together to figure it out and care about it as a group priority). EPIC nomadic start is a collecting of beginning game improvements which can make sporadic progress around everyone's individual desires and Multi-maps as comfortable. We just need a better idea of what we would want to make the Nomadic start - EPIC!! (Yes I want us to have an EPIC start (and finish) to C2C, not mention an amazing journey that could take a month/year to play (as well as a week, day games can already be had with AND, K-MOD, quick experimental games.))

I really like how people are coming together to help each other overcome obstacles. It really does take a team to tackle the bigger solutions. It comes down to coming together to discuss and brainstorm how to make things work. When everyone focuses, or talk about things, they are much more likely to get done. Solutions unravel themselves. I think ongoing conversation and collaborative focus are the true keys to success here. Having alternative focuses (2nd priority, individual efforts, ongoing discussion) is going to keep things equally fresh and moving. With a little more help we can even get a bit more done. We might even surprise ourselves with our willingness to want things done even better.

Some complex obstacles do have undiscovered simple solutions. We might just have to talk it out, and experiment/ consider ideas a touch more. Shifting focus a bit can change our perspective.

Personally, instead of slowing us down, I see a difference in a opinion a challenge to make something better; that discussion can lead to breakthroughs. We just need to come to right now solutions to keep us moving and ongoing discussions to keep the obstacles in view. Aim past the limits! :)
 
RidetheSpiral23 said:
I actually read through the entire thread as this and the dynamic culture seem awesome to me. I could personly want these more than multi maps :).

I have quite a few ideas on this concept and would love to talk to you about it and see what you think. I'm working on getting all of my concepts worked out but I feel like it always turns out better when we discuss it together. I would like to start doing some work beyond map making and could use a guide to help me through some concepts. I would be happy to help with whatever it is that you are working on currently.
Click to expand...
Very cool. I will have some work for you within the next week then as I make some moves that will be necessary for some of the Leader and Traits issues I'm working on. More on that later this weekend.

I've always loved this Nomadic Start idea too and as you can see there's still a lot to do with it yet.
Praetyre said:
Not to be Joseph Jr here, but wouldn't it make more sense to prioritize this project over multi maps given that far more people are going to see the Prehistoric than the Transhuman or Galactic? We don't even have a balanced Ancient start, and we've historically prioritized Prehistoric for (I assume) this very reason.

Sorry for not raising this sooner, but with the speed viewports got put in I assumed multi maps would be more of a cinch than they're turning out to be.
Click to expand...
I somewhat agree...
 
Posting some ideas here that I had in another thread/discussion the other day.

Nomad Unit
Nomad units would both replace the early cities in the prehistoric as well as allow for mobile civilizations. Nomad units would be upgradable via promotions and would have the ability to perform different actions when "settled". Settling will be on demand and would not require the camp to stay settled for the long term. Options for actions that a settled camp could perform could include but are not limited to: produce unit, Performing a cultural act, perform religious rite, constructing a cultural site, or constructing a shelter/fortification. I will detail what I mean by these further down.

Nomad unit promotion lines would have similar promotions as regular units as well as promotion lines for better food/hammer gathering. Nomad units could eventually evolve into pastoral nomad units after livestock domestication if they so choice. As such they would have much better food/hammer production than normal nomads. This would also allow for pastoral nomad societies to compete with the sedentary societies later in game if they so choice.

So basically the idea is that the nomad unit would represent the center of the band as well as the gatherers. The unit would gather yields from surrounding tiles which would diminish over time causing them to move at regular intervals. Additional yields could be gathered by surrounding hunter units.

Yields
There would be four major yields the player would need to accumulate through the prehistoric era. These would then be defined in a global pool visible to the player.

Food - food would be collected from tiles as well as hunting. The global food pool would also diminish some per turn based on disease/number of units in play. As the most important aspect of the prehistoric should be survival, I felt that a struggle to maintain enough food for all your people so that they wouldn't die/disband would be more accurate and fun then just fighting for growth.

Hammers - collected from tiles and hunting. Used to build (insta buy) units from a nomad camp which would detract from the global pool. Also subtracted per turn if building a cultural site or fortification.

Culture - earned by performing culture act or religious rite or being within the vicinity of one of your past built cultural sites. Spent on a per turn basis to construct a cultural site.

Great General/Combat Points - as getting a great general in the prehistoric makes little to no sense I thought it could be used for something else. I will detail that in below sections. You earn combat points by successfully hunting an animal or killing a foe.

Discovery vs Research
I see the prehistoric as more of a discovery by doing era of man than a research era. As such a thought it could be a fun change of pace and fitting to change the prehistoric era tech progression to discovery style. To sum up, civs would gain technologies based on what they are doing as opposed to researching them. Performing more culture acts and gaining culture then you discover oral tradition. Gathering more resources and focusing on food production then you stumble upon herbalism. Find some prime timber and you will get wood working faster.

This system would need some good balancing but I really like the idea. The tech tree would be split into a couple types based on the yields I mentioned above as well as mixtures. Some examples... Herbalism would require a certain amount of food in your global food pool. Cooperation would need a threshold of so many culture points and combat points in your pool, etc. I hope I'm explaining it well enough for you to get the picture of how I imagine it.

Nomad Camp Actions
Performing Cultural Act - basically the unit would take up its turn(s) performing a dance, singing, etc. the culture put into your global pool would increase as your technology involving culture increases.

Performing Religious Act - this one would work very similar to cultural act as it would produce culture. It would also, depending on your religion, give a bonus of some kind to the camp and and any units on the same tile.

Construct Culture Site - this would work the same as the mechanic for building tile improvements but would place a culture site instead. Examples, henges, cave paintings, burial mounds, microliths, etc. Would also spread the property of your culture.

Construct Fortification - this would work similar to the constructing forts. Examples could be, trenches, hill fort, brochs etc.

This is all I have time to write at the moment but in a another post I will probably detail some thoughts on early diplomacy, animal migration, "raiding" on enemy sites and units and others.

Please let me know what you think...
 
Just wanted to state that we could have more than one type of Nomad ad the game progresses.

- Nomad (Nomadic Lifestyle)
- Horse Nomad (Animal Riding + Equine Domestication)
- Camel Nomad (Animal Riding + Camel Domestication)
- Nomad Biker (Motorized Transportation)

Nomad -> Horse/Camel Nomad -> Biker Nomad

Each level up on the Nomad upgrade chain gives better results when "camped" on a resource. Perhaps even have the "Nomadic Camp" give special units that can only be produced from them.
 
Feedback:

Some interesting thoughts in general. I'm going to state some disagreements but I hope you don't feel its to down your ideas as I do feel these are well thought out and delivered concepts. And pretty much anything I don't state a disagreement on can be presumed to be an agreement.

Nomad Unit
I don't want to see the nomad have to 'settle'. I'd prefer it if it were a constantly moving unit. In testing the first attempt Johny Smith made for something along these lines, I could see that the settling and mobilizing was a frustrating element. It felt like a waste of time doing either one. Strategically, it was a bad idea to uproot the community once it was established... a great way to fall behind for those rounds where you were mobile.

It's conceivable that it could be done without taking up the unit's action and perhaps you're not talking about a situation where the unit becomes a city and the city converts itself to a unit and I'm misreading your intention there. In that demo, a mobile nation was not producing research or production or any other yield while mobile so there was no motive to not stay put, and if the 'rules' change at all between the two forms, which would be pretty much inevitable upon designing the structure with a planted vs mobile form, it would quickly make the one that has the edge the one that is maintained at all times. Thus, having a difference is IMO generally not a good idea at all. You had an interesting idea of depletion to force the ongoing movement, but I feel that might just be frustrating for the player who feels they've found a great permanent site.

I feel that if a tile is pretty well raided of all collectable 'yields' upon the Nomadic unit stepping onto it (and auto-collecting whatever is there), and then the tile, left alone, slowly recovers its potential thereafter, this would enforce that nomadic units stay on the go at all times (and could make the ability to heal on the move a very critical one.)

I'm not against having gatherers and hunters out and about supporting the accumulation of yields for the Nomadic tribe though. This is very much what I envision. Gatherers would work much like the tribe itself, stepping away from the group and returning with their yields as the group moves along (though they'd collect very little from the land in comparison being a representation of a much smaller group). Hunters would gather from kills, very much how they do not (though I've been considering an alternative method that enforces hunters (and in this scenario Gatherers too) to have a holding capacity and need to return to deliver their collections to the city or Nomadic group for those yields to be counted towards the nation's totals. This function would serve a strong role in limiting the early game map reveal!)


Yields
When AIAndy set up his demo, he had a very interesting take on how yields could be managed via dynamic properties. I haven't yet tested this approach but it's interesting indeed. However, I would challenge the need to define new properties for this. We already have tiles with defined yields, Production, Food, Commerce.

If we simply tracked depletion of those three yields, and recovery, and gave the central unit an ability to collect these yields, then we make it so that when the unit moves onto a tile, it immediately grabs what that tile is usually worth as that round's 'collection'. Rather than production going towards a predefined build, production pts are accumulated and spent via unit missions to generate results. Food accumulates into a decimalized population increase and caps out at a point where the Nomadic unit is then required to either upgrade (if it can due to current tech development) or settle as a permanent city (if it can due to current tech development), suffer from waste, or be spent as part of the cost to produce a new unit (all units would charge some food to represent the population being divided from the main group to become that unit, and would of course cost hammers for the tools the unit puts to use in their role), OR perhaps even split off into two tribes (interaction with rev mechanics and/or events could be interesting to weave in on whether the split off stays as part of the 'nation' or goes its own way.)

Production would also be expendable on creation of improvements. Unlike workers, the main Nomadic unit would not need to spend work time to create an improvement but would have to spend production to do so, and the improvements would be parallel to the buildings and improvements we have now: Berry Bushes, Cave Dwellings, Tidepools, Seed Gathering Camps, etc... Those that are similar to buildings would disappear when a planted city's culture claims that plot as its own and the building would be automatically placed into the city at that point.

Thus the Nomadic Unit can, in a round, move, collect, and possibly improve the land there or produce a unit or discover a tech, the latter three being what would end the unit's turn and unlike all other types of units, the Nomadic Unit would not automatically be at turn's end when it runs out of movement points.

Commerce collected would be used pretty much the same way commerce is now, except not on sliders.

As collected, they could be spent to purchase Culture blocks (which would translate directly into culture for the city once planted and would tally towards leader gains as well as once a certain level is reached be able to infuse the unit's tile with the national culture (keeping animals out) and could be expanded to a one tile radius around a Nomadic Unit as it goes.

And it could be used for research, more on that below.

As for GG pts, I liked the concept of the Great Hunter and believe that would fit the concept here wonderfully as most kills would be animals. But we could also have human/neander barbs add to a Great Warrior pool...

Discovery vs Research
I've given some commentary on this already but I'll reiterate some.

We can't have a city here really so my vision for this is that we create a selection list mission: Research Tech, that enables the unit to spend collected commerce on techs, each of which costing the amount of commerce that tech actually normally costs to a non-nomadic civilization (reduced by the overall research percentage modifier built up for the unit).

I suppose research could also be accumulated by the unit if it has certain promotions (like Knowledge Inheritance which again becomes a building when the unit becomes a city.) So perhaps the unit should have to purchase research chunks like it needs to purchase culture chunks (and possibly espionage too once that has a full role to play...) And maybe gold will be necessary to upkeep and maintain an amount of units past a point.

Your suggestion is not a bad one but it would be horribly difficult and time consuming to implement and would take a lot of tweaking, as you admit. And since we'd like to see Nomadic units being a valid method of play throughout the whole game, this method would be necessary to apply to ALL techs, each having special activities associated with them... ouch. Now, it's possible some kind of hybrid could be made between the two by doing much of what you suggest, the 'commerces types' purchases being made by missions along the lines of the activities you're talking about. This could also lead us to eventually make research not the only way to tech (what if many techs cost culture instead huh? I'm talking about the normal game here too...)

The rest I think I've managed to touch on in the above stuff already. Again, this is just to make some of the vision I have on things clear by pinging off of what you've proposed.
 
Thunderbrd said:
Yields
When AIAndy set up his demo, he had a very interesting take on how yields could be managed via dynamic properties. I haven't yet tested this approach but it's interesting indeed. However, I would challenge the need to define new properties for this. We already have tiles with defined yields, Production, Food, Commerce.

If we simply tracked depletion of those three yields, and recovery, and gave the central unit an ability to collect these yields, then we make it so that when the unit moves onto a tile, it immediately grabs what that tile is usually worth as that round's 'collection'. Rather than production going towards a predefined build, production pts are accumulated and spent via unit missions to generate results. Food accumulates into a decimalized population increase and caps out at a point where the Nomadic unit is then required to either upgrade (if it can due to current tech development) or settle as a permanent city (if it can due to current tech development), suffer from waste, or be spent as part of the cost to produce a new unit (all units would charge some food to represent the population being divided from the main group to become that unit, and would of course cost hammers for the tools the unit puts to use in their role), OR perhaps even split off into two tribes (interaction with rev mechanics and/or events could be interesting to weave in on whether the split off stays as part of the 'nation' or goes its own way.)

Production would also be expendable on creation of improvements. Unlike workers, the main Nomadic unit would not need to spend work time to create an improvement but would have to spend production to do so, and the improvements would be parallel to the buildings and improvements we have now: Berry Bushes, Cave Dwellings, Tidepools, Seed Gathering Camps, etc... Those that are similar to buildings would disappear when a planted city's culture claims that plot as its own and the building would be automatically placed into the city at that point.

Thus the Nomadic Unit can, in a round, move, collect, and possibly improve the land there or produce a unit or discover a tech, the latter three being what would end the unit's turn and unlike all other types of units, the Nomadic Unit would not automatically be at turn's end when it runs out of movement points.

Commerce collected would be used pretty much the same way commerce is now, except not on sliders.

As collected, they could be spent to purchase Culture blocks (which would translate directly into culture for the city once planted and would tally towards leader gains as well as once a certain level is reached be able to infuse the unit's tile with the national culture (keeping animals out) and could be expanded to a one tile radius around a Nomadic Unit as it goes.

And it could be used for research, more on that below.

As for GG pts, I liked the concept of the Great Hunter and believe that would fit the concept here wonderfully as most kills would be animals. But we could also have human/neander barbs add to a Great Warrior pool...
Click to expand...
Why waste time reimplementing mechanics when you can get them for free? There is absolutely no support for that kind of gameplay with the classic yields. Besides it is not a good idea to tie the amount of nomadic yields to what a city would get from the same plot. That would make it hard to balance.


Discovery vs Research
I've given some commentary on this already but I'll reiterate some.

We can't have a city here really so my vision for this is that we create a selection list mission: Research Tech, that enables the unit to spend collected commerce on techs, each of which costing the amount of commerce that tech actually normally costs to a non-nomadic civilization (reduced by the overall research percentage modifier built up for the unit).

I suppose research could also be accumulated by the unit if it has certain promotions (like Knowledge Inheritance which again becomes a building when the unit becomes a city.) So perhaps the unit should have to purchase research chunks like it needs to purchase culture chunks (and possibly espionage too once that has a full role to play...) And maybe gold will be necessary to upkeep and maintain an amount of units past a point.

Your suggestion is not a bad one but it would be horribly difficult and time consuming to implement and would take a lot of tweaking, as you admit. And since we'd like to see Nomadic units being a valid method of play throughout the whole game, this method would be necessary to apply to ALL techs, each having special activities associated with them... ouch. Now, it's possible some kind of hybrid could be made between the two by doing much of what you suggest, the 'commerces types' purchases being made by missions along the lines of the activities you're talking about. This could also lead us to eventually make research not the only way to tech (what if many techs cost culture instead huh? I'm talking about the normal game here too...)
Click to expand...
In the tech demo I made you could collect a lore property which would regrow far slower than the other yield properties. With that lore property and some other property cost you could then generate research points towards techs.
 
AIAndy said:
Why waste time reimplementing mechanics when you can get them for free? There is absolutely no support for that kind of gameplay with the classic yields. Besides it is not a good idea to tie the amount of nomadic yields to what a city would get from the same plot. That would make it hard to balance.
Click to expand...
Not sure what balance problems you're forseeing but I can believe that nevertheless. I'm really going to have to try the system you've made before I comment more on that I think.



In the tech demo I made you could collect a lore property which would regrow far slower than the other yield properties. With that lore property and some other property cost you could then generate research points towards techs.
Click to expand...
How do you choose to spend those points towards techs exactly?

Again... really needing to try your mechanism there! It sounds like we have the basis developed for the most part and just need some additional tweaks at this point.
 
Well the The History of Three Kingdoms one looks like it gets an extra yield when on top of pasture improvements and can make special units when on top of different resources. Such as a special horseman when on top of the horse resource. We should look into doing that with our nomad camp.

For instance stone throwers when on top of Stone resource. It would also be interesting if you you stayed too long on a resource it would disappear. Thus urging you to move to different resources on the map.
 
Ok I think I got it! It won't replace cities but supplement cities. Since most resources are hidden at the beginning of the game we still have the band of homo sapiens that can found your first city. Then at Nomadic Lifestyle you can build a limited number of Nomads. Since you are limited to one city these nomads act as a supplement to the core city. Much like how hunters supplement the city by killing animals.

Nomads can go around and "sit" on different resources. Depending upon the resource a different outcome will happen. What exactly we can determine later. The longer they sit on the resource the more the resource may disappear. Thus its better if you sit on it for a turn and then move on.

Each Nomad will have a limited amount of moves. If the nomad doesn't "refill" by sitting on a resource the nomad will disappear (or possible become immobile). They will also be subject to terrain damage and attacks. Nomads can be captured under DH's Captives stuff.

Nomads could get special promotions that allow them to last longer or even get better bonuses from the resources they sit on. Some idea on what resources could give ...

- Subdued Animals - Such as Bison from Bison resource.
- Pre-Great Farmers - A unit that can plants a specific plant related resource.
- Random Military Unit - Such as a free Stone Spearman.
- Unique Military Unit - Such as a Special Horse unit from a Horse resource.
- Unique Builder Units - These units can build special buildings when brought back to your city.

Also they should have something special when camped on an Indigenous culture.

What do you guys think?
 
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