SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw

RRRaskolnikov said:

I don't know how to react frankly... It nearly sounds like you are moking it

Click to expand...

I'm sorry if I came across that way. Maybe my experience is limited. But I am more used to seeing Fish appear on Ocean squares, not Coast squares. You generally get +1 Food at the cost of -1 Commerce.

Getting both +1 Food and Coastal Commerce makes for a great square but is very rare to find... which is what I meant by magical. Replace the word "magical" with the words "really great" and you will get my intended meaning.

Has anyone successfully done a PH start that leverages the early worker by settling City #2 circa T60 and chopping/whipping a granary very early (LC Challenge #1)? To win the challenge, you can't use the Fish tile...

BTW, I'm dubious of rushing to any off-island location before we've done at least a little scouting just to be sure we aren't missing the 5 fish, 3 gold spot just out of sight. So, to add to LC's challenge, try to have an exploring WB out ~T50.

If doable, is this a winner or just another option among many?

RRRaskolnikov said:

There you are confusing. Do you really think exploration doesn't matter in setting up a productive (aka big cities) and fast researching empire (aka big cities, trading)?

Click to expand...

It depends upon what you mean by early exploration. If we're just going to explore the nearby islands so that we can find the best settling locations, then we won't be meeting AIs for a while so we won't be increasing our research via Foreign Trade Routes anytime soon.

Therefore, the only research that we will get will be from within our own empire and thus exploration will have little impact on our early-game research. Even if we do find a Gold Mine, it will take a while for it to get worked and start impacting our empire's research.


As for productive Cities, I think that if we push for really early exploration, there is a small sacrifice in production (45 Hammers per Work Boat that could have been spent elsewhere). The sooner that we send out explorers, the bigger the negative impact on our potential early production.

However, assuming that we are sending out at least one Work Boat to meet the AIs, then we are investing this production in the ability to get Foreign Trade Routes quicker, to possibly be able to piggyback off of AI research sooner (hopefully more than they do to us), and to get more of an understanding of the distance between us and the AIs to help us in deciding how much to REX. The sooner that we invest, the sooner that we can reap these rewards.

Mitchum said:

Has anyone successfully done a PH start that leverages the early worker by settling City #2 circa T60 and chopping/whipping a granary very early (LC Challenge #1)? To win the challenge, you can't use the Fish tile...

BTW, I'm dubious of rushing to any off-island location before we've done at least a little scouting just to be sure we aren't missing the 5 fish, 3 gold spot just out of sight. So, to add to LC's challenge, try to have an exploring WB out ~T50.

If doable, is this a winner or just another option among many?

Click to expand...

So you're asking for a save with an exploring WB at T50, city #2 at T60, and a granary/lighthouse in the capital to boot around T70 or earlier? Assuming our capital is a decent size by T80 (we'll say 4-5), that's a pretty good save, although I'd like to have a second exploring WB going in the other direction.

shyuhe said:

So you're asking for a save with an exploring WB at T50, city #2 at T60, and a granary/lighthouse in the capital to boot around T70 or earlier? Assuming our capital is a decent size by T80 (we'll say 4-5), that's a pretty good save, although I'd like to have a second exploring WB going in the other direction.

Click to expand...

To paraphrase LC, if we can use that chop on the island to get a granary in city #2 quite early, (plus LH/granary in capital as you suggested) he thinks SIP will never catch up...

Agree that having two exploring WBs is ideal.

@Dhoom: No pb.

Your save looks good in many regards indeed.

For sake of discussion, here is my input on your first questions:

1) a
2) a
3) I don't know. THe galley can spot city site number 3
4) neither. Hard to tell. But we need a way into research. GLH isn't here so just spamming cities won't actuall help for long. You talked about binary research. Building a lib right after writing is an example of what can be done to leverage your build order (since u get ultra early writing, might as well build a lib to get 25% on our early commerce asap).

Okay, so I played out my last SIP test with early exploration in mind.

The main theme of that last test was to get an early Granary ASAP and then to leverage a 3-pop-whip for Settler 2. I wanted to be able to do the same thing while also trying to get Work Boat Explorers out. I found that I couldn't maintain the theme AND keep 2 Forests in our big fat cross for 6 Health AND get a second speedy Work Boat explorer out. So, I compromised.

Instead what I did was I got a really early Work Boat Explorer #1 (earlier than all previous test runs), then got a Work Boat Explorer #2 ASAP after building Settler 2. Hopefully, this compromise is an acceptable one for game-comparison purposes.

I still kept that Forest around, too.

Obviously, two Work Boat Explorers don't appear from out of thin air. There is a trade-off that is seen in growth, production, and research.


Some of the resulting compromises are that:
1. Settler 3 and Galley 1 are not whippable until Turn 84, 1900 BC. Settler 3 can actually be whipped a bit sooner, but what's the point without a Galley to put him in, right?

2. Writing comes 2 turns later.

3. City #2 doesn't get settled until Turn 72, 2200 BC (a delay of 5 turns). However, it still can get us that Galley 1 by Turn 84, so maybe it's not that big of a deal to settle this City five turns later if it means getting that much more exploration.

4. As I said, Work Boat Explorer #2 came out a bit later than optimistically targeted. So, the dates of our two permanent Work Boat Explorers are Turn 42, 2950 BC and Turn 73, 2175 BC.


I actually played it out until I could whip both Settler 3 and Galley 1 so that the capital's Hammers would overflow into an almost-complete Monument, with Settler 3 stepping onto the Galley on Turn 87, 1825 BC. I've included that saved game along with the "standard three" saved games.

Sounds good, Dhoom. I'll add it to the list tomorrow for better comparison...

@Dhoom: I liked your previous SIP run better. Nice testing though
Perso I am not a fan of a permanent explorer costing us 5 turns on city 2. (yesterday I tryed another approach getting city 2 t62 but with only one clam tile up, this one was too much behind in research)

whipping settler 3: dunno about creating a big overflow. This needs thinking because we prolly won't want a monument. Could be usefull on a library though. (what I mean is that we don't have necessarily to delay the whip to create overflow... )

At this point, I don't see anything decisive for one over the other:

-> SIP can be ahead a little bit in total hammer/research for first 100turns.
-> PH is decent, have greater exploration (without trade offs like in last test save by Dhoom), and best long term cities (before dhoom says we can switch tiles, i am speaking of double digit size cities).

I suppose i will be happy anyway then

I ran another test this morning. It was similar to mdy #73, but my save did NOT use the Fish (you have to be careful because Sid assigns new citizens to the Fish, even if it isn't netted). Orleans instead borrowed a Clam from the capital. Orleans was settled on T65 and a granary has been completed there already. I will update the table with this and Dhoom's last test shortly.

Upload of file failed for now... I will upload when I can.

EDIT: I can't upload the table either...

I looks like Dhoom's last save is a SIP option with as many exploration turns as most of the PH saves.

@ Dhoom,

I noticed in your last two SIP tests that you pre-cottages the forest before mining the GHill. I think the GHill mine would be better short term, especially if you plan to keep that forest.

Mitchum said:

@ Dhoom,

I noticed in your last two SIP tests that you pre-cottages the forest before mining the GHill. I think the GHill mine would be better short term, especially if you plan to keep that forest.

Click to expand...

Honestly, the Worker was just goofing around at that point. I could have just as easily Fortified him. I guess that I was pre-building a Cottage only to show that it was something possible to do with our Worker actions, instead of just Fortifying the Worker. The Grassland Hills square that you mention only gets within our Cultural Borders within the last couple of turns of the testing (on Turn 79 or 80 or something), so it wouldn't be Mined in time to be able to change any of the results.

In fact, if we want the Worker to board the Galley, like I'd been doing (loading him along with Settler 3), then we might not even mine that Grassland Hills square until later, anyway.

Dhoomstriker said:

The Grassland Hills square that you mention only gets within our Cultural Borders within the last couple of turns of the testing (on Turn 79 or 80 or something), so it wouldn't be Mined in time to be able to change any of the results.

Click to expand...

I had it mined (and roaded) by T82 in my last SIP test. Having it mined allows both cities to have a mine if needed. You may want to check the timing again.

Maybe I am being too "purist" or "eco-friendly," anyway. Maybe it is better to Chop the extra Forest... I've been trying to save it, so that SIP gets the +1 Health advantage, but SIP getting 2 Forest Chops is also another possible advantage to give to it.

In fact, if we're fast with building Galley 1, SIP could feasibly get 3 early big-fat-cross Forest Chops to PH's 1 Forest Chop.

I'm still running more testing by the way, but keeping an up-to-date spreadsheet of actions makes each test run take a long time, so think of me as a slow turtle plodding along. Being sick doesn't allow me to 100% focus on the testing, either.

@Dhoom

If you have time, run a PH tests to get a feel for it. I see that you haven't submitted any yet. It's harder to argue against something you haven't tried...

Mitchum said:

I had it mined (and roaded) by T82 in my last SIP test.

Click to expand...

Okay, fair enough... in my current game, it looks like our Cultural Borders will pop on Turn 76... which you can probably JUST finish Mining by Turn 82.

Mitchum said:

@Dhoom

If you have time, run a PH tests to get a feel for it. I see that you haven't submitted any yet. It's harder to argue against something you haven't tried...

Click to expand...

I intend to. I didn't want to promise it, since I'm sick and my computer time isn't as much as it could normally be, but I do plan to do so.

I actually have a test in the works where I am playing SIP "as if it were" PH. I plan to do the reverse as my first PH test, with the hope that the results will make PH look really favourable. It's just a theory for now, though, and it might not be until a day or two that I can find enough time to do it, but it's still my plan to try.

I've tried some unorthodox PH variants.
PH t4 gets two wbs out early for max exploration before settling Orleans in the mid t60s.
PH t5 has some what less exploration and Paris gains a poppoint when settling Orleans in the mid t60s.
PH t6 tries getting a early galley out (sailing-bw) instead of building two exploring wbs.
PH t8 does this also but improves mine1 before the corn. PH t8 could build settler3 on T76 without poprushing. Or it could build the lh on T71 then whip the settler with overflow into granary.

Latest idea: Since PH is quick to pop5 and 8h, why not leverage that by postponing bw till after sailing and pottery? Poprushing isn't all that good until we have a granary anyway.

----------------

Some thoughts:
1. The warrior and possibly the wkr are available to help the galley with defogging. This gives the galley a lot more freedom to move quickly in some scenarios.
2. SIP makes it possible to settle the western hill or the sw fogged land tile and still use the clams without border expansion. This means we'd have three chances to find a site with two or more resource tiles.

Okay, uploading still not working. PIty.

LowtherCastle said:

I've tried some unorthodox PH variants.

Click to expand...

Sounds interesting. I'm looking forward to seeing them.

LowtherCastle said:

Latest idea: Since PH is quick to pop5 and 8h, why not leverage that by postponing bw till after sailing and pottery? Poprushing isn't all that good until we have a granary anyway.

Click to expand...

Possible, but whipping the granary when it is ~half full is typically a good move. At 8h/turn, it will take 11+ turns to build a granary. It can be whipped for 2 pops in just a couple of turns. It's hard to imagine that slow building it is better, but something to test.

LowtherCastle said:

1. The warrior and possibly the wkr are available to help the galley with defogging. This gives the galley a lot more freedom to move quickly in some scenarios.

Click to expand...

I think the warrior is needed for MP in the capital, unless you never plan to grow beyond 4 IIRC. Worker could do it, but chopping the granary in Orleans seems more important.

LowtherCastle said:

2. SIP makes it possible to settle the western hill or the sw fogged land tile and still use the clams without border expansion. This means we'd have three chances to find a site with two or more resource tiles.

Click to expand...

Good point. That could enable a very fast and very productive off-continent city.

With all of the PH testing but supportive comments about SIP, it's hard to tell where you stand...

EDIT: I hope you have turns labeled in the saves for exploring WBs and such for comparison purposes.

Mitchum said:

I think the warrior is needed for MP in the capital, unless you never plan to grow beyond 4 IIRC. Worker could do it, but chopping the granary in Orleans seems more important.

EDIT: I hope you have turns labeled in the saves for exploring WBs and such for comparison purposes.

Click to expand...

For just those three sw clam sites, galley+warrior needs 5t, whereas a wb needs 7-9t depending on the layout. Furthermore, if there happens to be an inland tile, the wb won't defog it at all. The warrior is free to wander up until pop5 after the first poprush. This gives us some flexibility in terms of settling. Better to find the best site than rush, especially in the case of PH because Pottery isn't even in anyway. For that matter, the wkr's in no hurry to chop an Orleans forest if we want to use that forest to get 2hpt, which is likely. The worker is awesome for galley defogging.

All our cities will need warriors eventually, of course.

I haven't been following your system at all for my saves. Sorry. What I have been doing is exploring, so the defoguerie speaks for itself. I'm just testing ideas. WHen I find something I like, then it's time to fine-tune it.

LowtherCastle said:

PH t6 tries getting a early galley out (sailing-bw) instead of building two exploring wbs.

Click to expand...

Could you hook up both clams before starting the galley? I have tested this tech path as well and my timing was a bit off regarding those builds. I couldn't get them without delaying city 2. I wonder how you did it.