Hunter/Gathering Nomadic start at Game Open project

ls612 said:
I like all of this discussion about the nomad start, and think it really could go somewhere, but we need to have a focus and a priority after the Freeze, and I think that should be Multi-Maps. We've been hyping them for almost a year, I think it's high time to add them. Nomads could then be added during the V29 cycle, in addition to content for the Galactic Era. How does that sound?
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While Multi-Maps is an interesting feature, with the current state of the game only a small minority of players will reach the time that you get even to the first of them. Nomadic start on the other hand will be played by all (that want to activate the option).

Besides, there is a significant difference in the implementation effort. While nomadic start will take maybe one cycle to implement properly, Multi-Maps will need several.
 
AIAndy said:
While Multi-Maps is an interesting feature, with the current state of the game only a small minority of players will reach the time that you get even to the first of them. Nomadic start on the other hand will be played by all (that want to activate the option).

Besides, there is a significant difference in the implementation effort. While nomadic start will take maybe one cycle to implement properly, Multi-Maps will need several.
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Correct. However, once the code, UI, and mapscripts for Multi-Maps are in content for them can be added at whatever pace we feel like, so getting that hard part out of the way sooner than later is probably not a bad idea. And I suspect Nomad start will also take significant implementation effort (at least for the AI). People have been asking us about Multi-Maps for almost a year now since we first suggested them, and I personally am afraid that if we keep procrastinating on them that we'll never get them, which would be an colossal shame.
 
I agree with your point that we need to get the ball rolling on multi-maps. But consider that not ALL of us can really do much to implement there. Some of us must then take up different tasks and this is one we've been equally looking forward to. The poll result on this was just a few votes less for this one over multi-maps so if some of us have the skills to develop this but not enough to work on MMs then why not develop this at the same time?

I realize that Koshling's AI talents would be useful, if not necessary to wrap things up there. But surely we can work on the structure of the H/G project after our next release? I've got a lot to accomplish before then anyhow, and perhaps we'd be able to establish some good AI without Koshling as well, but my point here is that I'm not seeing any cause to scream 'put on the breaks!' here.



Some more planning ideas:
  • Shouldn't our Band units have a limited amount of maximum storage space for some of these properties? That would give us some tech and promo benefits to work with to give them the ability to expand their carrying capacity.
  • And what about maintaining a smaller Population count? It seems to me that during this time, the limited population would be important to manage more closely. Unit purchases should cost some of that population, and to become a settled 'city' we should need to build our bands up to a certain population point.
  • Furthermore, population could get to a point where it becomes a good idea to split them off into those 'minor band' units discussed earlier. (Perhaps they could eventually 'rebel' and become their own new civilization entirely... especially if you get them wandering off too far from the main group.)
By the way... I never got any direct feedback on the previous ideas I posted... what do y'all think about those?
 
Thunderbrd said:
I agree with your point that we need to get the ball rolling on multi-maps. But consider that not ALL of us can really do much to implement there. Some of us must then take up different tasks and this is one we've been equally looking forward to. The poll result on this was just a few votes less for this one over multi-maps so if some of us have the skills to develop this but not enough to work on MMs then why not develop this at the same time?

I realize that Koshling's AI talents would be useful, if not necessary to wrap things up there. But surely we can work on the structure of the H/G project after our next release? I've got a lot to accomplish before then anyhow, and perhaps we'd be able to establish some good AI without Koshling as well, but my point here is that I'm not seeing any cause to scream 'put on the breaks!' here.

<snip>
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Sure, if different people work on different projects that should be fine. However, we do need to have more focus in our release cycle development. But given how many hands we have now I see no reason why we can't make Multi-Maps and Nomad Start a dual priority and focus for development. We just need to actually keep that focus. ;)
 
Sorry if any of this has been already suggested but I was thinking about this today and I haven't been following this discussion at all. Here is my two cents (and what I was thinking about today)

I was a bit disappointed the first time I played C2C because I had imagined that you started out with nomads that didn't settle until you reached a certain tech level. I thought it would be an interesting and uniquely different mode of gameplay that would give players some time to find an ideal spot to settle. It would also befit the whole "Neanderthal" techless, hunting/gathering society on which "band of homo sapiens" is based. In a way this could be a totally different way to approach the pre-ancient era. I realize that this will take some considerable changes so I am just suggesting some ideas at this point for you to mull over.

  1. Each player is given a main "nomad" (national unit). That unit can create a camp... as has been suggested, a temporary structure that in several ways acts like a city.
  2. The camp can be established near a food resource and/or river and can grow in population. This population (along with work) can create a limited set of units such as hunters, gatherers, a primitive scout, and a primitive warrior (less primitive with new techs).
  3. The camp can produce science. The only "buildings" that can be built are "myths" that help with science and early, temporary edifices (such as a sand pit) that can aid in other things but are only temporary in nature.
  4. Edifices must be rebuilt in a newly settled camp. Myths get converted to technologies that cannot be researched to allow a nation to keep the bonuses that they provide when the city is disbanded. (Creating these as technologies could also be used to help balance later starts by just granting the technologies rather than worrying about which buildings need to be built).
  5. Camps can grow in population (to a max of 3). They can also be disbanded. When they are disbanded, the player gets one band of homo sapiens for each population in the camp. A maximum of 5 (or some such number) bands can exist. If the maximum number is reached when a city is disbanded, the overflow gets converted into one hunter and one gatherer for each population.
  6. Camps affect the surroundings only inasmuch as a resource is not replaceable. A camp with a population of one lives in near balance with the resources around it (replacement rate is slightly less than consumption rate). However, once a camp becomes larger than 1, since "gatherers" do not plant, the extra population remove bonuses more quickly over time, forcing the camp to move elsewhere to find food.
  7. Both random events and the climate engine (once it is finished) can produce somewhat random appearances of new biological bonuses (and non biological bonuses at a vastly slower rate) which can replace consumed bonuses. Keep in mind the only reason that this is viable is because of the vast amount of time involved. Once we reach the Ancient era, such production of new bonuses will only happen once every couple of thousand years (probably 5-10 thousand).
  8. IMO This type of setup would work well with two new features: A) Fading fog of war (due to early humans forgetting); and B) Fading knowledge of other civilizations they encounter. Over time, contact/knowledge of a civilization is lost if contact is not maintained.
  9. We could also have a new type of "goody hut"... ruins/artifacts that have a chance to eventually appear when a camp is disbanded. The granted technology would have to be something that the civilization that occupied it already had (however... this could be one of the un-researchable myth techs).

With the discovery of sedentary lifestyle, bands of homo sapiens get converted into settlers (or gain the "settle" ability) to start a real civilization.
 
There's some gems in there for sure. My favorite:
IMO This type of setup would work well with two new features: A) Fading fog of war (due to early humans forgetting); and B) Fading knowledge of other civilizations they encounter. Over time, contact/knowledge of a civilization is lost if contact is not maintained
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We've discussed the 'camp' concept and have tested a mod that did something similar. I think the 'keep the tribe moving' option is much better. I would urge you to at least skim through this thread. We've got a lot of what I think are very good plans here. But many concepts you introduce are good to consider for the project as well.
 
@primem0ver good ideas. Only I really hate the Fading fog of war as I have seen it implemented elsewhere eg KROME.

We would need to change the mechanic of goody huts converting to Indigenous People in the prehistoric era also. Unless we consider them pastoral in nature, following herds that only move a short distance.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
@primem0ver good ideas. Only I really hate the Fading fog of war as I have seen it implemented elsewhere eg KROME.

We would need to change the mechanic of goody huts converting to Indigenous People in the prehistoric era also. Unless we consider them pastoral in nature, following herds that only move a short distance.
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I agree about hating the fading fog of war idea, I like knowing roughly how my continent is shaped as a player for game reasons, even though I realize it is slightly unrealistic.
 
My biggest problem was that my scouts kept re-exploring areas and completely missing all the goody huts. I think that instead of this we should look at the range that units can move instead. Ie supply lines again. ;)
 
Perhaps the Fading Fog of War should be an option then since some of you don't like the concept. But honestly... it really should work like that. Additionally, if all civs have lost visibility on a tile, a slight chance for a goody hut to form there should exist.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
@primem0ver good ideas. Only I really hate the Fading fog of war as I have seen it implemented elsewhere eg KROME.

<snip>
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I agree that jtanner28's Returning Fog of War, (don't know that I would call it fading), was a big pain for several reasons. As the tile didn't grey out but went back to being totally black, 1st kind of checker board pattern then in bigger blocks till it was all Black again. It was real easy to lose track of what a coastline looked like on any standard map or larger. And as DH said your scouts were just plain lost most of the time. Unless you built a bunch and staged them to keep visibility. And your scouts always seemed to walk right into that tiger as their visibility ability was just 1 tile.

Vincentz also used a similar mechanism in his VIP mod.

JosEPh
 
Thunderbrd said:
Perhaps the Fading Fog of War should be an option then since some of you don't like the concept. But honestly... it really should work like that. Additionally, if all civs have lost visibility on a tile, a slight chance for a goody hut to form there should exist.
Click to expand...

As Joseph said - the way it has been implemented, in KROME, makes no sense. A plot will go back to unknown, so far so good, but it is not plots next to it that go unknown next but plots far away. It doesn't even seem to be related to the last time anyone visited the plots. It is also fairly easily circumvented by just having 5-10 times the number of scouts you usually have.

I have seen one game that handles "forgetfulness" OK and it did it by changing the terrain seen in the fog of war by moving a mountain or mountain range one plot in some direction. In fact it sometimes inserted a whole row of terrains making everything appear much further away than it was. I don't see that happening in C2C.
 
Hmm... so perhaps an increasing likelihood of being forgotten that starts from the moment the tile goes back into the unseen. Say, each tile has a 1% cumulative chance of being forgotten each round in remains in the gray zone. This would mean that those spaces that its been the longest since you've been there would gradually slip back into the unknown (and this is only an effect that would take place until Cartography sets in.) Again... should still be an option, because personally I think it'd be entirely optimal to have such an effect at the beginning stages of the game. Gives a reason to keep exploring, even though you've already been there. The game loses something when you have the whole continent explored.

I also NEVER automate my explorers... too fun to watch the reveal. Additionally, disappearing territories would indicate where you haven't been recently, which is also likely the best hunting grounds.
 
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