Merging Doctrines and Traditions from Realism Invictus

I'm all for it. Many of our 'purple' promotions are line promos so we have some options there:
1) The GG makes a building that spawns buildings all over the empire that offer a free 'x' special promo that becomes the prereq of any additional skill promos selected on the same promotion line beyond it. So for example, a GG is used for a Siege Doctrine which gives a free Siege Tradition I promo to all units built in the empire (and we also can make our units pick up the promo free when they visit a city or not at our option) and now that they have Siege Tradition I they can then go on to select Siege Tradition II and III thereafter.

Or

2) We can do all of the above except make Siege Tradition II and III ALSO require another level of the Doctrine be initiated by a GG.

And I'm sure from this we can extrapolate a number more ways to implement.

Might be best to review the AI for the Great Military People units a bit but shouldn't be too critical yet.

From a development perspective I think we should look at each Combat Class (the major ones at least) one at a time and see what we would want to create for those.

The Traditions are only one promotion while the Doctrines enable a line of promotions.


In both cases the Wonder provides a free building in all cities that provides the promotion (tradition) or dummy promotion (doctrine)

I like idea of connection military traditions to cultures example

Imperial Glory (Glorius in C2C i think) to roman
Born in saddle to Mongolian
Sharpshooter to English
and so on

Dancing Hoskuld said:

The Traditions are only one promotion while the Doctrines enable a line of promotions.

Tradition - Archery (Sharpshooter) grants a boost to all archer units of an extra first strike and 10% strength.

Tradition - Melee (Fierce Warriors) grants a boost of 10% strength to all melee units.

Doctrine - Seamanship allows access to three promotions ships that give value for promotion that Combat I through Combat III. Unfortunately it does not replace those 3 so you can double up. This access is given by providing a dummy promotion to the correct units.​

In both cases the Wonder provides a free building in all cities that provides the promotion (tradition) or dummy promotion (doctrine)

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Well then good example, i like this idea then, i say "Go for It."

Have RI combat system with the StackAid mod been a subject for discussion for C2C?
Or is that hard to implement thanx to the sizeup option? If there was a way to combine them so that a unit gets better aid from a unit that are bigger or/and has better quality it might be something to think about.
I now that this dosen´t fall under the category of "doctrines and traditions" but it sounded like the disscusion had wandered of a bit and i wanted to help out
BR Loffas

Dancing Hoskuld said:

The Traditions are only one promotion while the Doctrines enable a line of promotions.

Tradition - Archery (Sharpshooter) grants a boost to all archer units of an extra first strike and 10% strength.

Tradition - Melee (Fierce Warriors) grants a boost of 10% strength to all melee units.

Doctrine - Seamanship allows access to three promotions ships that give value for promotion that Combat I through Combat III. Unfortunately it does not replace those 3 so you can double up. This access is given by providing a dummy promotion to the correct units.​

In both cases the Wonder provides a free building in all cities that provides the promotion (tradition) or dummy promotion (doctrine)

Click to expand...

I do feel, given this example, that it will be important to make sure all effects are balanced between them. You're example of the first two traditions illuminates exactly what I mean as they both give 10% combat modifier but then one gives a first strike and the other doesn't. The melee one could give say an additional 10% vs other Melee for example, to balance out the +1 first strike being given to the archers.

Sounds like in general doctrines and traditions would be balanced against each other as one gives a 'free' promotion while the other only gives access to improved promotions but gives access to more, ultimately.

So would there be a tradition AND a doctrine for each major combat class then?


Oh... one other thing... I wanted to say this yesterday but forgot - As I move forward with the xml on the new naval units, all naval units, new and old, should be getting setup with a Naval Combatant class replacing their Combatant class. This means we'll need to work up at least the rudimentary basics of the Great Admiral at that time. If you could start getting him ready for when this takes place that would be hugely appreciated!

We're sorta on that topic here so I figured I'd take a moment to mention it.

Nimek said:

I like idea of connection military traditions to cultures example

Imperial Glory (Glorius in C2C i think) to roman
Born in saddle to Mongolian
Sharpshooter to English
and so on

Click to expand...

I rather like this idea - making the cultures present control access to a specified Military Great Person to found a particular tradition and/or doctrine would be very 'flavorful'. Could make the whole system a little bit tougher to design though as to do that right it would mean we'd need one for EVERY culture.

However, we could do generic doctrines and traditions AND then also add one or the other that affects all units of the culture - cultures are also a combat class units can possess. Once the ideas project gets underway all units will eventually be assigned a cultural combat class based on the most influential culture in the city they were trained in.

This project seems further and further off in light of AI insufficiencies demanding more immediate attention then game dynamic growth and development but as a long term goal its still in sight I think.

Loffas said:

Have RI combat system with the StackAid mod been a subject for discussion for C2C?
Or is that hard to implement thanx to the sizeup option? If there was a way to combine them so that a unit gets better aid from a unit that are bigger or/and has better quality it might be something to think about.
I now that this dosen´t fall under the category of "doctrines and traditions" but it sounded like the disscusion had wandered of a bit and i wanted to help out
BR Loffas

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It's certainly been brought up and at least a variation of that system is planned, yes. One thing I really need to figure out is how they did such a thing without it being incredibly heavy in terms of processing and potential slowdown... such plot/unit evaluations are challenging to make streamlined. And since I want to help the AI a bit before proceeding with further game adjustments like these, I'd also have to try to figure out how they adjusted the AI to account for this effect first.

Sorry, I miss typed it was extra first strike and 5% strength. The Traditions are balanced in RI. So they are balanced within themselves.

If we go ahead with Traditions then there will need to be a bit of balancing between them and the Achievements and Initial Military Promotions in C2C. IMP are terrain based promotions that are granted to units if you are running the Military Instruction civic. I think that all will need to be done is to halve the boost that the Military and Naval Achievement gives as exp and add a slight reduction in the cost of unit production.

Great Generals/Hunters/Admirals can build both the Traditions and Doctrines.

Cultures already have two heroes each, one of which can build the Achievements and one that can't. I would suggest that the second would be the one that can builds the Cultural Tradition or Doctrine. The other option is just to have that tradition or doctrine as part of the cultural building but that doesn't seem right to me.

I do think we probably need one Tradition for each combat class but only for those units that are not used up in the process so not for missionaries or corporate executives etc.

I am not so sure about the use of the RI Doctrines. The Flaming Arrows one for example I would expect to be part of the equipment promotions and handled differently.

The only reason I have not done a Great Admiral is that I have not found suitable graphics.

There are already far more promotions than I use, so perhaps you could use this as a chance to streamline some of the less useful promotions when adding new ones.

I am hoping that it will make branches of promotions that you will have to decide to open or not.

@all I just had a call from my Mum, she has had a fall and I need to go over and help out. I should be back in mid to late October. I'll try and post some of the stuff I have been working on in my modmod area before I go. Mum does not have internet access.

I'm sorry to hear that, DH.

I know what your going through, i just put my Dad in the Assisted Living Home on 5 Sep, and now he has a -50% turn around and getting waaay worse. But he is 91 going on 92.

strategyonly said:

I know what your going through, i just put my Dad in the Assisted Living Home on 5 Sep, and now he has a -50% turn around and getting waaay worse. But he is 91 going on 92.

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A friend's Mum is that age. She just hurt her back chopping fire wood! My Mum has only just turned 80 but with the hip replacement and now her back she is worried that she may have to go into a home. It does not help that my brother damaged his knee and can't drive at the moment. Oh well "Such is Life.".

Dancing Hoskuld said:

Sorry, I miss typed it was extra first strike and 5% strength. The Traditions are balanced in RI. So they are balanced within themselves.

If we go ahead with Traditions then there will need to be a bit of balancing between them and the Achievements and Initial Military Promotions in C2C. IMP are terrain based promotions that are granted to units if you are running the Military Instruction civic. I think that all will need to be done is to halve the boost that the Military and Naval Achievement gives as exp and add a slight reduction in the cost of unit production.

Great Generals/Hunters/Admirals can build both the Traditions and Doctrines.

Cultures already have two heroes each, one of which can build the Achievements and one that can't. I would suggest that the second would be the one that can builds the Cultural Tradition or Doctrine. The other option is just to have that tradition or doctrine as part of the cultural building but that doesn't seem right to me.

I do think we probably need one Tradition for each combat class but only for those units that are not used up in the process so not for missionaries or corporate executives etc.

I am not so sure about the use of the RI Doctrines. The Flaming Arrows one for example I would expect to be part of the equipment promotions and handled differently.

The only reason I have not done a Great Admiral is that I have not found suitable graphics.

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Surely Sparth/Hydro can help us with the graphics... should be a person and there's been a lot of GG variants.

Agreed that we should NOT design them around equipments. In fact, I say we design them from scratch and use our own thoughts and forum brainstorming rather than trying to take them specifically from RI. We may have some that work ok from that source but I think we can 'do better'.

Agreed on non-combatants (until they stop being one-shot use only units which would be somewhere after the Ideas project is setup.)

I also like the idea of specific cultural ones being generated by one of the cultural heroes - certainly demands a very hard decision between that and the generic achievement actions and using them as a Military instructor. Could add the last degree of depth they really needed.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

I am hoping that it will make branches of promotions that you will have to decide to open or not.

@all I just had a call from my Mum, she has had a fall and I need to go over and help out. I should be back in mid to late October. I'll try and post some of the stuff I have been working on in my modmod area before I go. Mum does not have internet access.

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We're working very patiently through this version I think. My next week is taken up with family mostly as well but I'm sorry for what you're Mum's gone through (and I'm sure the stress it puts on you isn't insignificant as well) and I wish her a speedy recovery.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

The Traditions are only one promotion while the Doctrines enable a line of promotions.

In both cases the Wonder provides a free building in all cities that provides the promotion (tradition) or dummy promotion (doctrine)

Click to expand...

FYI.

As a reminder.

In RI, Traditions are National Wonders - available to every civ (one promotion) and Doctrines are World Wonders, hence the line of promotions.

Sorry to here about your mum DH. Wish her well soon.

DH, I hope everything will be ok soon. Keep up good spirit!

Back to topic:
here is my attempt to create modern admiral texture on modern great general model.

Good Job Sparth!

Should we worry about making earlier ones (or even later ones) ?

Thunderbrd said:

Good Job Sparth!

Should we worry about making earlier ones (or even later ones) ?

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Normaly we can create 3 versions:
early (ancient-medieval times)
middle (renaissance-industrial)
late (moderna and later)

We only have one Great Hunter. Although since he is just a bigger version of one of the normal hunters. I suppose we could make more from the others.

Sparth said:

Normaly we can create 3 versions:
early (ancient-medieval times)
middle (renaissance-industrial)
late (moderna and later)

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That'd be a good place to start. I'd urge a future or Transhuman/Galactic version perhaps.

Note: SOME of the Great General arts may already be better for this role than for the role they take now, particularly in the Renaissance era? So perhaps some of those cases we should be looking for better Generals and reassigning the art to the Admiral. What do you think?

Dancing Hoskuld said:

We only have one Great Hunter. Although since he is just a bigger version of one of the normal hunters. I suppose we could make more from the others.

Click to expand...

The one thing that makes this sorta work is that you probably aren't going to get all that many Great Hunters later in the game since they'd really be predominantly an early game phenomenon. Not to say I'm not looking to make scouts much more valid throughout the eras but at least at the moment, the GH really falls off somewhere amidst the Ancient to Classical eras.


If we can focus in on the Admiral for now we can really make this 'the Naval Expansion' version of C2C when it's all said and done. Next time we can focus in on the Air units I figure.

Ok here are my atempts to create Ancient-Medieval General (I tried to add Viking-look to the model) and Renaissance-Industrial one (looking like Admiral Nelson)